Are Religious People the Most Selfish of All?

2007-12-02 20:31:04

#1

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

Interesting thought popped into my head today. Please note that this thought was a ditty and not something I completely agree with, but it's a possibility and an interesting facet of religion to think about.

Why do religious people act with such morality in their lives and try to behave the best they can in the eyes of their god? Why do they claim to care about their fellow man and go on missions, etc. to help others to try and impress their god?

To get into Heaven, right? They believe in an afterlife and are told that by being on their best behavior now, they'll be in a wonderful magical place once they die.

Isn't that a bit selfish? Being nice to other people, living a moral and ethical lifestyle, donating to charity... all this to please their god and get into their heaven of choice.

So then what about non-religious people? I'm not religious at all, but I still lead a moral lifestyle and help my fellow man out. And I know that at the end of all this, I won't be going anywhere but the ground. Sure I'm kind of bound by societal standards that tell me how to behave, etc., but I can easily break them, just like many people do, without fear of going to the fiery pits of Hell.

Do you think it's possible that religious people are in it just for themselves? They do all this brown-nosing for God in hopes of getting themselves into the exclusive club of Heaven?

2007-12-02 20:32:56

#2

S.Lythberg: Mastermind; +429|6885|Chicago, IL

Actually, ive often wondered that myself.

I assume an atheist who does a good deed is much more selfless, knowing that he wont ever be rewarded for his actions.

2007-12-02 20:35:02

#3

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|7123|United States of America

I don't believe that is why anyone helps. It's not to earn "points," so to speak, to get into Heaven. Religious people in general aren't THAT different from everyone else. If they help someone, it's probably for the same reasons you do. Hell, I can't recall a single instance where I've helped someone with religion in mind while doing so. It doesn't take up as much of someone's life as others think. After all, it's really your personality that influences you.

2007-12-02 20:36:29

#4

Havok: Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist; +302|7113|Florida, United States

Well to be fair, if you call a religious person selfish for doing good things for other in expectation of reward, you'd have to call atheists and other non-believers lazy for not taking effort to be religious. In other words, it's silly logic.

2007-12-02 20:37:30

#5

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

But what about when they go on missions? Go traveling in hopes of converting other people to their religion. Surely it's on their mind then? "Oh boy if I can convert these locals I'll make God happy and get into Heaven!"

What about when they blow themselves up? "Oh boy Allah will be so proud of me! I'm going to kill all these non-believers and at the end of it all I'll be in paradise with a bunch of virgins!"

2007-12-02 20:39:38

#6

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

Havok wrote:
Well to be fair, if you call a religious person selfish for doing good things for other in expectation of reward, you'd have to call atheists and other non-believers lazy for not taking effort to be religious. In other words, it's silly logic.

How are atheists lazy for not taking effort to be religious? What if they take effort in learning material from science courses and going to school and learning that we evolved and weren't created? You can't say one person is too lazy to learn and believe in someone else's beliefs when that person already has a system of beliefs of their own.

2007-12-02 20:41:32

#7

CDK3Y: Member; +25|6577|BEHIND YOU!

The five pillars of Islam are : Shahadat, which means believing in oneness of God and his prophet, Salah which is praying 5 times a day, Sawm, which is fasting during Ramadan, Hajj which is the holy pilgrimage and Zakat, which is giving charity....so basically a good, following muslim should be one on the most giving person ...five duties incumbent on every Muslim....so if a muslim doesnt do one of the five.....hes in for some trouble in the afterlife.....i think i got 2/5 done right now lol!

2007-12-02 20:48:15

#8

Havok: Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist; +302|7113|Florida, United States

mtb0minime wrote:
Havok wrote:
Well to be fair, if you call a religious person selfish for doing good things for other in expectation of reward, you'd have to call atheists and other non-believers lazy for not taking effort to be religious. In other words, it's silly logic.
How are atheists lazy for not taking effort to be religious? What if they take effort in learning material from science courses and going to school and learning that we evolved and weren't created? You can't say one person is too lazy to learn and believe in someone else's beliefs when that person already has a system of beliefs of their own.

I'm just trying to provide an alternate viewpoint. It seems like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel if you wish to mock religious people for being good people. I was trying to provide a similar example for atheism. It's a poor example but I can't think of anything parallel.

2007-12-02 20:54:55

#9

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

Havok wrote:
mtb0minime wrote:
Havok wrote:
Well to be fair, if you call a religious person selfish for doing good things for other in expectation of reward, you'd have to call atheists and other non-believers lazy for not taking effort to be religious. In other words, it's silly logic.
How are atheists lazy for not taking effort to be religious? What if they take effort in learning material from science courses and going to school and learning that we evolved and weren't created? You can't say one person is too lazy to learn and believe in someone else's beliefs when that person already has a system of beliefs of their own.
I'm just trying to provide an alternate viewpoint. It seems like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel if you wish to mock religious people for being good people. I was trying to provide a similar example for atheism. It's a poor example but I can't think of anything parallel.

I'm not saying I seriously believe all religious people are selfish, like I said in my first post, I'm just entertaining this brief thought a little. I've got nothing against religious or non-religious people at all. I doubt the majority of religious people are in fact selfish people, but sometimes it seems that they will grudgingly do non-selfish things only for the payoff in the long run.

2007-12-02 20:55:02

#10

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6843|North Carolina

DesertFox- wrote:
I don't believe that is why anyone helps. It's not to earn "points," so to speak, to get into Heaven. Religious people in general aren't THAT different from everyone else. If they help someone, it's probably for the same reasons you do. Hell, I can't recall a single instance where I've helped someone with religion in mind while doing so. It doesn't take up as much of someone's life as others think. After all, it's really your personality that influences you.

True, but personality is often affected heavily by dogma. A lot of religious dogma is oriented toward fear -- like the concept of hell.

So, I would argue that many people fit the OP's description quite well. Whether or not they make up the majority of religious people is not really something I can logically determine. As cynical as I am, I still am not able to assume that most people are as selfish as the OP suggests, but he definitely makes some good points....

2007-12-03 00:13:02

#11

konfusion: mostly afk; +480|6988|CH/BR - in UK

I think this is a very interesting theory on religions in general. Most people who follow a religion fear what will happen if they don't follow the rules, as Turquoise stated above. And by follow, I mean those who go to church every Sunday and pray daily.
And then there are others, who are forced into these rules by family/community pressure.

So either way, they're forced to be nice.

It really is an interesting theory...

-konfusion

2007-12-03 00:15:08

#12

Catbox: forgiveness; +505|7154

Ill ask you this... isn't it a good feeling when you do something nice for someone...?
Why do you think a lot of actors and musicians become rich and succesful and realize that life isn't about fame or money or even them... Then they spend a lot of time donating and helping others... You can have everything and nothing at all at the same time... I do nice things for people and don't expect anything... its a cool concept...

Love is the answer

2007-12-03 00:18:50

#13

Moo? Si!: Tall, Dark, Antlered; +39|6566|817---->907

You should specify Christianity rather than use the term Religious People. There are many "religious" people who do good things for others that could care less about missions, Jesus or any other magical invisible sky wizard.

2007-12-03 01:07:04

#14

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6568|North Tonawanda, NY

[TUF]Catbox wrote:
Ill ask you this... isn't it a good feeling when you do something nice for someone...?

I agree.

At OP:

You know, classifying those who help other people as "selfish" because they believe it will benefit them at some point is downright shitty.

How is taking time out their life to help others possibly selfish? Because of some perceived reward that they won't even experience in this lifetime?

I guess I am selfish also-- because I help people when they are in a situation where I would want help too. Dammit, when will I think of anyone but myself!

2007-12-03 01:11:09

#15

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

@ Moo: Christianity is an example, but also, radical Muslims blow themselves up in hopes of getting into Heaven.

@ SenorToenails: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, nor do I think the majority of religious people are selfish people. This is just a theory or an observation that I am entertaining.

And yes I do get a good feeling when I help people out, and I help people out even when I'm not obliged. Many people do, regardless of their beliefs.

Last edited by mtb0minime (2007-12-03 01:11:51)

2007-12-03 01:15:49

#16

r2zoo: Knowledge is power, guard it well; +126|7034|Michigan, USA

mtb0minime wrote:
But what about when they go on missions? Go traveling in hopes of converting other people to their religion. Surely it's on their mind then? "Oh boy if I can convert these locals I'll make God happy and get into Heaven!"

Not so much to get in their gods good graces as it is sharing the faith. They've learned something important to them in their lives, and feel they should help others to experience the same thing. I relate it to concerts and stuff whose goals are to raise awareness, although not exactly the same, its similar.

2007-12-03 01:20:18

#17

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6728|Éire

I would imagine every person is different. Someone who has done a lot of soul searching in life and has settled on a particular religion may well be acting out of true altruism whereas someone who has been spoon-fed (or force-fed) religion would definitely be at risk of acting purely out of fear of damnation or a selfish desire for an afterlife in paradise. But I guess every person is different. I'm not religious but when I do something nice for someone else it makes me feel good. That in itself is kind of selfish I suppose.

2007-12-03 01:22:00

#18

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6568|North Tonawanda, NY

mtb0minime wrote:
@ SenorToenails: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, nor do I think the majority of religious people are selfish people. This is just a theory or an observation that I am entertaining.

And yes I do get a good feeling when I help people out, and I help people out even when I'm not obliged. Many people do, regardless of their beliefs.

So then why would only the religious people be acting selfishly?

2007-12-03 02:04:00

#19

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,992|7070|949

It is not just religious people acting selfishly. It is hard for most if not all people to consciously give time or money to a cause without a little self-serving retribution. People donate time and/or money because it makes them feel good. Is that being selfish? Surely it can be perceived as such, even if most of your intention was to help out someone less fortunate.

Clearly there are extremes for religious selfishness, just as there are extremes for religious unselfishness. The problem with your question is that it is not necessarily a person's religion or lack thereof that inherently instigates the selfishness or unselfishness.

2007-12-03 02:07:55

#20

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

My point of this post was to ponder the theory that heavily religious people could be acting selfishly to get into Heaven or to avoid Hell. However, helping others and doing good deeds because it makes you feel good isn't selfish, and this is the main reason people do stuff. When you help someone, it's not like "oh I'm going to help this old woman cross the street because at the end of it I'll feel good".

And to add to my theory, I said that religious people could be more selfish than non-religious people because for those who don't believe in Heaven and Hell, why would they perform good deeds if they wouldn't be going to any of those places?

We're all selfish at one point or another in our lives, and there's nothing we can do about it, we're only human. I'm not trying to put any group down here, just entertaining a theory (as I've said so many times before).

(I intended this to be more along the lines of "serious talk" and less along "debate")

2007-12-03 02:18:38

#21

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,992|7070|949

Well I am not religious and while I do not do near as much as I could to help my fellow man I can assure you I donate my time, energy and money to a few causes I consider worthwhile. The lack of a belief in afterlife really does not affect the decision - I do what I do because of my own personal belief as a humanist. If I am in a position to help my fellow brothers that are at a low point in their life for whatever reason, you are damn right I will help them. I consider my fellow humans as part of a society as a whole, not each particular person as a distinct being within that society. If I can help a few people, maybe society will progress that much more.

I'm sure there are people out there with some sort of twisted ideas of sacrifice for admittance to heaven, but I would like to think that would be the exception as opposed to the majority.

2007-12-03 02:20:28

#22

mtb0minime: minimember; +2,418|7092

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well I am not religious and while I do not do near as much as I could to help my fellow man I can assure you I donate my time, energy and money to a few causes I consider worthwhile. The lack of a belief in afterlife really does not affect the decision - I do what I do because of my own personal belief as a humanist. If I am in a position to help my fellow brothers that are at a low point in their life for whatever reason, you are damn right I will help them. I consider my fellow humans as part of a society as a whole, not each particular person as a distinct being within that society. If I can help a few people, maybe society will progress that much more.

I'm sure there are people out there with some sort of twisted ideas of sacrifice for admittance to heaven, but I would like to think that would be the exception as opposed to the majority.

Exactly. My post was mainly considering the extremes. I guess I should've said "Are Religiously Radical People..."

I help out whenever I can and never hesitate, nor do I consider what's in it for me.

2007-12-03 03:30:35

#23

UK|Hooligan: Seriously, fuck off.; +103|7126|"The Empire"

mtb0minime wrote:
I guess I should've said "Are Religiously Radical People..."

To put it simply, yes they are because what they do is always "right" and what "god" would of wanted them to do, which is to do fuck all to help anyone else but some with the same beliefs!!

2007-12-03 07:05:24

#24

RAIMIUS: You with the face!; +244|7152|US

There are some cases where the OP's point is true, but there are also many cases where it is not. Not all religions say that a person gains access to heaven (or wherever) by doing good deeds. Christianity is the largest of these religions. It was Jesus who talked about the gift of salvation and "not by works alone." The Bible does talk about rewards for charity and good deeds, but that is not its focus.

2007-12-03 07:20:51

#25

GunSlinger OIF II: Banned.; +1,860|7082

People are selfish, its human nature.

BF2S Forums Are Religious People the Most Selfish of All?

Havok wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

Havok wrote:

Havok wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

Havok wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

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