BF2S Forums Is America really the land of opportunity you tell me your thoughts

CameronPoe wrote:

It's a land of opportunity, not the land of opportunity. A lot of countries are 'lands of opportunity'.

Damn you!

That's exactly what I was going to say.

Huge spiders my ass.  Have you been to Okinawa?

Cam's right...  America is not the only land of opportunity.  The First World offers a variety of lands of opportunity, each of which is preferable to different lifestyles, cultures, and needs.

wah1188 wrote:

We talked about how cool it would be to live in America since food is so cheap and how you ain't got to go far to holiday the different states are like different countries in themselves. Also the huge houses you can get, not to mention the perfect weather.

Pretty much...  although the weather isn't so great in some parts.  For example, Florida may be a popular place to vacation in, but they get a ton of hurricanes.

wah1188 wrote:

Then we thought isn't the community more divided and unintentional racial segregation more prominent, I mean there are pretty much all white areas and all black areas.

It really depends on where you live in America.  Some areas show lingering signs of segregation, while others are far more integrated.

wah1188 wrote:

We also talked about how if your poor its really bad, if your rich its really good and how theres a huge range between social economic classes.

Very true...  We are far less socialized here than in most of the First World.  But yeah, this is the place to be if you're rich.

wah1188 wrote:

Yes its the same in all countries don't get me wrong. I was just thinking is it really bad to be poor in America compared to the U.K we get benefits and stuff here so we can still at least eat, clothe ourselves and live on a day to day basis.
From what I know you guys give out state benefits for a certain amount of time then your off right? I'd also think your healthcare is quite good but thats due to having to pay for it but how to poor families do without it if they simply can't afford the medicine or operation.

Yep...  Our national healthcare plan is: "Don't get sick."

wah1188 wrote:

As you all know the U.K has a free health care system and private, some of the economists will tell you its needed because health care is a merit good and is under consumed by the market. Due to this we pay taxes which go into funding this service are your taxes a lot lower, because it sure does suck to look at your paycheck before and after tax here.

Our taxes aren't as low as you would expect.  On average, we pay about the same in taxes as Canadians do.  Yet, they get more social services in return.  We spend about the same amount on the military as we do on health and human services here.

So yeah, we have a kickass military, but it comes at a high price.

wah1188 wrote:

Would you feel a bit annoyed paying for fat bills gastric bypass, even though he spends all his money on food but cannot "afford" his operation.
I just feel a little cheated that the working are punished by the government with taxes and yet the jobless are leeching off us.

Understandable....  But here, the biggest leeches are special interest groups and corporations.  We give more to the rich than to the poor.  Pretty fucked up, eh?...

wah1188 wrote:

Some of you may read this and take offense I'm sorry but this is just my thoughts and views, I don't want personal attacks I want your views on what I know. If its correct or did it get mixed up over the sea. I guess I would like to know more about living in America from a Americans point of view.

Your assumptions are actually pretty accurate.

wah1188 wrote:

Also the college thing you guys have to pay loads to go right, we get loans and grants off the government to help us. Are the poor denied education even though they have the ability I know there are scholarships but they can only give out so much.

This is highly dependent on the state you live in.  Most of the funding that goes to our public education comes from state and local governments rather than the federal government.  As a result, some states budget things very well, while others are terrible.

Thankfully, my state (North Carolina) spends a lot of tax money on its collegiate system.  Our out-of-state tuition (the amount you pay as a student not from NC) is cheaper than many states' in-state tuition (the amount you pay for college if you live in the state that the school is in).  Other states rely more on what each student pays into the system, which results in higher tuition rates.

wah1188 wrote:

The thing I want to know is in America if you got the balls and the heart is there really the opportunity to become successful?
Oh and gross you guys get huge spiders over there .
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=79511

Ambition probably does get you farther in America than in many other nations.  This is because our business taxes are comparably lower than most other First World nations.  In effect, it's cheaper to run a business here than in most First World countries.

This basically leads many people to believe that social mobility is higher in America than in most countries.  This is somewhat true, however, like most other countries, some of your success still depends on who you know.

As for spiders...  lol....  I think Australia's got us beat by a longshot.

Idk I've never been to the United Kingdom before.

Adams_BJ wrote:

Australia's up there for being a good country economically and such.

Oh, and by the way, we get bigger spiders too

The spiders are a bad thing dammit!

America is a country where you are free to attempt prosperity with fewer restrictions compared to many other countries.  But there is little to no safety nets if you fuck up.

We have Medicare that will allow you to still have emergency health care (you cannot be denied emergency health care).

We have food kitchens that will feed you for free (most are private organizations).

I know there is 1 city that is doing a pilot program to house the homeless, but most help for the homeless is done privately.

College is VERY expensive.  If you goto state colleges then you can pay <$3,000 per year.  If you goto private colleges you can expect to pay $20-$40,000/year.

If you live in a poor neighborhood then your local public school will probably be bad.  Conversely if you live in a well-to-do neighborhood the public schools are generally better.  Almost all education institutions are controlled by liberal (i.e. its required to watch Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' as part of a science class).

We have relatively low taxes compared to most countries, but we do have a progressive tax system (the more you earn the more are you taxed), but its capped at 35% federally (in California its an additional 10%).  Those who make between $50-$199,000/year pay a greater % of their taxes than the rich who are classified as anyone making more than $200,000/year.



There is no national healthcare system yet - almost all the democratic canidates for president want it though.

About 5% of the population are illegal aliens.  Since we don't want a 'police state' similar to Germany during the earlier part of the last century the police do not have the right to 'ask for your papers'.  Some cities like L.A. specifically do not report illegal criminals to the government (its not a requirement to do so yet).

Different aspect, and totally stealing Turquoise's format.

wah1188 wrote:

We talked about how cool it would be to live in America since food is so cheap and how you ain't got to go far to holiday the different states are like different countries in themselves. Also the huge houses you can get, not to mention the perfect weather.

You've got a good start here. Food is indeed cheap. And good. Nothing against you Brits, but I was hard pressed to find a good cut of beef the whole time I was there. You can get an excellent, prime cut KC Strip at the grocery store for about 10 bucks a pound (5 if they're on sale that week). Foodstuff wise, we're MUCH cheaper here than in Europe. It helps that a lot of it comes from our country.

Vacation wise, you are also right. There is much to see in this vast land. No matter where you are, something totally different can be found, and you never have to leave the country.

Real estate is also wonderful here. I don't know if you caught the thread from a couple of weeks ago, but here's an example:


Price: $1,700,000

NEIGHBORHOOD:
CHENAL DOWNS
Bedrooms: 5
Bathrooms: 5.5
Approx Sq Ft: 6,574


Price: $975,000

Bedrooms: 4
Bathrooms: 4
Approx Sq Ft: 4,877


rice: $834,900

Bedrooms: 5
Bathrooms: 4.5
Approx Sq Ft: 5,456


Or, more realistically:


$289,900

Bedrooms: 5
Full Baths: 3
Half Baths: 1


$282,000

Bedrooms: 4
Full Baths: 2
Half Baths: 1


$279,500

Bedrooms: 4
Full Baths: 3


As far as the perfect weather, well, that's really dependent on where you live. Southern California might be 76 degrees year round, but you run the risk of an earthquake destroying everything you own. Where I live, right in the middle of the country, gets hot as hell in the summer (38-40 C highs) and cold as shit in the winter ( -15 to -20 C lows). Spring and fall make it all worthwhile, though.

wah1188 wrote:

Then we thought isn't the community more divided and unintentional racial segregation more prominent, I mean there are are pretty much all white areas and all black areas.

This is really dependent on where you go. I know it's sure not the case in my neighborhood. We have, on my block, a Korean family, two houses with black families, and a new hispanic couple from Columbia. I certainly wouldn't call my community divided, and I live in what has traditionally been considered a "white flight" city. Now within larger cities, you might find neighborhoods that are more ethnically homogenous, but that is generally a choice of those that live there, as opposed to being "forced" to live there.

wah1188 wrote:

We also talked about how if your poor its really bad, if your rich its really good and how theres a huge range between social economic classes.

This is an interesting point. First off, I want to say that there are no social classes in the US. Not like you Europeans know them, at any rate. The whole dukes and lords thing is something we still don't understand over here. It might have something to do with the total lack of fudalism in my country's history.

Now, we certainly have economic classes. That being said, I disagree that the poor have it badly here. It's just that only the really hard luck stories make the news here. The fact of the matter is that most families outside of big cities make enough money to own their own home, have dinner out once a week, and take a nice little vacation to orlando every summer while the kids are out of school. We have enough jobs that everyone that wants one can find one. It may not be glamorous, but it will pay the bills.

This is an AWESOME place to be rich though. Every consumer good you could ever want is close to hand.

wah1188 wrote:

Yes its the same in all countries don't get me wrong. I was just thinking is it really bad to be poor in America compared to the U.K we get benefits and stuff here so we can still at least eat, clothe ourselves and live on a day to day basis.
From what I know you guys give out state benefits for a certain amount of time then your off right? I'd also think your healthcare is quite good but thats due to having to pay for it but how to poor families do without it if they simply can't afford the medicine or operation.

You can indeed recieve benefits to help you out between jobs. No one here ever goes hungry, if they're willing to do what it takes. Now, much of the assistance available doesn't come from the government. Private charities (Salvation Army, etc.) and churches make up a huge percentage of the assistance given. It's there, you just have to get over your pride and ask for it.

And poor people get the exact same care as rich people. They may not be a $5000 a day hospital suite with a private nurse's aid/attendant, but you will get the newest and best care, regardless of your ability to pay. There isn't someone standing around saying "no" to any procedure that will save your live. Some of our best speciality hospitals (Shriner's, among others) do not require any payments at all. Their care is provided entirely free of charge, and they're the best in the world at what they do.

_{From the Shriner's website: Any child may be eligible for care at Shriners Hospitals if:
*the child is under the age of 18
*there is a reasonable possibility the child's condition can be helped by the specialized care provided by Shriners Hospitals for Children
There is never a charge to the patient or parents for any medical care or services provided at a Shriners Hospital.}

wah1188 wrote:

As you all know the U.K has a free health care system and private, some of the economists will tell you its needed because health care is a merit good and is under consumed by the market. Due to this we pay taxes which go into funding this service are your taxes a lot lower, because it sure does suck to look at your paycheck before and after tax here.

Well, on the whole, I'd say yes, our taxes are lower. And that's a good thing, CameronPoe be damned.

wah1188 wrote:

Would you feel a bit annoyed paying for fat bills gastric bypass, even though he spends all his money on food but cannot "afford" his operation.
I just feel a little cheated that the working are punished by the government with taxes and yet the jobless are leeching off us.

Yes, I'd be pissed off. At the same time, that exact attitude is how most Americans look at those who recieve welfare of any kind.

wah1188 wrote:

Some of you may read this and take offense I'm sorry but this is just my thoughts and views, I don't want personal attacks I want your views on what I know. If its correct or did it get mixed up over the sea. I guess I would like to know more about living in America from a Americans point of view.

No offense taken. You make some good points.

wah1188 wrote:

Also the college thing you guys have to pay loads to go right, we get loans and grants off the government to help us. Are the poor denied education even though they have the ability I know there are scholarships but they can only give out so much.

The short answer is no. The long answer is, it depends. Education in the states is indeed financed by each individual state. Rather than making great generalizations, I'll use the state in which I live as an example.

Arkansas has four major public universities: The University of Arkansas (which has several campuses), Arkansas State University, The University of Central Arkansas, and Arkansas Technical University. As these are public institutions, the state provides them with funding to subsidize the education of students that are from Arkansas.

This is tuition for a full load semester(12 hours) in-state and out-of-state:
U of A                $1908            $5290
ASU                   $1848            $4800           
UCA                   $1878            $3756
Tech                  $1836            $3672

Students who can't afford this can pay for their school out of a combination of scholarships, grants, and loans. In short, if you can hack the work, you can pay for it.

wah1188 wrote:

The thing I want to know is in America if you got the balls and the heart is there really the opportunity to become successful?
Oh and gross you guys get huge spiders over there .
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=79511

Absolutely. The stories are everywhere. One of my best friends is a great one. He grew up dirt assed poor, dysfunctional family, put himself through college on scholarships and loans (and waited tables for beer money), and now makes about $120K a year, operating a music venue he built from the ground up. He worked hard, and now, as a 28 year old man, he's doing awesome. Not to mention, $120K a year is a SHITTON of money in Arkansas. That's the equivalent of $211K in Orange County, or $281K in Manhattan.

Oh yeah, spiders don't really bother me. But we don't have any big ones here where I live. I'm more than willing to give the huge spider title to Australia. They have some monster ones over there.

Turquoise wrote:

Our out-of-state tuition (the amount you pay as a student not from NC) is cheaper than many states' in-state tuition (the amount you pay for college if you live in the state that the school is in).

You've totally lost your mind. North Carolina's out of state tutition rate is INSANE. $9000 a semester at UNC! For just TUITION. Hell, that's almost as much as my private college's tutiton was, and UNC's a state school!

Kmarion wrote:

blisteringsilence wrote:

You've got a good start here. Food is indeed cheap. And good. Nothing against you Brits, but I was hard pressed to find a good cut of beef the whole time I was there. You can get an excellent, prime cut KC Strip at the grocery store for about 10 bucks a pound (5 if they're on sale that week). Foodstuff wise, we're MUCH cheaper here than in Europe. It helps that a lot of it comes from our country.

Americans are very high in PPP (purchasing power) as a whole. Simply put, how far our income can go when purchasing goods or services.
http://i10.tinypic.com/540oldj.jpg
Our middle ground is slipping though... not good.

Also Real estate is very much a local thing. A bunch of houses with Million dollar price tags doesn't mean much. I could put a double wide trailer on the market for 800k. That doesn't mean it will sell. The nation as a whole is in a slump.. no doubt . http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oreg … amp;coll=7

I don't understand what exactly is going on with Ireland's PPP In that picture - it has the same PPP index as the US and yet in monetary terms it is lower than the US despite the fact that the euro is far stronger than the dollar. Anybody help?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-05 08:21:49)

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you're rich, you've got more oppertunities than even the law provides. If you're poor, you're lucky to have your constitutional rights and your life.

agent146 wrote:

yes american is the land of opportunity ....its also the land of despair for the lowly poor. its pure capitalism...you have to make more money.

Actually we have 'professional beggers' who make $70,000/year.  In San Diego there was a T.V. news reporter who followed some well known 'beggers' who held various signs up begging for money at popular intersections (they usually walk in-between cars on a red light), and followed them.

One of them drove a Mercedes back to his La Jolla home of $700,000.  When cornered the guy said he wanted to 'supplement his income' and 'enjoyed meeting people'.  He apparently was a day trader that lost alot of money in the bubble.


Now I'm not saying that all beggers are professional, but I'm just saying that there is a very small fraction of beggers who are not necessarily what they appear to be.

Last edited by Harmor (2007-07-05 08:38:07)

As far as college is concerned, you can get student loans and pay them off after you graduate and get a job, if you are poor, the interest doesn't start to tally till after graduation.  I am middle class and I still have $7,000 in loans left after 4 years of post graduation employment.  The loan pay offs are fixed at about $50 a month per loan, I have 4 loans = $200 a month.  The terms vary based on home much you borrow.

On another note, the community college here in Dayton is only like $35 a credit to county residents so there realy is no excuse not to go.

jonsimon wrote:

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you're rich, you've got more oppertunities than even the law provides. If you're poor, you're lucky to have your constitutional rights and your life.

How many real poor people do you know? I only ask because I work with the "poor" on a daily basis. And the people I work with would be a hell of a lot wealthier if they'd stop paying for some consumer goods in favor of building some wealth.

The fact of the matter is that anyone, no matter their background, has the opportunity to make a lot of money in this country. Some embrace this, others choose not to. It, like many things here, is a matter of personal choice.

suomalainen_äijä wrote:

no it isn't, Japan or Australia are the ones

You've lost your mind. Japan? I'd agree with Australia, but Japan? There are NO entrepeneurs in Japan. Not to mention the rigid social striations in that country. While it is indeed a nice place to live, I would never call it a land of opportunity.