golgoj4
Member
+51|7218|North Hollywood

FEOS wrote:

It's interesting that all of you who don't actually live in America have all these opinions on what it's really like here.

We could go on for ages with a point/counterpoint about what life is really like here, but since those of you outside the US only have short visits and/or media reports to go off of, it will be nearly impossible to convince you of the truth. The bulk of US and international media is so slanted that anyone who disagrees is a brainwashed right-wing zombie. There's no point in trying to share the reality with those of you who are convinced that you know so much about life here because you watched the "news".

The bottomline is you are only limited by yourself in this country. If you start out from nothing, you have multiple opportunities to make something of yourself and contribute effectively to society. You also have the chance to mooch off the public teat for your entire life. You won't get anywhere, but you will certainly soak those of us who do for every tax dollar you can.

All this "white corporate oppression" is an excuse from those who aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to succeed...and those who don't know anything about life in the US (firsthand, at least).

As for Libby: OK...he lied to federal prosecutors. There are many who have who endured a lighter sentence or no sentence at all (a former President comes to mind...no pun intended). At least Libby is serving some kind of punishment for perjury. The fact that the investigation that started this should have been dropped long before it ever got to Libby is somewhat irrelevant. Libby lied when questioned. Now he's a federal convict (more than Clinton got).

Plame is in just as much danger now as she was before she was "outed"--exactly none. This kind of partisan bickering in my country drives me
absolutely nuts. We can't just go about the business of running the country--it's not enough that one side wins...the other must lose. That simply isn't good for the country.
Where is everyone complaining about the so-called 'white corporate oppression' around here exactly? The 60's called. They want their chant back.

You equate a blowjob to the outing of a covert agent ? Fine, thats your call. But how can YOU know this investigation should have been dropped? Who are you to say, 'oh this isnt that important'? Let it flush out if its bullshit.

It doesn't matter WTF she (Valerie Plame) did, if the CIA decided to call DOJ and initiate an investigation, who the hell are you or I to decide how important it is? Im not saying what Clinton did was ok. It makes me sick! Including letting that fucker Mark Rich off the hook AND his brother.  But do that mean scooter gets to go free? its tit for tat and no longer about the rule of law?

Please don't respond for us Americans. You talk about being non-partisan yet thats all you are about in your post. Clinton this, Clinton that. Get over it. Unless that BJ was something really special to you. As for the rest of the bullshit you started off with, there are plenty of people that come from nothing and contribute to society. And there are leeches. Great job stating the obvious, did you have some sort of point buried in there?
There are plenty of people here who don't take the news as a bible so I dont know you missed that. 

As for the business of the country, business is good. Ask congress. They just greenlit more illegal immigration and the associated problems because their respective owners (and this is my own ass-umption) paid them off. The illegal lobby on the left, and big business on the right. They work hand in hand to keep cheap labor on the table and the 'progressives' in good political standing. This is really sad to watch...so sad.

A side note, this thread is missing its normal right leaning posters. USMarine? Kmarion? Turquoise? You guys have any thoughts on the matter?
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I wished he did a full pardon...the guy still has to pay all that money and is on probation for 2 years.
Why?
Because Harmor has a grudge against the CIA and thinks that Republicans should be immune from prosecution. Isn't it obvious?
Thanks for putting words in my mouth -too bad they are not mine.  As for what I really believe is that this was a witch hunt by the procecutor in this case based on very 'weak' evidence from 'spotty' witnesses.

I also think the two border patrol agents who shot a drug smuggler in the ass should be set free as well.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6854|'Murka

golgoj4 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It's interesting that all of you who don't actually live in America have all these opinions on what it's really like here.

We could go on for ages with a point/counterpoint about what life is really like here, but since those of you outside the US only have short visits and/or media reports to go off of, it will be nearly impossible to convince you of the truth. The bulk of US and international media is so slanted that anyone who disagrees is a brainwashed right-wing zombie. There's no point in trying to share the reality with those of you who are convinced that you know so much about life here because you watched the "news".

The bottomline is you are only limited by yourself in this country. If you start out from nothing, you have multiple opportunities to make something of yourself and contribute effectively to society. You also have the chance to mooch off the public teat for your entire life. You won't get anywhere, but you will certainly soak those of us who do for every tax dollar you can.

All this "white corporate oppression" is an excuse from those who aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to succeed...and those who don't know anything about life in the US (firsthand, at least).

As for Libby: OK...he lied to federal prosecutors. There are many who have who endured a lighter sentence or no sentence at all (a former President comes to mind...no pun intended). At least Libby is serving some kind of punishment for perjury. The fact that the investigation that started this should have been dropped long before it ever got to Libby is somewhat irrelevant. Libby lied when questioned. Now he's a federal convict (more than Clinton got).

Plame is in just as much danger now as she was before she was "outed"--exactly none. This kind of partisan bickering in my country drives me
absolutely nuts. We can't just go about the business of running the country--it's not enough that one side wins...the other must lose. That simply isn't good for the country.
Where is everyone complaining about the so-called 'white corporate oppression' around here exactly? The 60's called. They want their chant back.

You equate a blowjob to the outing of a covert agent ? Fine, thats your call. But how can YOU know this investigation should have been dropped? Who are you to say, 'oh this isnt that important'? Let it flush out if its bullshit.

It doesn't matter WTF she (Valerie Plame) did, if the CIA decided to call DOJ and initiate an investigation, who the hell are you or I to decide how important it is? Im not saying what Clinton did was ok. It makes me sick! Including letting that fucker Mark Rich off the hook AND his brother.  But do that mean scooter gets to go free? its tit for tat and no longer about the rule of law?

Please don't respond for us Americans. You talk about being non-partisan yet thats all you are about in your post. Clinton this, Clinton that. Get over it. Unless that BJ was something really special to you. As for the rest of the bullshit you started off with, there are plenty of people that come from nothing and contribute to society. And there are leeches. Great job stating the obvious, did you have some sort of point buried in there?
There are plenty of people here who don't take the news as a bible so I dont know you missed that. 

As for the business of the country, business is good. Ask congress. They just greenlit more illegal immigration and the associated problems because their respective owners (and this is my own ass-umption) paid them off. The illegal lobby on the left, and big business on the right. They work hand in hand to keep cheap labor on the table and the 'progressives' in good political standing. This is really sad to watch...so sad.

A side note, this thread is missing its normal right leaning posters. USMarine? Kmarion? Turquoise? You guys have any thoughts on the matter?
Point by point:
- I was addressing multiple threads and the basic argument in SOME of the posts of this thread. Sorry if you couldn't keep up.

- I was equating lying to a federal prosecutor (Libby) to lying to a federal prosecutor (Clinton). While interesting and entertaining if done correctly, a blowjob had nothing to do with my argument. But good on you for working the word "blowjob" into this thread.

- Read the news. Libby wasn't about the outing of a covert CIA agent. Libby lied to federal investigators in the course of an investigation. What I was equating was that Libby and Clinton committed the same crime: perjury. All I did was compare the ramifications for each. Libby got a federal conviction and all the baggage associated with it...Clinton did it. The person who actually "outed" Plame got nothing. Probably because the investigator realized there was nothing to convict him for since Plame's "covert" status had expired and she was not covered under the statute.

- Plus, working in that sector of the government, I know what Plame's real job was...and she, her husband, and those pushing for the investigation all overplayed her role at CIA. Otherwise, it wouldn't have made interesting drama for the media.

- I'm pretty sure I didn't say "I speak for all Americans" anywhere in my post. I don't. I speak for me. You really need to work on your anger issues...and your fixation on fellatio.

- I never said I'm "non-partisan." Yes, I am conservative, but that doesn't mean I rubber-stamp everything that comes out of the Bush Administration. There are serious problems that are a result of the policies implemented by that group (the ENTIRE administration, not just Bush himself). I recommend reading the book "Cobra II"--you'll get a good understanding of the dysfunction of the administration. It's focused on the run up to and execution of OIF, but many of the points made can be seen throughout the Bush Administration's policy history.

- By the way, I'm in violent agreement with your "business is good" point.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Pierre wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I wished he did a full pardon...the guy still has to pay all that money and is on probation for 2 years.
http://www.scooterlibby.com/
His friends donated millions for his defence, he will not pay a dime from his own pocket.
He also will have lots of joboffers from his friends, maybe write a book 'about the truth', earning him millions.
Truly American justice.
Yep...  the plutocracy of our so-called Justice System is thoroughly appalling.

But, as another poster said, this isn't a Democrat vs. Republican thing.  It's a rich vs. poor thing.  If you're rich, you usually can buy your way out of a situation like Libby's, and in this case, his rich friends did it for him as well.

Oh, the joys of Hammurabi's Laws.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7186|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|7208|Dallas

DSRTurtle wrote:

Cougar wrote:

George Bush Commute Letter wrote:

Mr. Libby was sentenced to thirty months of prison, two years of probation, and a $250,000 fine. In making the sentencing decision, the district court rejected the advice of the probation office, which recommended a lesser sentence and the consideration of factors that could have led to a sentence of home confinement or probation.

I respect the jury's verdict. But I have concluded that the prison sentence given to Mr. Libby is excessive. Therefore, I am commuting the portion of Mr. Libby's sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison.

My decision to commute his prison sentence leaves in place a harsh punishment for Mr. Libby. The reputation he gained through his years of public service and professional work in the legal community is forever damaged. His wife and young children have also suffered immensely. He will remain on probation. The significant fines imposed by the judge will remain in effect. The consequences of his felony conviction on his former life as a lawyer, public servant, and private citizen will be long-lasting
What a bunch of shit.  Fuck this government.  Fuck Bush.  Fuck Scooter Libby.  Fuck politcians in general.

Unbelievable.  This is the kind of shit that is ruining our country and making people like myself want to leave.
Do us a favor and leave then.
I plan on it.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6854|'Murka

IG-Calibre wrote:

Wow. Olberman railed against Bush. Shocking. That almost never happens.

Hope none of the sarcasm dripped on anyone...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7211
Bush Filed a Motion Last Year to Uphold the 33-Month Sentence of Victor Rita, a 24-Year Marine Corps Vet Convicted on Same Crimes as Libby

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2007/07/04 … -sentence/
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6627|Ireland

G3|Genius wrote:

DAMN STRAIGHT:


blisteringsilence wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

I agree, it's rediculous. TBH, I had an idea something of this kind would happen, but I hadn't thought they'd let him get off completely. It's crazy. I don't really understand how Bush can get away with pardoning someone whose been proven guilty. I mean sure, he doesn't have to get elected again, but wouldn't it just compromise his ability to get anything done?
A pardon, by its very definition, is for someone who has been proven guilty. And Clinton pardoned more criminals than any president in the past. Where was the outcry then?

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

Name    Home Town    Offenses
ALLEN, Verla Jean    Everton, Arkansas    False statements to agency of United States
ALTIERE, Nicholas M.    Las Vegas, Nevada    Importation of cocaine
ALTSCHUL, Bernice Ruth    Sherman Village, California    Conspiracy to commit money laundering
ANDERSON, Joe, Jr.    Grove Hill, Alabama    Income tax evasion
ANDERSON, William Sterling    Spartanburg, South Carolina    Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured financial institution, false statements to a federally insured financial institution, wire fraud
AZIZKHANI, Mansour T.    Huntsville, Alabama    Conspiracy and making false statements in bank loan applications
BABIN, Cleveland Victor, Jr.    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma    Conspiracy to commit offense against the United States by utilizing the U.S. mail in furtherance of a scheme to defraud
BAGLEY, Chris Harmon    Harrah, Oklahoma    Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine
BANE, Scott Lynn    Mahomet, Illinois    Unlawful distribution of marijuana
BARBER, Thomas Cleveland    Hampton, Florida    Issuing worthless checks
BARGON, Peggy Ann    Monticello, Illinois    Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act
BHATKA, Tansukhlal         Income tax evasion
BLAMPIED, David Roscoe    Ketchum, Idaho    Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr.    Washington, D.C.    Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery
BOREL, Arthur David    Little Rock, Arkansas    Odometer rollback
BOREL, Douglas Charles    Conway, Arkansas    Odometer rollback
BRABHAM, George Thomas    Austin, Texas    Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank
BRASWELL, Almon Glenn     Doravilla, Georgia    Conspiracy to defraud government with respect to claims; perjury
BROWDER, Leonard    Aiken, South Carolina    Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud
BROWN, David Steven    New York, New York    Securities fraud and mail fraud
BURLESON, Delores Caroylene, aka Delores Cox Burleson    Hanna, Oklahoma    Possession of marijuana
BUSTAMANTE, John H.    Cleveland, Ohio    Wire fraud
CAMPBELL, Mary Louise    Ruleville, Mississippi    Aiding and abetting the unauthorized use and transfer of food stamps
CANDELARIA, Eloida         False information in registering to vote
CAPILI, Dennis Sobrevinas    Glendale, California    Filing false statements in alien registration
CHAMBERS, Donna Denise    Memphis, Tennessee    Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute cocaine, possession with intent to distribute cocaine, use of a telephone to facilitate cocaine conspiracy
CHAPMAN, Douglas Eugene    Scott, Arkansas    Bank fraud
CHAPMAN, Ronald Keith    Scott, Arkansas    Bank fraud
CHAVEZ, Francisco Larios    Santa Ana, California    Aiding and abetting illegal entry of aliens
CISNEROS, Henry G.         
CLINTON, Roger         
COHN, Stuart Harris    New Haven, Connecticut    1. Illegal sale of gold options

2. Illegal sale of silver options
COOPER, David Marc    Wapakoneta, Ohio    Conspiracy to defraud the government
COX, Ernest Harley, Jr.    Pine Bluff, Arkansas    Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured savings and loan, misapplication of bank funds, false statements
CROSS, John F., Jr.    Little Rock, Arkansas    Embezzlement by a bank employee
CUNNINGHAM, Rickey Lee    Amarillo, Texas    Possession with intent to distribute marijuana
DE LABIO, Richard Anthony    Baltimore, Maryland    Mail fraud, aiding and abetting
DEUTCH, John         Described in January 19, 2001 information
DOUGLAS, Richard         False statements
DOWNE, Edward Reynolds         Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and tax evasion; securities fraud
DUDLEY, Marvin Dean    Omaha, Nebraska    False statements
DUNCAN, Larry Lee    Branson, Missouri    Altering an automobile odometer
FAIN, Robert Clinton         Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return
FERNANDEZ, Marcos Arcenio    Miami, Florida    Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana
FERROUILLET, Alvarez         Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering, false statements
FUGAZY, William Denis    Harrison, New York    Perjury in a bankruptcy proceeding
GEORGE, Lloyd Reid         Mail fraud
GOLDSTEIN, Louis    Las Vegas, Nevada    Possession of goods stolen from interstate shipment
GORDON, Rubye Lee    Tampa, Florida    Forgery of U.S. Treasury checks
GREEN, Pincus    Switzerland    
HAMNER, Robert Ivey    Searcy, Arkansas    Conspiracy to distribute marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute
HANDLEY, Samuel Price    Hodgenville, Kentucky    Conspiracy to steal government property
HANDLEY, Woodie Randolph    Hodgenville, Kentucky    Conspiracy to steal government property
HARMON, Jay Houston    Jonesboro, Arkansas    1. Conspiracy to import marijuana, conspiracy to possess marijuana with intent to distribute, importation of marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute
2. Conspiracy to import cocaine
HEMMINGSON, John         Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering
HERDLINGER, David S.    St. Simons Island, Georgia    Mail fraud
HUCKLEBERRY, Debi Rae    Ogden, Utah    Distribution of methamphetamine
JAMES, Donald Ray    Fairfield Bay, Arkansas    Mail fraud, wire fraud, and false statement to a bank to influence credit approval
JOBE, Stanley Pruet    El Paso, Texas    Conspiracy to commit bank fraud, and bank fraud
JOHNSON, Ruben H.    Austin, Texas     Theft and misapplication of bank funds by a bank officer or director
JONES, Linda          Conspiracy to commit bank fraud and other offenses against the United States
LAKE, James Howard         Illegal corporate campaign contributions, wire fraud
LEWIS, June Louise    Lowellville, Ohio    Embezzlement by a bank employee
LEWIS, Salim Bonnor    Short Hills, New Jersey    Securities fraud, record keeping violations, margin violations
LODWICK, John Leighton    Excelsior Springs, Missouri    Income tax evasion
LOPEZ, Hildebrando    San Isidro, Texas    Distribution of cocaine
LUACES, Jose Julio    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida    Possession of an unregistered firearm
MANESS, James Timothy         Conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance
MANNING, James Lowell    Little Rock, Arkansas    Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return
MARTIN, John Robert    Gulf Breeze, Florida    Income tax evasion
MARTINEZ, Frank Ayala    Elgin, Texas    Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service
MARTINEZ, Silvia Leticia Beltran    Elgin, Texas    Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service
McCORMICK, John Francis    Dedham, Massachusetts    Racketeering conspiracy, racketeering, and violation of the Hobbs act
McDOUGAL, Susan H.         
MECHANIC, Howard Lawrence         1. Violating the Civil Disobedience Act of 1968
2. Failure to appear
3. Making false statement in acquiring a passport
MITCHELL, Brook K., Sr.         Conspiracy to illegally obtain USDA subsidy payments, false statements to USDA, and false entries on USDA forms
MORGAN, Charles Wilfred, III    Little Rock, Arkansas    Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
MORISON, Samuel Loring    Crofton, Maryland    Willful transmission of defense information, unauthorized possession and retention of defense information, theft of government property
NAZZARO, Richard Anthony    Winchester, Massachusetts    Perjury and conspiracy to commit mail fraud
NOSENKO, Charlene Ann     Phoenix, Arizona    Conspiracy to defraud the United States, and influencing or injuring an officer or juror generally
OBERMEIER, Vernon Raymond    Belleville, Illinois    Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, distribution of cocaine, and using a communications facility to facilitate distribution of cocaine
OGALDE, Miguelina    Glendale, California    Conspiracy to import cocaine
OWEN, David C.    Olathe, Kansas    Filing a false tax return
PALMER, Robert W.    Little Rock, Arkansas    Conspiracy to make false statements
PERHOSKY, Kelli Anne    Bridgeville, Pennsylvania    Conspiracy to commit mail fraud
PEZZOPANE, Richard H.    Palo Heights, Illinois    Conspiracy to commit racketeering, and mail fraud
PHILLIPS, Orville Rex    Waco, Texas    Unlawful structure of a financial transaction
POLING, Vinson Stewart, Jr.    Baldwin, Maryland    Making a false bank entry, and aiding and abetting
PROUSE, Norman Lyle    Conyers, Georgia    Operating or directing the operation of a common carrier while under the influence of alcohol
PRUITT, Willie H. H., Jr.    Port Richey, Florida    Absent without official leave
PURSLEY, Danny Martin, Sr.    Goodlettsville, Tennessee    Aiding and abetting the conduct of an illegal gambling business, and obstruction of state laws to facilitate illegal gambling
RAVENEL, Charles D.    Charleston, South Carolina    Conspiracy to defraud the United States
RAY, William Clyde    Altus, Oklahoma    Fraud using a telephone
REGALADO, Alfredo Luna    Pharr, Texas    Failure to report the transportation of currency in excess of $10,000 into the United States
RICAFORT, Ildefonso Reynes    Houston, Texas    Submission of false claims to Veterans Administration
RICH, Marc    Switzerland    
RIDDLE, Howard Winfield    Mt. Crested Butte, Colorado    Violation of the Lacey Act (receipt of illegally imported animal skins)
RILEY, Richard Wilson, Jr.         Possession of cocaine with intent to distribute
ROBBINS, Samuel Lee    Cedar Park, Texas    Misprision of a felony
RODRIGUEZ, Joel Gonzales    Houston, Texas    Theft of mail by a postal employee
ROGERS, Michael James    McAllen, Texas    Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana
ROSS, Anna Louise    Lubbock, Texas    Distribution of cocaine
RUST, Gerald Glen    Avery, Texas    False declarations before grand jury
RUST, Jerri Ann    Avery, Texas    False declarations before grand jury
RUTHERFORD, Bettye June    Albuquerque, New Mexico    Possession of marijuana with intent to distribute
SANDS, Gregory Lee    Sioux Falls, South Dakota    Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
SCHWIMMER, Adolph         Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges
SERETTI, Albert A., Jr.    McKees Rocks, Pennyslvania    Conspiracy and wire fraud
SHAW, Patricia Campbell Hearst    Wilton, Connecticut    Armed bank robbery and using a firearm during a felony
SMITH, Dennis Joseph    Redby, Minnesota    1. Unauthorized absence
2. Failure to obey off-limits instructions
3. Unauthorized absence
SMITH, Gerald Owen    Florence, Mississippi    Armed bank robbery
SMITH, Stephen A.         
SPEAKE, Jimmie Lee    Breckenridge, Texas    Conspiracy to possess and utter counterfeit $20 Federal Reserve notes
STEWART, Charles Bernard    Sparta, Georgia    Illegally destroying U.S. Mail
STEWART-ROLLINS, Marlena Francisca    Euclid, Ohio    Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
SYMINGTON, John Fife, III         
TANNEHILL, Richard Lee    Reno, Nevada    Conspiracy and restraint of trade
TENAGLIA, Nicholas C.    Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania    Receipt of illegal payments under the Medicare program
THOMAS, Gary Allen    Lancaster, Texas    Theft of mail by postal employee
TODD, Larry Weldon    Gardendale, Texas    Conspiracy to commit an offense against the U.S. in violation of the Lacey Act and the Airborne Hunting Act
TREVINO, Olga C.     Converse, Texas    Misapplication by a bank employee
VAMVOUKLIS, Ignatious    Exeter, New Hampshire    Possession of cocaine
VAN DE WEERD, Patricia A.    Tomahawk, Wisconsin    Theft by a U.S. Postal employee
WADE, Christopher V.         
WARMATH, Bill Wayne    Walls, Mississippi    Obstruction of correspondence
WATSON, Jack Kenneth    Oakridge, Oregon    Making false statements of material facts to the U.S. Forest Service
WEBB, Donna Lynn    Panama City, Florida    False entry in savings and loan record by employee
WELLS, Donald William    Phenix City, Alabama    Possession of an unregistered firearm
WENDT, Robert H.    Kirkwood, Missouri    Conspiracy to effectuate the escape of a federal prisoner
WILLIAMS, Jack L.         Making false statements to federal agents
WILLIAMS, Kevin Arthur    Omaha, Nebraska    Conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute crack cocaine
WILLIAMS, Robert Michael    Davison, Michigan    Conspiracy to transport in foreign commerce securities obtained by fraud
WILSON, Jimmie Lee    Helena, Arkansas    Converting property mortgaged or pledged to a farm credit agency, and converting public money to personal use
WINGATE, Thelma Louise    Sale City, Georgia    Mail fraud
WOOD, Mitchell Couey    Sherwood, Arkansas    Conspiracy to possess and to distribute cocaine
WOOD, Warren Stannard    Las Vegas, Nevada    Conspiracy to defraud the United States by filing a false document with the Securities and Exchange Commission
WORTHEY, Dewey    Conway, Arkansas    Medicaid fraud
YALE, Rick Allen    Belleville, Illinois    Bank fraud
YASAK, Joseph A.     Chicago, Illinois    Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury
YINGLING, William Stanley         Interstate transportation of stolen vehicle
YOUNG, Phillip David    Little Rock, Arkansas    Interstate transportation and sale of fish and wildlife
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina
Personally, I think pardons shouldn't be allowed by anyone, whether it's presidents, governors, or anyone else.

Pardons are a direct contradiction of our system.
GATOR591957
Member
+84|7070
My question is this.  Why wouldn't the 1.2 million defense lawyers in the US be able to use GW's words as precedent in arguing their cases?

Aside from that, every excuse GW used for commuting Libby's sentence is not allowed to be used by DOJ standards. I.E. his family has suffered enough, his dedicated service, etc, etc, etc....
golgoj4
Member
+51|7218|North Hollywood

FEOS wrote:

golgoj4 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It's interesting that all of you who don't actually live in America have all these opinions on what it's really like here.

We could go on for ages with a point/counterpoint about what life is really like here, but since those of you outside the US only have short visits and/or media reports to go off of, it will be nearly impossible to convince you of the truth. The bulk of US and international media is so slanted that anyone who disagrees is a brainwashed right-wing zombie. There's no point in trying to share the reality with those of you who are convinced that you know so much about life here because you watched the "news".

The bottomline is you are only limited by yourself in this country. If you start out from nothing, you have multiple opportunities to make something of yourself and contribute effectively to society. You also have the chance to mooch off the public teat for your entire life. You won't get anywhere, but you will certainly soak those of us who do for every tax dollar you can.

All this "white corporate oppression" is an excuse from those who aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to succeed...and those who don't know anything about life in the US (firsthand, at least).

As for Libby: OK...he lied to federal prosecutors. There are many who have who endured a lighter sentence or no sentence at all (a former President comes to mind...no pun intended). At least Libby is serving some kind of punishment for perjury. The fact that the investigation that started this should have been dropped long before it ever got to Libby is somewhat irrelevant. Libby lied when questioned. Now he's a federal convict (more than Clinton got).

Plame is in just as much danger now as she was before she was "outed"--exactly none. This kind of partisan bickering in my country drives me
absolutely nuts. We can't just go about the business of running the country--it's not enough that one side wins...the other must lose. That simply isn't good for the country.
Where is everyone complaining about the so-called 'white corporate oppression' around here exactly? The 60's called. They want their chant back.

You equate a blowjob to the outing of a covert agent ? Fine, thats your call. But how can YOU know this investigation should have been dropped? Who are you to say, 'oh this isnt that important'? Let it flush out if its bullshit.

It doesn't matter WTF she (Valerie Plame) did, if the CIA decided to call DOJ and initiate an investigation, who the hell are you or I to decide how important it is? Im not saying what Clinton did was ok. It makes me sick! Including letting that fucker Mark Rich off the hook AND his brother.  But do that mean scooter gets to go free? its tit for tat and no longer about the rule of law?

Please don't respond for us Americans. You talk about being non-partisan yet thats all you are about in your post. Clinton this, Clinton that. Get over it. Unless that BJ was something really special to you. As for the rest of the bullshit you started off with, there are plenty of people that come from nothing and contribute to society. And there are leeches. Great job stating the obvious, did you have some sort of point buried in there?
There are plenty of people here who don't take the news as a bible so I dont know you missed that. 

As for the business of the country, business is good. Ask congress. They just greenlit more illegal immigration and the associated problems because their respective owners (and this is my own ass-umption) paid them off. The illegal lobby on the left, and big business on the right. They work hand in hand to keep cheap labor on the table and the 'progressives' in good political standing. This is really sad to watch...so sad.

A side note, this thread is missing its normal right leaning posters. USMarine? Kmarion? Turquoise? You guys have any thoughts on the matter?
Point by point:
- I was addressing multiple threads and the basic argument in SOME of the posts of this thread. Sorry if you couldn't keep up.

- I was equating lying to a federal prosecutor (Libby) to lying to a federal prosecutor (Clinton). While interesting and entertaining if done correctly, a blowjob had nothing to do with my argument. But good on you for working the word "blowjob" into this thread.

- Read the news. Libby wasn't about the outing of a covert CIA agent. Libby lied to federal investigators in the course of an investigation. What I was equating was that Libby and Clinton committed the same crime: perjury. All I did was compare the ramifications for each. Libby got a federal conviction and all the baggage associated with it...Clinton did it. The person who actually "outed" Plame got nothing. Probably because the investigator realized there was nothing to convict him for since Plame's "covert" status had expired and she was not covered under the statute.

- Plus, working in that sector of the government, I know what Plame's real job was...and she, her husband, and those pushing for the investigation all overplayed her role at CIA. Otherwise, it wouldn't have made interesting drama for the media.

- I'm pretty sure I didn't say "I speak for all Americans" anywhere in my post. I don't. I speak for me. You really need to work on your anger issues...and your fixation on fellatio.

- I never said I'm "non-partisan." Yes, I am conservative, but that doesn't mean I rubber-stamp everything that comes out of the Bush Administration. There are serious problems that are a result of the policies implemented by that group (the ENTIRE administration, not just Bush himself). I recommend reading the book "Cobra II"--you'll get a good understanding of the dysfunction of the administration. It's focused on the run up to and execution of OIF, but many of the points made can be seen throughout the Bush Administration's policy history.

- By the way, I'm in violent agreement with your "business is good" point.
Sorry if your first sentence didnt allude to the fact you were talking about other threads?

You are correct. A BJ  had nothing to do with your statement. And you are totally correct. They both DID lie. From my understanding, Clinton lied in a civil case, not a federal case. I guess I make a distinction where there should be none?

As for the ramifications, Clinton had to deal with no fine but still lost his law license. So Scooted had to pay $250,400 for his lie and Clinton's was free. And I know Libby wasnt convicted for outing Plame. He was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors. Armitage somehow did it and got away with it.

Her covert status. So who is the final say? If the CIA charges were overblown, wouldn't that come out in an investigation? what reason is there to lie if nothing was done wrong? I can respect that you may work in that sector of gov't, so maybe you can explain what the motivation to obfuscate the truth is.

Your right, you didn't say you spoke for all Americans. As for bjs, i like receiving them. So i'll keep the fixation As far as anger, I shouldn't be angry @ the antics of this administration? When I say Bush, I don't mean him alone obviously. I mean him, the 4th branch of Gov't and his administration.  Cobra II is a good book im sure, but time to sit and read is in short supply these days.

-WTF to do about immigration....
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6907|meh-land

GATOR591957 wrote:

My question is this.  Why wouldn't the 1.2 million defense lawyers in the US be able to use GW's words as precedent in arguing their cases?

Aside from that, every excuse GW used for commuting Libby's sentence is not allowed to be used by DOJ standards. I.E. his family has suffered enough, his dedicated service, etc, etc, etc....
bush is an idiot, what do you expect

However, as i said before, libby was a scapegoat, and his crime so massively exagerated, that he didn't deserve jailtime.  How many times has someone in this thread said that the so called 'CIA agent' was an agent, not just a secretary working at a desk job.  Go ahead and count.  NO one's life was endangered by what he said, i can assure you of that.  As i said, he still deserves fines and such for other crimes he did commite, but others have done far worse and escaped the meatgrinder of the media, and he still has to pay fines

ah well, everyone will forget him in a year (most likely) and this will just be another thing for people to complain about in the future from time to time
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623
Look people...Its funny how so many people here jump on Bush for commuting and probably pardon people on his last day. This is not a Bush phenomena. EVERY president does this and the biggest one of all was Clinton. I don't see a lot of Bush haters hear calling Mr. Clinton any such names. Clinton abused his power in many ways...like many of our presidents do. But I would say that power among all governments is very much like this as well. I'm sure there are favors passed around in the British government, Russian government...it happens everywhere....but again, its us big bad Americans who do everything wrong. All other governments are pure and as clean as a baby's ass! Yeah...right!

Our government, in general, has a lot of flaws. One thing for sure is that the rich get richer. The presidency now-a-days is pretty much bought and paid for and you will never see the average Joe ever have a shot of being president. Our forefathers never meant for our system to be like this. These presidential pardons are a joke and should be stopped...but who can stop it? There are quite a few other things that should be stopped as well but if you don't have the money, you wont have the time.

Now for everyone jumping on the bash Bush bandwagon or the corrupt government...please take a step back and look at your own country, your own government and realize that the same type of BS is going on there as well. What government in this world doesn't run by favors, money or the word of a dictator. It is the way of the world we live in and I don't see it changing anywhere anytime soon.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,992|7075|949

Blehm98 wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

My question is this.  Why wouldn't the 1.2 million defense lawyers in the US be able to use GW's words as precedent in arguing their cases?

Aside from that, every excuse GW used for commuting Libby's sentence is not allowed to be used by DOJ standards. I.E. his family has suffered enough, his dedicated service, etc, etc, etc....
bush is an idiot, what do you expect

However, as i said before, libby was a scapegoat, and his crime so massively exagerated, that he didn't deserve jailtime.  How many times has someone in this thread said that the so called 'CIA agent' was an agent, not just a secretary working at a desk job.  Go ahead and count.  NO one's life was endangered by what he said, i can assure you of that.  As i said, he still deserves fines and such for other crimes he did commite, but others have done far worse and escaped the meatgrinder of the media, and he still has to pay fines

ah well, everyone will forget him in a year (most likely) and this will just be another thing for people to complain about in the future from time to time
A desk worker?  99% of the CIA are "desk workers".  That doesn't take away the fact that she was operating with NOC.  She was a covert agent.  She wasn't a secretary.  Because she is not out actively fomenting dissent in Iran means that she faced no danger?  Libby was a scapegoat, without a doubt.  He still deserves jail time.  "All he did was lie to the Grand Jury, its not a big deal".  Bullshit.

The fact that "others have done far worse and escaped the meat grinder of the media" is of no relevance.  Many have done far less and been dragged through the press.  He committed a crime.  He needs to be held accountable.  A $250,000 fine is not equal to accountability.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-07-06 10:45:30)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6854|'Murka

golgoj4 wrote:

Sorry if your first sentence didnt allude to the fact you were talking about other threads?

You are correct. A BJ  had nothing to do with your statement. And you are totally correct. They both DID lie. From my understanding, Clinton lied in a civil case, not a federal case. I guess I make a distinction where there should be none?

As for the ramifications, Clinton had to deal with no fine but still lost his law license. So Scooted had to pay $250,400 for his lie and Clinton's was free. And I know Libby wasnt convicted for outing Plame. He was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors. Armitage somehow did it and got away with it.

Her covert status. So who is the final say? If the CIA charges were overblown, wouldn't that come out in an investigation? what reason is there to lie if nothing was done wrong? I can respect that you may work in that sector of gov't, so maybe you can explain what the motivation to obfuscate the truth is.

Your right, you didn't say you spoke for all Americans. As for bjs, i like receiving them. So i'll keep the fixation As far as anger, I shouldn't be angry @ the antics of this administration? When I say Bush, I don't mean him alone obviously. I mean him, the 4th branch of Gov't and his administration.  Cobra II is a good book im sure, but time to sit and read is in short supply these days.

-WTF to do about immigration....
Clinton's was a federal investigation, not civil.

The reason they didn't prosecute Armitage is because they realized that Plame WAS NOT covert "enough" to meet the letter and intent of the statute. That's not saying that she wasn't covert at some point...only that she had not been covert in the field within 5 yrs (I think). Bottomline is that she didn't meet covert criteria under the law...hence no prosecution for Armitage, as he couldn't have "outed" her.

I don't have all the time in the world to read either...that's why I'm picky about what I read. As for anger at the administration...I don't limit myself just to the Executive branch. The legislative sucks ass too...and the judicial isn't much better. As for the "real" 4th branch of government (the media)...they can all smoke a turd in hell as far as I'm concerned.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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