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2007-07-10 07:27:19
SharkyMcshark
I'll take two
+132|7229|Perth, Western Australia
Let me first start by saying I'm on the fence for this, so please don't be flaming from the get go (mercy, mercy guv'nor!)

Anyway, my question is that, given that WMDs were never found, and that now the main stated reason for going into Iraq was to depose Saddam and enforce democracy, does this create a moral obligation to the US and the other nations in the coalition to intervene/interfere (depending on your point of view) in the affairs of other countries where the people are getting what the US would envisage to be a raw deal?

Countries where the people are ruled over by a dictatorship, countries with an extreme low standard of living, countries with large scale human rights abuses, and war torn countries (esp. in Africa) all fit this bill, and all possess some of the pre conditions that existed in Iraq at the time the US and its allies invaded. So based off the grounds that the US now states that they invaded Iraq to depose Saddam and free it's people, does this mean that they are obliged to help out people form these nations too in a similar manner?

Before kick off let me first say that I'm actually arguing neither point of view, though with that said I'm leaning towards America and her allies minding their own business again (yeah... I was against invading Iraq if you can't tell...).

So yeah game on.
2007-07-10 08:29:38
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6992|San Diego, CA, USA
Not necessarily.  I believe we also thought that Saddam was a threat that Saddam would start to cooperate with the Taliban and al-Qaeda (no need to explain the shite/sunnies differences...I know) - this I believe was exacerbated by the supposeded meeting of Iraqi an al-Qaeda leader in the Eastern Europe.

Notwithstanding the validity of that meeting there were also 17 U.N. resolutions since the first Gulf War.  Saddam could had been alive today if he only allowed U.N. inspectors back into his country.

I don't think its necessarily when a country has a dictator that we want to invade to oust him.  We will, hover, do everything up to that that will pressure them as much as we can unless the general population can be drummed up to believe that country is a threat to ourselves or our allies.  Problem is that some dictatorships are supported/protected by other countries (i.e. North Korea), and so we have less influence.


I think the reason to invade Iraq to "free it's people" was one of those convient afterthoughts that pulled on the freedom-loving Americans heart strings.  To me I didn't support the invasion initially because of that fact, but of the points mentioned earlier in this post.


I think if we went in with 400,000 troops almost none of what we are seeing today would had happened and we would had been out 2 years ago.  Rumsfeld was wrong.

Last edited by Harmor (2007-07-10 08:32:21)

2007-07-10 12:28:12
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999
No it doesn't create a moral obligation. All it means is that the US, the UK and their cohorts are responsible for a hell of a lot of irreparable carnage in a distant part of the world that should never have concerned them. Nothing more, nothing less. Staying or leaving changes nothing. You can't fix it and leaving is no skin of your nose - US, UK and the 'coalition of the drilling's' credibility has already been well and truly utterly decimated (assuming they actually had any credibility in the first place).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-10 12:30:11)

2007-07-10 12:55:12
Jepeto87
Member
+38|7129|Dublin
I think it does but clearly there not going to do it! (those poor north Koreans) I also think there morally obliged to fix Iraq though how they'd do that I dont know!
2007-07-10 13:19:31
imortal
Member
+240|7108|Austin, TX

CameronPoe wrote:

No it doesn't create a moral obligation. All it means is that the US, the UK and their cohorts are responsible for a hell of a lot of irreparable carnage in a distant part of the world that should never have concerned them. Nothing more, nothing less. Staying or leaving changes nothing. You can't fix it and leaving is no skin of your nose - US, UK and the 'coalition of the drilling's' credibility has already been well and truly utterly decimated (assuming they actually had any credibility in the first place).
Well, unlike you, I do feel a sense of responsibility for making the situation worse, and that suggests an obligation to improve life there.  I am not talking about "making it a democracy" or a bastion of freedom, but the US and its allies did create a situation into which these "insurgants" have propogated.

The major goal of these people is not to get the US out.  That is a neccesary step, but the final goal is the creation of another Shia controlled theological state, just like Iran.  Which is Iran has been training and supporting these people since the war began.

Of course, the Shiite faction justs wants to kill the Great Satan.  If you can imply 'just' in that statement.

Either way, things suck for the Iraqi people.  The people who just want to get by.  The bystanders.  They were happy to lose Saddam, and I doubt they really want either of those two extremist factions to win.  But they don't want the US there.  The US is associated with bringing all this down on them.  Under those circumstances, I would want me out too.

But will leaving help?  The Iraqi goverment has proven itself too ineffectual (no suprise for anyone aquainted with the personal values a lot (not all; just the ones seeking power) seem to have.  Unless you have seen it for yourself, it is simply unbelievable.  I think leaving, especially quickly, just creates a power vacuum for these people to move into, and that is escaping a situation now, and just setting in motion a series of events we will rue years down the line.

I am tired of war, yes.  I spent time in Iraq, I have the right to be tired of it.  I am dissapointed with the senior military leadership for not adjusting strategies to fit the situation.  I want resolution.  I do not want to just run home.  Finish The Job.   We broke it, we have to see it through until it is fixed.

 

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