Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571
This from The New York Times???????




Op-Ed Contributor
A War We Just Might Win


By MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK
Published: July 30, 2007



VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.




http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opini … ref=slogin

Last edited by Comrade Ogilvy (2007-07-30 13:31:19)

Balok77
Member
+28|6590
Military terms? in military terms a win would mean everyone died lol

I'm sorry every single day i watch the news there is something to do with Iraq, and it is always to do with death, car bombings and suicide bombings as well as kidnappings.....remind me how your winning??? great the Iraqi police are being trained to use weapons better,, how about making schools or hospitals rather than giving more guns to a police force that even its Leaders admit that half of their men are corrupt.

Last edited by Balok77 (2007-07-30 13:35:09)

topal63
. . .
+533|7160
Third of Iraqis 'need urgent aid' by sergeriver : http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=82597
1.) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6921617.stm

Then this one:
2.) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opini … ref=slogin

Odd two articles with different perspectives both dated: Monday, 30 July 2007.

More Monday madness:
http://www.aim.org/aim_column/5637_0_3_0_C/
"But Iraq isn't the only problem ... [for republicans]. Bush is now working with the U.N. to create a Muslim state in Kosovo."
And More Monday fun!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor … d=12349890
"Bush administration said Monday a $20 billion military sales package to Arab countries will promote stability in a Middle East threatened by terrorism and Iran's weapons ambitions. ...

The new sales to Arab countries, notably Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states, will be balanced with a more than 25 percent increase in military aid to Israel over the next 10 years. This will enable the Jewish state to keep its qualitative military edge over neighbors with which it has no peace deal.

Israel will receive a total of $30 billion in U.S. military assistance while Egypt, which along with Jordan has made peace with Israel, will get $13 billion as part of the broader package."

Last edited by topal63 (2007-07-30 14:16:39)

Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571

Balok77 wrote:

Military terms? in military terms a win would mean everyone died lol

I'm sorry every single day i watch the news there is something to do with Iraq, and it is always to do with death, car bombings and suicide bombings as well as kidnappings.....remind me how your winning??? great the Iraqi police are being trained to use weapons better,, how about making schools or hospitals rather than giving more guns to a police force that even its Leaders admit that half of their men are corrupt.
From the article....

"Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done."
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6997
Time will tell but I just can't see how an occupation force can get the political legitimacy and popular support across a variety of ethnicities and creeds that hate each other to make it work. 

A statement by Robert McNamara, then Secretary of Defence, at the end of the Vietnam war springs to mind:

"There is no evidence that the South Vietnamese would ever have been able to accomplish on their own what they failed to achieve with massive American assistance. The level of congressional funding was irrelevant … The Nixon administration, like the Johnson administration before it, could not give the South Vietnamese the essential ingredient for success: genuine indigenous political legitimacy."

You'll just be keeping a lid on a tinder box. When the US withdraws the whole thing will probably come tumbling back down again. The report you post seems to contradict sharply the report issued by Oxfam only the other day.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-30 13:58:43)

IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6932|Northern California
Yep, I've long sinced wondered what "their" definition of "WINNING" is?  If someone in this forum can clear that up, I'd be much obliged.

As far is I can see, a "war on terror" cannot be won militarily.  Religious/Ideological genocide would be the only way, and it's still not a guarantee.  As long as we have enemies....we will never win.  So what then would the solution be???  Let's take a big step in the direction of reality..and yes, it happens to be a market cornered by the no-war pinko commie tree-hugger crowd, and their idea is to repair the broken bridges Bush (and Clinton, and probably some other foreign policy losers before him) has torn down over the years.  It's obvious that this huge arms deal with Israel alone will cause yet more hate for us.
daddyofdeath
A REAL Combat Engineer in the house
+187|6695|UK Bradford W,Yorks. Age 27

Balok77 wrote:

Military terms? in military terms a win would mean everyone died lol

I'm sorry every single day i watch the news there is something to do with Iraq, and it is always to do with death, car bombings and suicide bombings as well as kidnappings.....remind me how your winning??? great the Iraqi police are being trained to use weapons better,, how about making schools or hospitals rather than giving more guns to a police force that even its Leaders admit that half of their men are corrupt.
Thats propaganda for you, they always show the death toll, do they ever tell the good stories? Of vital aid supplies being delivered, vital construction stuff to build new hospitals and schools? They never do.
Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571

CameronPoe wrote:

Time will tell but I just can't see how an occupation force can get the political legitimacy and popular support across a variety of ethnicities and creeds that hate each other to make it work. 

A statement by Robert McNamara, then Secretary of Defence, at the end of the Vietnam war springs to mind:

"There is no evidence that the South Vietnamese would ever have been able to accomplish on their own what they failed to achieve with massive American assistance. The level of congressional funding was irrelevant … The Nixon administration, like the Johnson administration before it, could not give the South Vietnamese the essential ingredient for success: genuine indigenous political legitimacy."

You'll just be keeping a lid on a tinder box. When the US withdraws the whole thing will probably come tumbling back down again. The report you post seems to contradict sharply the report issued by Oxfam only the other day.
Secretary of Defense


President-elect John F. Kennedy first offered the post of secretary of defense to former secretary Robert A. Lovett. Lovett declined but recommended McNamara; Kennedy had him approached by Sargent Shriver (regarding either the Treasury or the Defense cabinet post), less than five weeks after becoming president at Ford. At first McNamara turned down the Treasury position, but eventually after discussions with his family, McNamara accepted Kennedy's invitation to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Although not especially knowledgeable about defense matters, McNamara immersed himself in the subject, learned quickly, and soon began to apply an "active role" management philosophy, in his own words "providing aggressive leadership questioning, suggesting alternatives, proposing objectives and stimulating progress."


McNamara mismanaged the military...something he had little or no experience in then tried te rewrite history. But saying that the two wars are totally different in the aspect that no neighboring countries are invading Iraq (unless you want to include terrorist from Iran and Syria).
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6997

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Time will tell but I just can't see how an occupation force can get the political legitimacy and popular support across a variety of ethnicities and creeds that hate each other to make it work. 

A statement by Robert McNamara, then Secretary of Defence, at the end of the Vietnam war springs to mind:

"There is no evidence that the South Vietnamese would ever have been able to accomplish on their own what they failed to achieve with massive American assistance. The level of congressional funding was irrelevant … The Nixon administration, like the Johnson administration before it, could not give the South Vietnamese the essential ingredient for success: genuine indigenous political legitimacy."

You'll just be keeping a lid on a tinder box. When the US withdraws the whole thing will probably come tumbling back down again. The report you post seems to contradict sharply the report issued by Oxfam only the other day.
Secretary of Defense


President-elect John F. Kennedy first offered the post of secretary of defense to former secretary Robert A. Lovett. Lovett declined but recommended McNamara; Kennedy had him approached by Sargent Shriver (regarding either the Treasury or the Defense cabinet post), less than five weeks after becoming president at Ford. At first McNamara turned down the Treasury position, but eventually after discussions with his family, McNamara accepted Kennedy's invitation to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Although not especially knowledgeable about defense matters, McNamara immersed himself in the subject, learned quickly, and soon began to apply an "active role" management philosophy, in his own words "providing aggressive leadership questioning, suggesting alternatives, proposing objectives and stimulating progress."


McNamara mismanaged the military...something he had little or no experience in then tried te rewrite history. But saying that the two wars are totally different in the aspect that no neighboring countries are invading Iraq (unless you want to include terrorist from Iran and Syria).
The problem isn't a military one - it's a political one, just like in Vietnam. Confidence in the government is poor. When people like Moqtada Al Sadr hold too much sway with the common folk then you know you've got problems. The actual percentage of Iraqis that elected the 'government' was pretty poor. There are thousands of Saudis being caught all the time in Iraq and rumours of Iranian weapons support to the Sh'ias. The situation is actually similar to Vietnam but not quite as vicious and not so bad for the US military. What is different is that are solid boots on the ground this time unlike in Vietnam where an approach of 'firebombs and napalm' was supposed to produce political change. That only time that tactic works is when you pummel them into near-non-existence, which isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to be doing if you want to demonstrate the 'values' of 'democracy' to a 'liberated' people.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-30 15:05:09)

IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6932|Northern California

daddyofdeath wrote:

Balok77 wrote:

Military terms? in military terms a win would mean everyone died lol

I'm sorry every single day i watch the news there is something to do with Iraq, and it is always to do with death, car bombings and suicide bombings as well as kidnappings.....remind me how your winning??? great the Iraqi police are being trained to use weapons better,, how about making schools or hospitals rather than giving more guns to a police force that even its Leaders admit that half of their men are corrupt.
Thats propaganda for you, they always show the death toll, do they ever tell the good stories? Of vital aid supplies being delivered, vital construction stuff to build new hospitals and schools? They never do.
Yes, we GET IT.  There are soldiers hugging kids, playing soccer with them, building things, escorting people safely, and making some friends.  However, that is NOT why our military is there.  We are there to create contracts for White House special interests (halliburton, unocal, blackwater, etc.).  But the public reason we're there is to remove saddam hussein (done).  But then it shifted into being there to give the iraqis their own dictator free state..and oh  yeah, fight the muslims who CAME TO IRAQ to fight us because we were there first and occupied that country.

As for propaganda?  Tell me how McCain's visit with a full military escort including about 100 troops, helicopters and probably some armor..so he can "prove" it's safe to walk around? 

Here is some smack down on your propaganda!
Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571

CameronPoe wrote:

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Time will tell but I just can't see how an occupation force can get the political legitimacy and popular support across a variety of ethnicities and creeds that hate each other to make it work. 

A statement by Robert McNamara, then Secretary of Defence, at the end of the Vietnam war springs to mind:

"There is no evidence that the South Vietnamese would ever have been able to accomplish on their own what they failed to achieve with massive American assistance. The level of congressional funding was irrelevant … The Nixon administration, like the Johnson administration before it, could not give the South Vietnamese the essential ingredient for success: genuine indigenous political legitimacy."

You'll just be keeping a lid on a tinder box. When the US withdraws the whole thing will probably come tumbling back down again. The report you post seems to contradict sharply the report issued by Oxfam only the other day.
Secretary of Defense


President-elect John F. Kennedy first offered the post of secretary of defense to former secretary Robert A. Lovett. Lovett declined but recommended McNamara; Kennedy had him approached by Sargent Shriver (regarding either the Treasury or the Defense cabinet post), less than five weeks after becoming president at Ford. At first McNamara turned down the Treasury position, but eventually after discussions with his family, McNamara accepted Kennedy's invitation to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Although not especially knowledgeable about defense matters, McNamara immersed himself in the subject, learned quickly, and soon began to apply an "active role" management philosophy, in his own words "providing aggressive leadership questioning, suggesting alternatives, proposing objectives and stimulating progress."


McNamara mismanaged the military...something he had little or no experience in then tried te rewrite history. But saying that the two wars are totally different in the aspect that no neighboring countries are invading Iraq (unless you want to include terrorist from Iran and Syria).
The problem isn't a military one - it's a political one, just like in Vietnam. Confidence in the government is poor. When people like Moqtada Al Sadr hold too much sway with the common folk then you know you've got problems. The actual percentage of Iraqis that elected the 'government' was pretty poor. There are thousands of Saudis being caught all the time in Iraq and rumours of Iranian weapons support to the Sh'ias. The situation is actually similar to Vietnam but not quite as vicious and not so bad for the US military. What is different is that are solid boots on the ground this time unlike in Vietnam where an approach of 'firebombs and napalm' was supposed to produce political change. That only time that tactic works is when you pummel them into near-non-existence, which isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to be doing if you want to demonstrate the 'values' of 'democracy' to a 'liberated' people.
All wars are connected politically...Causewitz's famous line that "War is merely a continuation of politics," comes to mind. Either the Iraq people will want to live in peace or go on to civil war is up to them...we amd the U.K. are providing them a window to do so.


"Confidence in the government is poor. When people like Moqtada Al Sadr hold too much sway with the common folk then you know you've got problems"

He will either knuckle under the Iraq govt. or be eliminated soon.



"There are thousands of Saudis being caught all the time in Iraq and rumours of Iranian weapons support to the Sh'ias. The situation is actually similar to Vietnam but not quite as vicious and not so bad for the US military."

Not even remotely like the NVA invading S. Vietnam and hiding in Laos and Cambodia.



"unlike in Vietnam where an approach of 'firebombs and napalm' was supposed to produce political change. That only time that tactic works is when you pummel them into near-non-existence, which isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to be doing if you want to demonstrate the 'values' of 'democracy' to a 'liberated' people"

Get real ....most napalm was directed at NVA troops in the jungle
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6997

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

All wars are connected politically...Causewitz's famous line that "War is merely a continuation of politics," comes to mind. Either the Iraq people will want to live in peace or go on to civil war is up to them...we amd the U.K. are providing them a window to do so.
At the moment it kind of looks like they would like to choose civil war. After all the borders of their 'country' were just arbitrary lines sketched on a map by some British diplomat after the fall of the Ottoman empire.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"Confidence in the government is poor. When people like Moqtada Al Sadr hold too much sway with the common folk then you know you've got problems"

He will either knuckle under the Iraq govt. or be eliminated soon.
Kill him and you turn him into a martyr. He is a hero to many poor Sh'ia as his father was a hero of resistance against Saddam. You can't 'eliminate' popular figures: that does not buy you 'genuine indigenous political legitimacy'. If anything it will make many Sh'ia even more militantly anti-US. And as for knuckling under the Iraq government? They couldn't even pressure him to staying in the crumbling ruling coalition: he withdrew his guys last year sometime.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"There are thousands of Saudis being caught all the time in Iraq and rumours of Iranian weapons support to the Sh'ias. The situation is actually similar to Vietnam but not quite as vicious and not so bad for the US military."

Not even remotely like the NVA invading S. Vietnam and hiding in Laos and Cambodia.
Of course it ain't identical but there are other external factors and external parties involved.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"unlike in Vietnam where an approach of 'firebombs and napalm' was supposed to produce political change. That only time that tactic works is when you pummel them into near-non-existence, which isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to be doing if you want to demonstrate the 'values' of 'democracy' to a 'liberated' people"

Get real ....most napalm was directed at NVA troops in the jungle
You forget that the NVA were fighting in the name of an ideology that a great many Vietnamese admired and held to. Bombing the shit out of them isn't exactly doing your 'freedom' and 'democracy' case much good. It's part of the reason Vietnam was doomed from the start: a foreign power that has entered a war with a nation purely by choice cannot significantly influence the culture, ideology or pride of a people simply by force. It generally produces fierce resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Viet … al_history

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-30 16:45:22)

Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571

CameronPoe wrote:

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

All wars are connected politically...Causewitz's famous line that "War is merely a continuation of politics," comes to mind. Either the Iraq people will want to live in peace or go on to civil war is up to them...we amd the U.K. are providing them a window to do so.
At the moment it kind of looks like they would like to choose civil war. After all the borders of their 'country' were just arbitrary lines sketched on a map by some British diplomat after the fall of the Ottoman empire.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"Confidence in the government is poor. When people like Moqtada Al Sadr hold too much sway with the common folk then you know you've got problems"

He will either knuckle under the Iraq govt. or be eliminated soon.
Kill him and you turn him into a martyr. He is a hero to many poor Sh'ia as his father was a hero of resistance against Saddam. You can't 'eliminate' popular figures: that does not buy you 'genuine indigenous political legitimacy'. If anything it will make many Sh'ia even more militantly anti-US. And as for knuckling under the Iraq government? They couldn't even pressure him to staying in the crumbling ruling coalition: he withdrew his guys last year sometime.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"There are thousands of Saudis being caught all the time in Iraq and rumours of Iranian weapons support to the Sh'ias. The situation is actually similar to Vietnam but not quite as vicious and not so bad for the US military."

Not even remotely like the NVA invading S. Vietnam and hiding in Laos and Cambodia.
Of course it ain't identical but there are other external factors and external parties involved.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

"unlike in Vietnam where an approach of 'firebombs and napalm' was supposed to produce political change. That only time that tactic works is when you pummel them into near-non-existence, which isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to be doing if you want to demonstrate the 'values' of 'democracy' to a 'liberated' people"

Get real ....most napalm was directed at NVA troops in the jungle
You forget that the NVA were fighting in the name of an ideology that a great many Vietnamese admired and held to. Bombing the shit out of them isn't exactly doing your 'freedom' and 'democracy' case much good. It's part of the reason Vietnam was doomed from the start: a foreign power that has entered a war with a nation purely by choice cannot significantly influence the culture, ideology or pride of a people simply by force. It generally produces fierce resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Viet … al_history
"And as for knuckling under the Iraq government? They couldn't even pressure him to staying in the crumbling ruling coalition: he withdrew his guys last year sometime."

Fat boy is just a stooge for  Iran...didn`t he flee to Iran a few months ago?...for Iraq to work he will have to be eliminated one way or another.



"You forget that the NVA were fighting in the name of an ideology that a great many Vietnamese admired and held to. Bombing the shit out of them isn't exactly doing your 'freedom' and 'democracy' case much good. It's part of the reason Vietnam was doomed from the start: a foreign power that has entered a war with a nation purely by choice cannot significantly influence the culture, ideology or pride of a people simply by force. It generally produces fierce resistance."

Is that why the NVA had to invade the south to conquer them...where was the popular up rising during TET 68...NEVER HAPPENED!
Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571
BY JAMES TARANTO
Monday, July 30, 2007 4:32 p.m. EDT

On Second Thought, Don't Surrender




In an important and surprising New York Times op-ed piece, Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack, both from the liberal Brookings Institution, describe a visit to Iraq, where they find that things are not as bad as--well, as New York Times readers have been led to believe. The piece is titled "A War We Just Might Win":

    Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration's miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily "victory" but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

    After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated--many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

    Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

O'Hanlon and Pollack report that Sunni sheikhs in Anbar province "are close to crippling Al Qaeda and its Salafist allies," that "the Iraqis have stepped up to the plate" in the northern cities of Tal Afar and Mosul, and that "the American high command assesses that more than three-quarters of the Iraqi Army battalion commanders in Baghdad are now reliable partners."

They say the situation "remains grave," especially on the "political front," but they counsel against a quick retreat, as many Democrats on Capitol Hill have been advocating:

    How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

In a way, though, what is most telling about this piece is the introduction:

    Viewed from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration's critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that the authors are right when they claim the Bush administration has "lost essentially all credibility." Does this excuse the administration's critics for being "unaware of the significant changes taking place"--especially when some of those critics have, for reasons of partisanship, ideology or just plain animus, actively campaigned to destroy the administration's credibility?

In the critics' defense, one may say that they have not, by and large, been in positions of responsibility; that if things have gone wrong in Iraq, the administration deserves the lion's share of the blame.

On the other hand, those critics now include the leaders of both houses of Congress, as well as several politicians who would like to become president. For them, at least, it is a serious failure of leadership if they base their views on Iraq on their own disdain for President Bush, or the hope of exploiting voters' disdain for him, rather than on reality



http://opinionjournal.com/best/

Last edited by Comrade Ogilvy (2007-07-30 17:01:11)

Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6990|San Diego, CA, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Time will tell but I just can't see how an occupation force can get the political legitimacy and popular support across a variety of ethnicities and creeds that hate each other to make it work.
Perhaps all this rhetoric of pull-out makes them realize that if we do leave that there will be mass genocide?  So maybe we are the lesser of two evils, because not, at least, local Imams are actually cooperating with coalition troops?

CameronPoe wrote:

You'll just be keeping a lid on a tinder box. When the US withdraws the whole thing will probably come tumbling back down again. The report you post seems to contradict sharply the report issued by Oxfam only the other day.
From what we have turned over to the Iraqi, so far, has just been squandered or completely mismanaged.  I'm afraid that when we pull back to the borders and outside of the major cities that it will just be a giant blood bath.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6997

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

Fat boy is just a stooge for  Iran...didn`t he flee to Iran a few months ago?...for Iraq to work he will have to be eliminated one way or another.
That makes no sense whatsoever. You would lose Iraq hook, line and sinker. Analogy time: An Arab army invades and occupies the US in the name of 'liberating' the US and changing the regime. A US evangelist, whose father was killed by the previous administration, rallies support amongst Christian America - he develops a following of several hundred thousands, perhaps millions. The Arab occupiers shoot him in the head. Now tell me: is that going to pacify his supporters and put an end to their resistance? No.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

Is that why the NVA had to invade the south to conquer them...where was the popular up rising during TET 68...NEVER HAPPENED!
That is one way in which the Vietnam war differs significantly from the Iraq war. You can't just split countries in two like what happened in Vietnam, Germany and Korea: they eventually reunite and it usually means one ideology has to win out over the other in a civil war. No such internal strife existed under Saddam ... until the US invaded.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-07-31 11:58:21)

Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571

CameronPoe wrote:

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

Fat boy is just a stooge for  Iran...didn`t he flee to Iran a few months ago?...for Iraq to work he will have to be eliminated one way or another.
That makes no sense whatsoever. You would lose Iraq hook, line and sinker. Analogy time: An Arab army invades and occupies the US in the name of 'liberating' the US and changing the regime. A US evangelist, whose father was killed by the previous administration, rallies support amongst Christian America - he develops a following of several hundred thousands, perhaps millions. The Arab occupiers shoot him in the head. Now tell me: is that going to pacify his supporters and put an end to their resistance? No.

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

Is that why the NVA had to invade the south to conquer them...where was the popular up rising during TET 68...NEVER HAPPENED!
That is one way in which the Vietnam war differs significantly from the Iraq war. You can't just split countries in two like what happened in Vietnam, Germany and Korea: they eventually reunite and it usually means one ideology has to win out over the other in a civil war. No such internal strife existed under Saddam ... until the US invaded.
A civilized country has no need for a standing militia...



"No such internal strife existed under Saddam ... until the US invaded."

There usually isnt under a dictator.
Comrade Ogilvy
Member
+7|6571
BY JAMES TARANTO
Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:15 p.m. EDT




United We Fall?


It seems to us that there is something to be said for the idea that when America is at war, citizens, and especially political leaders, have a patriotic duty to put differences aside in the cause of victory. We oppose government censorship but wish for more self-restraint on the part of war opponents.

We realize, of course, that this idea died for at least a generation with Vietnam, and it may not return, at least until the baby boomers have passed from the scene. But one baby-boomer in Congress wants to bring it back--in reverse. The Associated Press reports:

    Kansas Rep. Nancy Boyda is defending her decision to step out of a hearing room last week while a retired Army general testified about U.S. progress in Iraq. . . .

    Boyda, a freshman Democrat from Topeka, said she left the House Armed Services Committee hearing on Friday for about 10 minutes during the testimony of retired Gen. Jack Keane. . . .

    Keane had testified that since the troop surge began, U.S. forces "are on the offensive and we have the momentum." He also said that security has improved in every neighborhood and district in and around Baghdad, and that "cafés, pool halls, coffee houses that I visited are full of people."

    When Boyda returned to the hearing, she ridiculed Keane's description of Iraq "as in some way or another that it's a place that I might take the family for a vacation--things are going so well--those kinds of comments will in fact show up in the media and further divide this country instead of saying, 'Here's the reality of the problem.' "

Boyda, it seems, wants to suppress information about success in Iraq, because such information would "divide the country." Better that the country be united in defeatism. Along similar lines is this report from yesterday's Washington Post:

    House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) said Monday that a strongly positive report on progress on Iraq by Army Gen. David Petraeus likely would split Democrats in the House and impede his party's efforts to press for a timetable to end the war. . . .

    Many Democrats have anticipated that, at best, Petraeus and U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker would present a mixed analysis of the success of the current troop surge strategy, given continued violence in Baghdad. But of late there have been signs that the commander of U.S. forces might be preparing something more generally positive. Clyburn said that would be "a real big problem for us."

What does it say about Clyburn's party that if things go well for America, it would be "a real big problem for us"?


http://opinionjournal.com/best/

Last edited by Comrade Ogilvy (2007-07-31 15:04:48)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6847|North Carolina
Why don't we just say we won, and then leave?  Didn't the PM or someone else high up in the Iraqi government already express his desire for Iraq to operate independently?

We could hold a referendum to see if the majority of Iraqis want us to leave, and if they do, then hey....  that's a mandate, isn't it?

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