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2007-07-09 15:29:41
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina
After seeing how many misconceptions there are about Al Quida and Iran in another thread, I figured I'd sum up the differences between Al Quida and most Shiite extremists.

Al Quida is a Sunni group.  Like a lot of other Sunni extremists, they hate Shia about as much as they hate the West.

Groups like the Mahdi Army are Shiite.  Muqtada al-Sadr leads this particular group and hates Sunnis (or at least their extremists) about as much as he hates the West.  Granted, he recently made a statement that Sunnis and Shiites should work together against the coalition to push us out.

So, it's no big surprise that Al Quida has recently made a statement about attacking Iran.  With Iran being a primarily Shiite nation, Al Quida obviously doesn't like them.

Note that another key difference between Al Quida and the Shiite insurgents is that the Shiites just want Western forces to leave Iraq.  They have no interest in flying over here to attack us on our own soil.  Al Quida is interested in attacking various nations and goes to the trouble of making attacks inside these countries.

So, we're dealing with 2 very different types of terror now.  One of them can easily be avoided by leaving certain areas the hell alone.  The other must be destroyed through persistent action.

In general, it's the Sunni extremists we have to worry about more than the Shiite ones, because Wahhabism is a Sunni-related ideology, not a Shia one.  Osama Bin Laden is a Wahhabist, and so are many of the other terrorists we've had to deal with on our own soil.

Shia extremism in Iraq is generally focused on pushing the coalition out of Iraq rather than enacting some global Jihad.

So...  given all this information, why not leave Iraq and fight the Sunni nutjobs in Afghanistan and Pakistan?  Isn't that more relevant to our own safety than Iraq?
2007-07-09 15:35:46
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623
Even today there were Iraqi officials stating that they don't want America to leave just yet. It depends on how you would like America to leave. Yes, it is a mess we have gotten ourselves into but we should at least follow through and support the people ASKING for our support. They don't want a vacuum to envelope Iraq if America just up and leaves. We need to finish what we can, support them and continue to build up the Iraq ranks to protect Iraq. That is what they are asking for...more time to finish the build up of their own army and security forces. No...Im not going to post a link about what I said...just look at the news of today...you will see it.
2007-07-09 15:38:23
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Even today there were Iraqi officials stating that they don't want America to leave just yet. It depends on how you would like America to leave. Yes, it is a mess we have gotten ourselves into but we should at least follow through and support the people ASKING for our support. They don't want a vacuum to envelope Iraq if America just up and leaves. We need to finish what we can, support them and continue to build up the Iraq ranks to protect Iraq. That is what they are asking for...more time to finish the build up of their own army and security forces. No...Im not going to post a link about what I said...just look at the news of today...you will see it.
No need to be defensive.  I'm just going to suggest one thing....  Why not have a referendum?  If the majority of Iraq wants us to stay, they will vote in favor of it.  If not, then why stay?

We should give the Iraqi people the chance to decide if we leave or stay.
2007-07-09 15:41:24
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6973|Global Command
Here is a old saying that originated in Persia;

" The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. "

The are united if in nothing else their hatred for all things West.
2007-07-09 15:45:53
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6734|Éire
One of the main problems with the media today is there is not enough emphasis on the divisions within the Muslim world. They are all bundled together and tarred with the same brush ...to the extent that some people even think Sikhs are in the same category as Islamic fundamentalists! It's too complex for most of the brainless 'entertainment-news' watchers to digest, it's much easier to have a simple, unified, easily recognisable enemy.
2007-07-09 15:46:40
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Even today there were Iraqi officials stating that they don't want America to leave just yet. It depends on how you would like America to leave. Yes, it is a mess we have gotten ourselves into but we should at least follow through and support the people ASKING for our support. They don't want a vacuum to envelope Iraq if America just up and leaves. We need to finish what we can, support them and continue to build up the Iraq ranks to protect Iraq. That is what they are asking for...more time to finish the build up of their own army and security forces. No...Im not going to post a link about what I said...just look at the news of today...you will see it.
No need to be defensive.  I'm just going to suggest one thing....  Why not have a referendum?  If the majority of Iraq wants us to stay, they will vote in favor of it.  If not, then why stay?

We should give the Iraqi people the chance to decide if we leave or stay.
I agree with that but I don't see that as something that the current government there would even consider. They want our help, money and training and I guarantee that they would work around anything like that suggestion. Good idea but personally I don't think it will happen any time soon. Even if there was a referendum...can you imagine the manipulation, scare tactics, threats and down right fraud that would accompany it....it would definitely open up a whole new can of worms.
2007-07-09 15:47:44
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,992|7075|949

ATG wrote:

Here is a old saying that originated in Persia;

" The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. "

The are united if in nothing else their hatred for all things West.
Yeah, they hate our freedom and democracy.  Simply despise it.  Not to mention our Pop Culture.  Absolutely despise it.  Oh wait...
2007-07-09 15:53:59
The_Mac
Member
+96|6669

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

ATG wrote:

Here is a old saying that originated in Persia;

" The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. "

The are united if in nothing else their hatred for all things West.
Yeah, they hate our freedom and democracy.  Simply despise it.  Not to mention our Pop Culture.  Absolutely despise it.  Oh wait...
That's what I'm saying after reading your nonsensical post.
2007-07-09 15:54:49
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

Here is a old saying that originated in Persia;

" The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. "

The are united if in nothing else their hatred for all things West.
Yes, but they won't remain that way if we leave Iraq.
2007-07-09 15:57:32
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Even today there were Iraqi officials stating that they don't want America to leave just yet. It depends on how you would like America to leave. Yes, it is a mess we have gotten ourselves into but we should at least follow through and support the people ASKING for our support. They don't want a vacuum to envelope Iraq if America just up and leaves. We need to finish what we can, support them and continue to build up the Iraq ranks to protect Iraq. That is what they are asking for...more time to finish the build up of their own army and security forces. No...Im not going to post a link about what I said...just look at the news of today...you will see it.
No need to be defensive.  I'm just going to suggest one thing....  Why not have a referendum?  If the majority of Iraq wants us to stay, they will vote in favor of it.  If not, then why stay?

We should give the Iraqi people the chance to decide if we leave or stay.
I agree with that but I don't see that as something that the current government there would even consider. They want our help, money and training and I guarantee that they would work around anything like that suggestion. Good idea but personally I don't think it will happen any time soon. Even if there was a referendum...can you imagine the manipulation, scare tactics, threats and down right fraud that would accompany it....it would definitely open up a whole new can of worms.
Well, let me ask you this.  Do you believe that's what happened with the election that put these people into power?
2007-07-09 16:01:30
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,992|7075|949

The_Mac wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

ATG wrote:

Here is a old saying that originated in Persia;

" The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. "

The are united if in nothing else their hatred for all things West.
Yeah, they hate our freedom and democracy.  Simply despise it.  Not to mention our Pop Culture.  Absolutely despise it.  Oh wait...
That's what I'm saying after reading your nonsensical post.
The fact that people say "they hate u' for all things west" is fucking retarded.  That's my point.  How can you say they hate us when they buy copious amounts of US Pop Culture bullshit? 

They just hate our freedom, right?  Did they tell you that while holding a coke, listening to Kelly Clarkson on their Walkman and wearing a knockoff Tommy Hilfiger shirt?
2007-07-09 16:06:10
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


No need to be defensive.  I'm just going to suggest one thing....  Why not have a referendum?  If the majority of Iraq wants us to stay, they will vote in favor of it.  If not, then why stay?

We should give the Iraqi people the chance to decide if we leave or stay.
I agree with that but I don't see that as something that the current government there would even consider. They want our help, money and training and I guarantee that they would work around anything like that suggestion. Good idea but personally I don't think it will happen any time soon. Even if there was a referendum...can you imagine the manipulation, scare tactics, threats and down right fraud that would accompany it....it would definitely open up a whole new can of worms.
Well, let me ask you this.  Do you believe that's what happened with the election that put these people into power?
Yes..in a lot of ways. I don't disagree with your suggestion for referendum but it will just never happen. Eventually we will leave one way or another but it will probably come down to our government and their government deciding when....regardless of what American or Iraqi people want. I will say that there are just as many people who would like America to finish what it started in both countries and honestly, whether people want to see it or not, America has done some good in many ways in Iraq.

I just saw a story on the national news about a group of our soldiers who rescued a bunch of "special needs" children from an orphanage. These kids were tied to beds, naked, flies and some near death. If these guys hadn't showed up...most of those kids would be dead. I know a lot of people disagree with what is going on there but for me...I am glad that some of our guys ARE making a difference. Honestly, I was shocked to see some positive news from Iraq, even though it was the last story of the night. At least it was there....of course it came after the typical Paris Hilton BS.
2007-07-09 16:06:24
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7044|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The_Mac wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Yeah, they hate our freedom and democracy.  Simply despise it.  Not to mention our Pop Culture.  Absolutely despise it.  Oh wait...
That's what I'm saying after reading your nonsensical post.
The fact that people say "they hate u' for all things west" is fucking retarded.  That's my point.  How can you say they hate us when they buy copious amounts of US Pop Culture bullshit? 

They just hate our freedom, right?  Did they tell you that while holding a coke, listening to Kelly Clarkson on their Walkman and wearing a knockoff Tommy Hilfiger shirt?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-07-09 16:10:45
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7087
I think the announcement alqueda made regarding iran is total bullshit.  I believe it was made to enrage more and deepen the rift with the shias.  just the other day the news was reporting how Iran allows aqueda to go in and out of their border.  its all fucking propaganda.  sunnis already are suspicious of shiites and iranians in the first place, this is kind of like notarizing their presence.
2007-07-09 16:11:27
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6734|Éire

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I just saw a story on the national news about a group of our soldiers who rescued a bunch of "special needs" children from an orphanage. These kids were tied to beds, naked, flies and some near death. If these guys hadn't showed up...most of those kids would be dead. I know a lot of people disagree with what is going on there but for me...I am glad that some of our guys ARE making a difference. Honestly, I was shocked to see some positive news from Iraq, even though it was the last story of the night. At least it was there....of course it came after the typical Paris Hilton BS.
I saw that story but it's all 'swings and roundabouts', Iraq had a first class health service before the invasion and it certainly doesn't anymore ...for every good side effect of the invasion there is a bad one and vice versa.
2007-07-09 16:15:44
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:


I agree with that but I don't see that as something that the current government there would even consider. They want our help, money and training and I guarantee that they would work around anything like that suggestion. Good idea but personally I don't think it will happen any time soon. Even if there was a referendum...can you imagine the manipulation, scare tactics, threats and down right fraud that would accompany it....it would definitely open up a whole new can of worms.
Well, let me ask you this.  Do you believe that's what happened with the election that put these people into power?
Yes..in a lot of ways. I don't disagree with your suggestion for referendum but it will just never happen. Eventually we will leave one way or another but it will probably come down to our government and their government deciding when....regardless of what American or Iraqi people want. I will say that there are just as many people who would like America to finish what it started in both countries and honestly, whether people want to see it or not, America has done some good in many ways in Iraq.

I just saw a story on the national news about a group of our soldiers who rescued a bunch of "special needs" children from an orphanage. These kids were tied to beds, naked, flies and some near death. If these guys hadn't showed up...most of those kids would be dead. I know a lot of people disagree with what is going on there but for me...I am glad that some of our guys ARE making a difference. Honestly, I was shocked to see some positive news from Iraq, even though it was the last story of the night. At least it was there....of course it came after the typical Paris Hilton BS.
I know what you're saying, but first things first....  If the Iraqi government wasn't legitimately elected into power and the country is just too corrupt for elections, then why not put a puppet state into power?  Saddam was an evil asshole, but he did one thing very well -- instill order.  People were too afraid to fight him much.  If we put someone as brutal as him into power, then this civil war would end very quickly.

Maybe a dictatorship would be better than a weak and corrupt democracy.
2007-07-09 16:18:13
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6734|Éire

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, let me ask you this.  Do you believe that's what happened with the election that put these people into power?
Yes..in a lot of ways. I don't disagree with your suggestion for referendum but it will just never happen. Eventually we will leave one way or another but it will probably come down to our government and their government deciding when....regardless of what American or Iraqi people want. I will say that there are just as many people who would like America to finish what it started in both countries and honestly, whether people want to see it or not, America has done some good in many ways in Iraq.

I just saw a story on the national news about a group of our soldiers who rescued a bunch of "special needs" children from an orphanage. These kids were tied to beds, naked, flies and some near death. If these guys hadn't showed up...most of those kids would be dead. I know a lot of people disagree with what is going on there but for me...I am glad that some of our guys ARE making a difference. Honestly, I was shocked to see some positive news from Iraq, even though it was the last story of the night. At least it was there....of course it came after the typical Paris Hilton BS.
I know what you're saying, but first things first....  If the Iraqi government wasn't legitimately elected into power and the country is just too corrupt for elections, then why not put a puppet state into power?  Saddam was an evil asshole, but he did one thing very well -- instill order.  People were too afraid to fight him much.  If we put someone as brutal as him into power, then this civil war would end very quickly.

Maybe a dictatorship would be better than a weak and corrupt democracy.
And 20 years down the road the US can invade again when he gets too big for his boots ...just like last time.
2007-07-09 16:18:57
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Braddock wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Yes..in a lot of ways. I don't disagree with your suggestion for referendum but it will just never happen. Eventually we will leave one way or another but it will probably come down to our government and their government deciding when....regardless of what American or Iraqi people want. I will say that there are just as many people who would like America to finish what it started in both countries and honestly, whether people want to see it or not, America has done some good in many ways in Iraq.

I just saw a story on the national news about a group of our soldiers who rescued a bunch of "special needs" children from an orphanage. These kids were tied to beds, naked, flies and some near death. If these guys hadn't showed up...most of those kids would be dead. I know a lot of people disagree with what is going on there but for me...I am glad that some of our guys ARE making a difference. Honestly, I was shocked to see some positive news from Iraq, even though it was the last story of the night. At least it was there....of course it came after the typical Paris Hilton BS.
I know what you're saying, but first things first....  If the Iraqi government wasn't legitimately elected into power and the country is just too corrupt for elections, then why not put a puppet state into power?  Saddam was an evil asshole, but he did one thing very well -- instill order.  People were too afraid to fight him much.  If we put someone as brutal as him into power, then this civil war would end very quickly.

Maybe a dictatorship would be better than a weak and corrupt democracy.
And 20 years down the road the US can invade again when he gets too big for his boots ...just like last time.
True...  but that is cheaper than having to stay in Iraq for 20 years to stabilize it.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-07-09 16:19:12)

2007-07-09 16:20:29
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7087
I wouldnt say saddam hussein was too big for his boots during OIF.  he was barely holding on to power.  the infrastructure was crumbling and I believe his military was only a 3rd of its size or less from the first persian gulf war

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-07-09 16:20:56)

2007-07-09 16:24:07
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6734|Éire

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

I wouldnt say saddam hussein was too big for his boots during OIF.  he was barely holding on to power.  the infrastructure was crumbling and I believe his military was only a 3rd of its size or less from the first persian gulf war
By too big for his boots I mean forgetting that he was property of the US Government, if he kept playing for the same team things could've been different for him ...he might even have ended up with a cosy retirement in exile like Pinochet.
2007-07-09 16:26:05
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623
So put in another dictator for another? Of course....that would bite us in the ass some how, some way in the future. It doesn't seem like there are many choices any more. I have always thought that we don't focus enough on domestic issues...there are plenty to address. The middle east is a place where there has been and always will be a fight over this or that land, tribe against tribe, religion against religion and it won't change in our lifetime.

I do feel that we should finish up and at least follow through and support the government there....because what else is there to deal with, then move on. Focus on the real trouble makers and secure ourselves better. As I have said though...America is "damned if we do, damned if we don't". As one of the super powers in this world, we will always be asked for this or that and we will always have to make decisions that will never make everyone happy. We can never be isolationist....that would be impossible. No major country really can be any more.
2007-07-09 16:39:22
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

So put in another dictator for another? Of course....that would bite us in the ass some how, some way in the future. It doesn't seem like there are many choices any more. I have always thought that we don't focus enough on domestic issues...there are plenty to address. The middle east is a place where there has been and always will be a fight over this or that land, tribe against tribe, religion against religion and it won't change in our lifetime.
Good points...  I'm just saying that it's not very pragmatic to put a democracy in a country where ethnic strife is prevalent.  Democracy generally requires a peaceful culture (at least in terms of domestic coherence).

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I do feel that we should finish up and at least follow through and support the government there....because what else is there to deal with, then move on. Focus on the real trouble makers and secure ourselves better. As I have said though...America is "damned if we do, damned if we don't". As one of the super powers in this world, we will always be asked for this or that and we will always have to make decisions that will never make everyone happy. We can never be isolationist....that would be impossible. No major country really can be any more.
We can be, but war profiteers and multi-national corporations won't let us.
2007-07-09 16:43:33
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7186|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

Turquoise wrote:

So...  given all this information, why not leave Iraq and fight the Sunni nutjobs in Afghanistan and Pakistan?  Isn't that more relevant to our own safety than Iraq?
Wahhabism eh? So what about Saudi Arabia? How comes Bush walks about holding hands with them? & even though the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers came from Saudi Arabia, why isn't the might of the US military rolling in there?

https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bush_hand_holding.jpg
2007-07-09 16:48:34
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

IG-Calibre wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

So...  given all this information, why not leave Iraq and fight the Sunni nutjobs in Afghanistan and Pakistan?  Isn't that more relevant to our own safety than Iraq?
Wahhabism eh? So what about Saudi Arabia? How comes Bush walks about holding hands with them? & even though the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers came from Saudi Arabia, why isn't the might of the US military rolling in there?

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/phot … olding.jpg
Oil connections...  lol...  Hey, I see it just as blatantly as you.  Realistically though, we'll never depose that government.  So, instead, we focus on Pakistan.

For what it's worth, though, Saudi Arabia doesn't have nukes, and their government is far more stable.
2007-07-09 16:49:53
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7205

IG-Calibre wrote:

Wahhabism eh? So what about Saudi Arabia? How comes Bush walks about holding hands with them? & even though the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers came from Saudi Arabia, why isn't the might of the US military rolling in there?
Because the relationship was built with them way before GW.

 

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