FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6849|'Murka

I don't believe this has been posted before in this thread, but...

The place under discussion here, the District of Columbia, which currently has a ban in place has the highest number of gun deaths, per capita, of anywhere in the US--including states that allow open and/or concealed carry.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu … er-100-000

Granted, this is from 2002, but DC historically has had the highest amount of gun-related crime in the US. And they are the only place with a ban.

Last edited by FEOS (2007-12-05 02:58:21)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
colgas101
Dead man talking
+4|6437|Mackay qld australia
I'm from oz where we have gun control laws all they have done is remove some weapons from the mostly honest people who wouldn't have done anything illeagal anyway.the crims kept theirs, less than 1/4 of automatic weapons known to have been brought in to the country have ever been handed in.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7279|Cologne, Germany

FEOS wrote:

I don't believe this has been posted before in this thread, but...

The place under discussion here, the District of Columbia, which currently has a ban in place has the highest number of gun deaths, per capita, of anywhere in the US--including states that allow open and/or concealed carry.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu … er-100-000

Granted, this is from 2002, but DC historically has had the highest amount of gun-related crime in the US. And they are the only place with a ban.
well, if that is true, and yet there are countries where a smaller number of guns in circulation has resulted in less gun crime, then there is only one reasonable explanation: americans are inherently more violent than other people of western nations.

want a statistic with that ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen … comparison

Also, and that is the major flaw of gun control legislation in Washington, it is merely useless, since firearms can be bought legally outside of the city limits, in neighbouring Virginia or Maryland, a short drive away.
I would therefore agree that there is no use in creating a law that you cannot enforce. This does, however, not mean that effective gun control is impossible, or that a drastical reduction of firearms in circulation would not help in reducing gun related crime.
The keyword here being "effective".
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7279|Cologne, Germany

well, if it's a cultural thing, which it seems to be, then any argument, no matter how well presented and thought out, is doomed to fail ultimately.
I mean, there are tons of incidents that could spark effective gun control legislation ( the virginia tech shooting, for example ), but it seems "gun culture" is too deeply embedded in US history.

Guess I am done then. I have used up all my words.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7152|US

B.Schuss wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

...The first bolded point is where philosophies differ.  The US was founded on the idea (imperfect that it is) that the people are more trustworthy than the government.  People should be left to make their own decisions rather than have some authority always tell them what to do.  (I agree with this sentiment.)
while I can see your argument, wouldn't you agree that history has proven that people can not be trusted ? Look at the high numbers of gun crime in the US, the shootings at high schools and universities. what makes you think allowing everyone to own a gun will make that situation better ?
I mean, you do restrict access to certain drugs that pose a threat, don't you ? Such as Cocaine or heroine ? What's the difference here ? People can be trusted with guns, but not with drugs ?
We put laws in place because we know that people can not be trusted to use common sense, curtesy, and be respectful of their fellow citizens. Because if they did, we would not need these laws. Humans are not trustworthy. We act on feelings, give in to emotions, and lack rational capacity. That's why, in certain cases, we need to be protected from ourselves. And I happen to believe that this includes guns.


RAIMIUS wrote:

..The US could enforce strict anti-gun laws, but it would curtail a LOT of personal liberties and STILL not address the causes of crime.  Your ideas could work, but I don't think the benefit would outweigh the loss.  (Americans put a lot of value on personal liberties and checks on government power...both of which would be sacrificed under this type of plan to marginally reduce crime.)
well, I know I am totally out of line here, but the same could be said about the patriot act. I guess Americans are a bit selective as far as their personal liberties go, huh ?

gun control no, patriot act yes. It seems you can have it both ways.

no offense intended. /hugs RAIMIUS
Yeah, the whole "trust the people" bit can backfire pretty badly...  I don't like the authoritarian approach either.  I guess it comes down to which method you think is the lesser of two evils.  Would you prefer that people be idiots and ruin things, or that the government do it for them?...not exactly a win-win situation.

I HATE the Patriot Act!  It is slowly being ruled unconstitutional, but it certainly trampled a lot of people's rights.  It was probably the worst "knee-jerk" law in the past 50 years.  (I still like the politician who did not vote for it, explaining that he actually read the legislation!)

I agree that there are more prevalent cultures of violence and guns in America...not quite as extreme as Afghanistan though, lol.

There are good reasons to be on both sides of the debate, but I choose my side.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7279|Cologne, Germany

that's fine. I never expected to change anyone's mind anyway. Not on gun control.

but I enjoy the discussion.
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6435

B.Schuss wrote:

is that not an argument based on religious beliefs ? Are you in fact saying that the right to bear arms was basically given to the american people by god ? I'm sorry, but how can you question my logic under these circumstances ?
This (once again misplaced) rebuttal has already been addressed, so I shan't take it on again.

well, it's not really as easy as that, since the Bill of Rights was phrased quite carefully ( as you will remember, there was extensive discussion among the states during ratification ), but I am glad you get the point. Of course, it's not free-for-all, but there is some room for interpretation. Why I am saying that ?
Because it has already been established that the government can restrict gun purchase and ownership. The USSC did so in US vs Miller, 1939.
Or are you denying that numerous laws restricting gun ownership are already in place ? How could that be, if they were all unconstitutional ?
Forgive me, but I want to be sure I'm clear on the point you're trying to make.  Are you claiming that no law, if it's common enough, can possibly be unconstitutional?  If so, I'll simply mention the state of affairs in 1950's-era American South and leave it at that.

I'll disregard the tone and the obvious attempt to put my and my opinion down. Talk about condescending..
I didn't try to put you down.  As to your opinion, I give people's opinions the due regard they deserve.  And I just don't believe much regard is due an opinion of the Constitution which puts forth the notion that it is malleable and meaningless.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6929|Northern California

DesertFox- wrote:

My idea of gun control differs greatly from what the term has been described as. My idea of the government having gun control and not gun absence would be that people are required to be more responsible with their firearms. Trigger guards, seperately stored ammo, registering your weapon...things a responsible person would do. Right now, we're somewhere in between the Wild West and my idealistic vision. I do get angered though when someone makes a statement like "guns are dangerous" or "guns kill people" because it's applying the label that they are inherently bad, while if you had a "guns save lives" slogan, that wouldn't be appropriate either. There needs to be a middle ground.

I've been around firearms for a great deal of my life. The people who owned them were responsible adults who kept them unloaded in safes and whatnot, and through exposure those behaviors have been passed on to me. I don't see what the big deal is these days. Firearms and their projectiles in general haven't become any less lethal since they've been invented yet I hear stories my dad and granddad say about kids taking a .22 down to the dump and shooting rats, or loading a .357 Magnum with 1 magnum round and 5 .38 specials then shooting at cans on a fence while at a farm. It's different though today. People are too afraid of weapons and they're not going to want to get exposed to them in order to find they have some irrational fears. If someone is walking down the street carrying a rifle (but not aiming it at people hopefully) I wouldn't feel I'm in any danger but some people would probably duck for cover at that point.

Meh, it's a hobby of mine and something I know about than the average person. I just wish more people would give it a chance. Hell, in my proper "gun control" society, everybody would know how to safely operate a firearm through education about them. I'd like to see how many people could properly load/unload a semi-automatic pistol you gave them today. Since this country has become less and less rural, people are less exposed to hunting and the like with shotguns and rifles, yet they're more accustomed to the drive-by with submachine guns and pistols.

Okay, I'm done rambling on...
Some excellent points.  While I agree that there should be mandatory training, a sort of legal background check (to make sure you've not forfeited some rights through criminal activity or a check on your mental stability), and safe handling and storage demonstration, there should NOT be registration.  There is no reason for it, it's not legal or constitutional, and it only serves one purpose...to provide a record of owners from which to confiscate illegally.

Seriously, we don't have the right to drive, but we are required some basic training before becoming licensed, and there's renewal tests to continue driving.  Why not require some training for gun ownership, with a type of renewal of said training.  A 2 hour lecture and lab for prospective buyers (CA requires handgun buyers to have a "Handgun Safety Certificate" administered by the DOJ which teaches about the 6 rules of safety, explains handguns and their parts and safe handling and storage, and there's other CA DOJ law information in there like how to legally transfer, transport, and use, etc), and a refresher test.  Infringing the right to BUY a gun with a simple safety test like this would IMHO be ok, but not infringing their right to OWN and CARRY the weapon.  And like this example, there should be some government intervention that mildly infringes gun acquisition...like an oath of responsibility, perhaps increased penalties for crimes and even accidents committed with your guns...like shooting your old blackberry phone.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7279|Cologne, Germany

HollisHurlbut wrote:

Forgive me, but I want to be sure I'm clear on the point you're trying to make.  Are you claiming that no law, if it's common enough, can possibly be unconstitutional?  If so, I'll simply mention the state of affairs in 1950's-era American South and leave it at that.
No idea what happened in the american south in the 1950's.

what I was saying was that there is no use in arguing wether the 2nd amendment allows any form of gun control or not, because it has been established for decades that it does. Thus, gun control is obviously possible in spite of the 2nd amendment. Laws are in place. Ineffective, obviously, but in place.
Therefore, the discussion should no longer revolve around the question if the 2nd amendment allows for any kind of gun control legislation, but only to which extent it does.

apart from that,

me wrote:

well, if it's a cultural thing, which it seems to be, then any argument, no matter how well presented and thought out, is doomed to fail ultimately.
I mean, there are tons of incidents that could spark effective gun control legislation ( the virginia tech shooting, for example ), but it seems "gun culture" is too deeply embedded in US history.

Guess I am done then. I have used up all my words.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6883|The Land of Scott Walker

Dilbert_X wrote:

Re Registration.

The problem is a person can go through all the hoops you suggest and acquire a firearm, only to immediately sell it on privately to anyone else.
Registration at least means if a crime is committed the owner can be traced, unless its been reported stolen.
It also provides incentive for safe storage. In most countries if you have your firearms stolen and did not take reasonable precautions you lose your license, if you don't report them stolen you're in trouble if they get misused.

If there is a workable alternative please put it forward.
Notice that the registration doesn't prevent the crime, but only allows the weapon's owner to be tracked.  In the end registration does absolutely nothing to prevent a crime. 

A US citizen should have the ability to sell a firearm I purchased if they wish to do so.  It is their property and the government has no right to tell them what do do with it.  Anyone selling a firearm to a criminal is still penalized and/or charge criminally without a registration system.  I'd like to know who out there wouldn't report their firearm stolen.  They aren't cheap.  From my perspective, penalizing the owner of a weapon that is stolen and used in a crime is just as ridiculous as penalizing the owner of a stolen car because the thief smashed into other vehicles fleeing from the police.  The focus of registration is entirely wrong.  Gun laws should focus on the actions of the criminal instead of limiting the law-abiding citizen.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-12-07 13:10:37)

=AM=Limey
Member
+2|7023
Gun Control means use 2 hands to hold it!

If the second amendment gives states the right to arm militia then surely the first amendment gives only states the right to print newspapers. Wrong!

All rights in the constitution are individual rights, the recipient of the right (state vs individual) does not change from one to the next.

The second amendment does not guarantee a hunter the right to own his rifle.
It gives all people the right to defend themselves. Defend against individuals (thief / assailant) or groups (armies / governments)
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7152|US
The Constitution certainly gives rights to the state and federal government, but the idea was to place enforcable limits on government power and guarantee the people a multitude of rights.

Certain rights are inherent to humans, we choose to give some rights to the government in order to further the common good.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6929|Northern California

=AM=Limey wrote:

The second amendment does not guarantee a hunter the right to own his rifle.
Wrong.  2A does not specify any "usage" language for the individual.  It plainly says the individual can actually own and carry (or keep and bear)...WHICH IS fundamental to a state's security.

You do have the right to buy a million guns and do nothing with them, hunt with them, assault others (and lose your right) with them, use them in defense of person and property, and use them to suppress your government via a state organized body or militia.
=AM=Limey
Member
+2|7023
The second amendment does NOT guarantee a hunter the right to own his rifle.

It guarantees much more
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6929|Northern California
......
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,992|7070|949

Is a ballistic missile considered 'arms'?  If so, shouldn't the 2nd Amendment protect my ability to purchase or develop one?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6883|The Land of Scott Walker
There are already federal permit systems for sales and purchase of arms outside the "normal" scope of rifles, shotgun, and pistols.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6929|Northern California
I don't think it's infringement if a manufacturer declines to sell their items to certain groups..ie., civilians in the case of missiles, rocket propelled grenades, or other more volatile items.  And frankly, I wouldn't consider it bad for the government to limit arms to hand held small arms...or since the purpose of arming the citizen of the states is to match warfare standards, whatever our military has, civilians should have (small arms that is).

But hey, nothing would be cooler than commuting to work in an Abrams towing some scuds full of jello!

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-07 17:03:22)

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