Pages: 1

 

2007-07-04 13:21:42
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina
I noticed in another thread that the primary point of contention in the debate over how to fight the War on Terror revolves around whether or not Islam is to blame for extremism.  As TheDarkRaven pointed out, suicide bombers may be best described as free radicals, since the ones who call themselves Muslim are actually defying many key principles of Islam by killing themselves and others for evil reasons.

Yet, there comes a point where you must ask yourself, if the majority of an extremist group is coming from one religion, can't the institution of that religion be somewhat blamed?  If terrorists are primarily recruiting Muslims, can't this connection to Islam indicate some inherent problems with the predominant interpretations and customs of Islam?

As TheDarkRaven mentioned, the concept of Jihad allows Muslims to go to war to protect their culture and people if certain conditions are met, and since such conditions are highly subjective, can we not say that, perhaps, the concept of Jihad itself is problematic and simply antiquated at this point?

Every religion evolves through time, and this sometimes necessitates significant changes to religious doctrine.  Perhaps, Jihad should be amended or revoked from Islam altogether.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-07-04 13:32:01)

2007-07-04 13:26:16
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6838|The Gem Saloon
jihad wasnt a pillar of islam until the wahabists had their say.


its just a shitty deal.
i get the feeling that the leaders of these radical groups are pretty well educated....so much so, that they know they need to recruit people that dont have a chance in life. no education, no way out of the living situation they are in.
isnt there a quote about a lack of an education breeds slavery or something along those lines??
its almost like the religion, or parts of it at least, have stopped evolving, and have stopped wanting to make progress.
2007-07-04 13:28:18
TheDarkRaven
ATG's First Disciple
+263|7068|Birmingham, UK

Turquoise wrote:

I noticed in another thread that the primary point of contention in the debate over how to fight the War on Terror revolves around whether or not Islam is to blame for extremism.  As some posters have pointed out, suicide bombers may be best described as free radicals, since the ones who call themselves Muslim are actually defying many key principles of Islam by killing themselves and others for evil reasons.

Yet, there comes a point where you must ask yourself, if the majority of an extremist group is coming from one religion, can't the institution of that religion be somewhat blamed?  If terrorists are primarily recruiting Muslims, can't this connection to Islam indicate some inherent problems with the predominant interpretations and customs of Islam?

As another poster mentioned, the concept of Jihad allows Muslims to go to war to protect their culture and people if certain conditions are met, and since such conditions are highly subjective, can we not say that, perhaps, the concept of Jihad itself is problematic and simply antiquated at this point?

Every religion evolves through time, and this sometimes necessitates significant changes to religious doctrine.  Perhaps, Jihad should be amended or revoked from Islam altogether.

What do you guys think?
Wait a minute... aren't you taking all that information on Islam from me?

To add, Jihad isn't a pillar of Islam (have a cookie, Parker).

It is highly valued in Islam, and must stay an important part of the religion. I'm tired and can't really add to this or argue for it to remain in Islam.
To conclude, then, I'll just say that all religions are inherently flawed and so they can always be manipulated beyond what they are in actuality. OR something like that (I really am tired).

All the best, and goodnight,
Andy

P.S. I might come back to this tomorrow, sometime.

Last edited by TheDarkRaven (2007-07-04 13:31:34)

2007-07-04 13:29:31
buLLet_t00th
Mr. Boombastic
+178|6886|Stealth City, UK

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I noticed in another thread that the primary point of contention in the debate over how to fight the War on Terror revolves around whether or not Islam is to blame for extremism.  As some posters have pointed out, suicide bombers may be best described as free radicals, since the ones who call themselves Muslim are actually defying many key principles of Islam by killing themselves and others for evil reasons.

Yet, there comes a point where you must ask yourself, if the majority of an extremist group is coming from one religion, can't the institution of that religion be somewhat blamed?  If terrorists are primarily recruiting Muslims, can't this connection to Islam indicate some inherent problems with the predominant interpretations and customs of Islam?

As another poster mentioned, the concept of Jihad allows Muslims to go to war to protect their culture and people if certain conditions are met, and since such conditions are highly subjective, can we not say that, perhaps, the concept of Jihad itself is problematic and simply antiquated at this point?

Every religion evolves through time, and this sometimes necessitates significant changes to religious doctrine.  Perhaps, Jihad should be amended or revoked from Islam altogether.

What do you guys think?
Wait a minute... aren't you taking all that information on Islam from me?
I think he is
2007-07-04 13:30:01
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I noticed in another thread that the primary point of contention in the debate over how to fight the War on Terror revolves around whether or not Islam is to blame for extremism.  As some posters have pointed out, suicide bombers may be best described as free radicals, since the ones who call themselves Muslim are actually defying many key principles of Islam by killing themselves and others for evil reasons.

Yet, there comes a point where you must ask yourself, if the majority of an extremist group is coming from one religion, can't the institution of that religion be somewhat blamed?  If terrorists are primarily recruiting Muslims, can't this connection to Islam indicate some inherent problems with the predominant interpretations and customs of Islam?

As another poster mentioned, the concept of Jihad allows Muslims to go to war to protect their culture and people if certain conditions are met, and since such conditions are highly subjective, can we not say that, perhaps, the concept of Jihad itself is problematic and simply antiquated at this point?

Every religion evolves through time, and this sometimes necessitates significant changes to religious doctrine.  Perhaps, Jihad should be amended or revoked from Islam altogether.

What do you guys think?
Wait a minute... aren't you taking all that information on Islam from me?
Yes...  I couldn't remember your name...  I'll fix it... 
2007-07-04 13:31:04
kingofkolt
Member
+17|6667|Boston, MA, USA
As I understand the situation, a lot of countries that feel that they are suffering oppression are Islamic countries. Therefore, just by virtue of the fact that they perhaps feel bonded by their suffering, they join in committing terrorist acts. I don't think it would be fair to say that the religion itself is at fault. For example, there are Christian extremists that most of the world never hears about because they don't actually go killing people. But they do harmful things, just in other ways. In Kansas, USA there is a church called Westboro Baptist Church that has taken it upon itself to attend funerals of American soldiers and protest and say how that soldier is going to hell for serving a country that allows homosexuality (for whatever reason, anti-homosexuality is their big thing). The thing is, their doctrine and actions are distinctively anti-Christian and anti-Biblical, yet they still call themselves Christians. But I don't think people would say that those people represent Christianity overall. There are always bad apples... I think in this case, Islam's bad apples have gotten a lot of media publicity and kind of taken off from there.

As for the teaching of Jihad, I'm really not very familiar with it. But from what you say about it, it kind of reminds me of the teaching Mormons used to have, which was that African-Americans were the cursed descendants of Cain (the murderous son of Adam and Eve). As our country went through its civil rights movement, though, and America was less sympathetic to bigotry, the Mormons had to officially renounce that belief. It would probably be beneficial for Muslims to consider doing the same thing for the concept of Jihad.
2007-07-04 13:34:16
kingofkolt
Member
+17|6667|Boston, MA, USA

Parker wrote:

its just a shitty deal.
i get the feeling that the leaders of these radical groups are pretty well educated....so much so, that they know they need to recruit people that dont have a chance in life. no education, no way out of the living situation they are in.
isnt there a quote about a lack of an education breeds slavery or something along those lines??
its almost like the religion, or parts of it at least, have stopped evolving, and have stopped wanting to make progress.
You're exactly right. Fringe religious groups target people that are unstable or hurt or somehow don't have it all together and are looking for a source of stability. I (and people I know) have done some research on cults due to having some unfortunate personal experience with one. And it certainly attracted people who were vulnerable. And once a vulnerable person was in, it kind of gets a stranglehold on that person through manipulation, which is made easier when the person is less educated.
2007-07-04 13:34:30
TheDarkRaven
ATG's First Disciple
+263|7068|Birmingham, UK

Turquoise wrote:

Yes...  I couldn't remember your name...  I'll fix it... 
Thanks. Since not many people seem to know much about Muslims and Islam here (there are a few token Muslims and some fellow studiers of the religion), I'd probably consider myself a semi-expert on the religion for the forum.
Ever need to know anything about Islam, don't hesitate to ask.

EDIT: And see my lengthened edited post above. G'night for now.

Last edited by TheDarkRaven (2007-07-04 13:35:25)

2007-07-04 13:37:38
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Yes...  I couldn't remember your name...  I'll fix it... 
Thanks. Since not many people seem to know much about Muslims and Islam here (there are a few token Muslims and some fellow studiers of the religion), I'd probably consider myself a semi-expert on the religion for the forum.
Ever need to know anything about Islam, don't hesitate to ask.

EDIT: And see my lengthened edited post above. G'night for now.
Will do...  one of my best friends is an Islamic Studies student (he'll be getting his Masters soon) who is living in Istanbul right now.  I've asked him about a few things, but it's good to have a scholar here as well.
2007-07-04 13:41:21
TheDarkRaven
ATG's First Disciple
+263|7068|Birmingham, UK

Turquoise wrote:

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Yes...  I couldn't remember your name...  I'll fix it... 
Thanks. Since not many people seem to know much about Muslims and Islam here (there are a few token Muslims and some fellow studiers of the religion), I'd probably consider myself a semi-expert on the religion for the forum.
Ever need to know anything about Islam, don't hesitate to ask.

EDIT: And see my lengthened edited post above. G'night for now.
Will do...  one of my best friends is an Islamic Studies student (he'll be getting his Masters soon) who is living in Istanbul right now.  I've asked him about a few things, but it's good to have a scholar here as well.
You are very privileged, and I must thank you for your high praise. But this really must be the end! Till we talk again. PM me if you need anything.
2007-07-04 13:44:15
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7025|SE London

Parker wrote:

jihad wasnt a pillar of islam until the wahabists had their say.


its just a shitty deal.
i get the feeling that the leaders of these radical groups are pretty well educated....so much so, that they know they need to recruit people that dont have a chance in life. no education, no way out of the living situation they are in.
isnt there a quote about a lack of an education breeds slavery or something along those lines??
its almost like the religion, or parts of it at least, have stopped evolving, and have stopped wanting to make progress.
I couldn't agree more.

It is those in charge, the Mullahs, the radical clerics, who all live quite comfortably, that enforce and perpetuate these stereotypes of Islam by exploiting the vulnerable.

I'd class most suicide bombers as being stupid, deluded and vulnerable people who have been exploited to further the agenda of a few (who you don't see blowing themselves up) senior radicals. These pricks who send them out to blow stuff up - now they are pure fucking evil.
2007-07-04 13:46:09
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

kingofkolt wrote:

Parker wrote:

its just a shitty deal.
i get the feeling that the leaders of these radical groups are pretty well educated....so much so, that they know they need to recruit people that dont have a chance in life. no education, no way out of the living situation they are in.
isnt there a quote about a lack of an education breeds slavery or something along those lines??
its almost like the religion, or parts of it at least, have stopped evolving, and have stopped wanting to make progress.
You're exactly right. Fringe religious groups target people that are unstable or hurt or somehow don't have it all together and are looking for a source of stability. I (and people I know) have done some research on cults due to having some unfortunate personal experience with one. And it certainly attracted people who were vulnerable. And once a vulnerable person was in, it kind of gets a stranglehold on that person through manipulation, which is made easier when the person is less educated.
Agreed... but what makes this rather scary is looking at the people who don't fit the desperate and uneducated description.

Look at the doctors who did the (thankfully unsuccessful) bombings in the U.K. in the last week or two.  They had no economic reason to resort to such extremism, and they certainly weren't uneducated.
2007-07-04 13:48:32
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

TheDarkRaven wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

TheDarkRaven wrote:


Thanks. Since not many people seem to know much about Muslims and Islam here (there are a few token Muslims and some fellow studiers of the religion), I'd probably consider myself a semi-expert on the religion for the forum.
Ever need to know anything about Islam, don't hesitate to ask.

EDIT: And see my lengthened edited post above. G'night for now.
Will do...  one of my best friends is an Islamic Studies student (he'll be getting his Masters soon) who is living in Istanbul right now.  I've asked him about a few things, but it's good to have a scholar here as well.
You are very privileged, and I must thank you for your high praise. But this really must be the end! Till we talk again. PM me if you need anything.
No prob...  get some sleep.
2007-07-04 13:51:59
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Bertster7 wrote:

It is those in charge, the Mullahs, the radical clerics, who all live quite comfortably, that enforce and perpetuate these stereotypes of Islam by exploiting the vulnerable.

I'd class most suicide bombers as being stupid, deluded and vulnerable people who have been exploited to further the agenda of a few (who you don't see blowing themselves up) senior radicals. These pricks who send them out to blow stuff up - now they are pure fucking evil.
It makes you wonder why such people exist.  Why would people enjoy sending the desperate to their deaths, and how come they are so good at it?

I guess, in a twisted sort of way, it also gives you an idea of why and how some people rise to power in a government and start wars so often.

Some people who join the military can be described as being similarly as desperate as the people recruited for terror.  That's not to say all or even the majority of military people are that way, just some of them....
2007-07-04 13:57:47
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7025|SE London

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

It is those in charge, the Mullahs, the radical clerics, who all live quite comfortably, that enforce and perpetuate these stereotypes of Islam by exploiting the vulnerable.

I'd class most suicide bombers as being stupid, deluded and vulnerable people who have been exploited to further the agenda of a few (who you don't see blowing themselves up) senior radicals. These pricks who send them out to blow stuff up - now they are pure fucking evil.
It makes you wonder why such people exist.  Why would people enjoy sending the desperate to their deaths, and how come they are so good at it?

I guess, in a twisted sort of way, it also gives you an idea of why and how some people rise to power in a government and start wars so often.

Some people who join the military can be described as being similarly as desperate as the people recruited for terror.  That's not to say all or even the majority of military people are that way, just some of them....
It's the two extreme ends of the scale. The exploiter and the exploitee - with all us normal people in the middle.

2007-07-04 14:01:31
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

It is those in charge, the Mullahs, the radical clerics, who all live quite comfortably, that enforce and perpetuate these stereotypes of Islam by exploiting the vulnerable.

I'd class most suicide bombers as being stupid, deluded and vulnerable people who have been exploited to further the agenda of a few (who you don't see blowing themselves up) senior radicals. These pricks who send them out to blow stuff up - now they are pure fucking evil.
It makes you wonder why such people exist.  Why would people enjoy sending the desperate to their deaths, and how come they are so good at it?

I guess, in a twisted sort of way, it also gives you an idea of why and how some people rise to power in a government and start wars so often.

Some people who join the military can be described as being similarly as desperate as the people recruited for terror.  That's not to say all or even the majority of military people are that way, just some of them....
It's the two extreme ends of the scale. The exploiter and the exploitee - with all us normal people in the middle.

Yep...  indeed...  It's times like these when I relate really well to Pat Condell.

Anyway, I'm still puzzled by why, of all people, a bunch of doctors were behind the Glasgow stuff.  Why doctors?
2007-07-04 14:20:55
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7065|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


It makes you wonder why such people exist.  Why would people enjoy sending the desperate to their deaths, and how come they are so good at it?

I guess, in a twisted sort of way, it also gives you an idea of why and how some people rise to power in a government and start wars so often.

Some people who join the military can be described as being similarly as desperate as the people recruited for terror.  That's not to say all or even the majority of military people are that way, just some of them....
It's the two extreme ends of the scale. The exploiter and the exploitee - with all us normal people in the middle.

Yep...  indeed...  It's times like these when I relate really well to Pat Condell.

Anyway, I'm still puzzled by why, of all people, a bunch of doctors were behind the Glasgow stuff.  Why doctors?
Because at the end of the day anybody can be brainwashed. Most of them came from the Middle East so probably grew up with that small inside hatred anyway, even though they came here and were doctors. Weird but shit happens.

 

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