topal63 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
topal63 wrote:
sergeriver wrote:
While there's not enough historical evidence to prove Jesus existence, there's not enough evidence to deny it. Most scholars , not religious, will say that Jesus did exist. A few historians reject this. But, if you consider the Bible as a history book, with all its fairy tales and fables included, then you could think there was a Jewish guy called Jesus or whatever, who lived by that time.
I think you are misunderstanding the historical Jesus problem.
There is no such thing as evidence for non-existence. There is such a thing as evidence that implies existence, but not the converse. Also, you will find that the scholars (you're thinking of) will say they accept that Jesus proablably existed. And that is merely a belief.
Also, I doubt you've actually examined the evidence as it is basically non-existent. The actual (Biblical scholarship) evidence amounts to argumentation and not actual evidence.
I'm not saying he existed, but I can't say he didn't. Besides, it's not my job to examine the evidence, I'm not archaeologist. Did you watch the documentary of Discovery Channel about The lost tomb of Jesus? What I say is we don't know for sure he didn't exist. Not as a guy who resucitated and walked over the water, but as a person who was involved into politics.
Yes, I watched it, it is recycled old news. Nothing new actually.
Also saying a face-less, nameless person (as Jesus, the name, is not a Jewish name; it is a Greek name construct) who did not come from the non-existent town of Nazareth; that this mythical figure which is an amalgam/conflation of Greek mysticism, God-man dying myths, Jewish messianic thought - sprinkled with a little buddhistic & Greek philosophical ideas, but cannot be identified as real person - is a historical person is an absurd opinion (IMO).
It depends what you are attaching to the persona, is all. Do I think that a person (and we will call him Jesus) existed? Yes. Do I think he travelled the land and delivered sermons? Most likely. Do I think he was born of a virgin birth? No, that is a very common attribute given to most people that are thought to be divine at the time. Do I think he rose from the dead? No, I think his body was most likely stolen away by his diciples to add to his mystique.
The Gospels were not written until 20 years or so after the time he was to have died. As such, there was planty of time for the myth to grow in the telling. What do I think really happened? I think a very charismatic Jewish man was baptised into a 'fringe cult' and adopted the attitudes, tried to reconcile them with his religion, came up with a new spin on things, and went forth to try to show others his 'truth.' Being very charismatic, he gathered many followers, and began to really convert people to his new faith. I think that the local Jewish authorities found him a threat, and used the Romans to have him killed. I think his followers kept spreading the message, mostly by word of mouth, and that the tales kept growing in the telling. By the time they were written down, all sorts of new additions were made. Also, some people made up moralty tales with Jesus as a main character, and used those to try to pass a message. I think that at a gathering of leaders of this new 'faith,' they established a core system of beliefs and decided exactly what tales and what versions they would use in their teachings. They called this collection the "Bible."
Now, does any of that seem particualary unreasonable? Mystical? Improbable? I do not think so.
And so what? Most of the purpose of a religion, after all, is a method of teaching us how to live together in peace, and to create a sense of self withing ones personal universe. To create a sense of being and involvement. These are basic human needs. Religion fulfills those needs. Other people can use other methods to fill those same needs, so everyone does not NEED a formalized religion. However, everyone does have a system of core beliefs that occupies the same area of your psyche.
I, personally, am not concerned with whether Jesus actually existed. It is the IDEA of him that is important. It is the MESSAGE which should be listened to. Pull apart all of the metaphysical nonsense, and there is a very simple core message that makes as much sense now as it did then. It is a simple idea of how to get along with your neighbors, and how to live your life in a way you (and your family) can be proud of.
In that respect, I think nearly all religions are alike. I hate to quote a movie, (and a +1 karma to everyone to PMs me with the source of the quote) but "I don't care what you believe, just BELIEVE in it."