Holy crap... well then. I guess, aside from the definitions issue, do you think that maybe crime gets reported more often over there than it does here? There's no way to verify this, but I'm guessing a lot of crime here doesn't get reported -- especially in the ghettoes, where there is an entire culture of "don't snitch."Bertster7 wrote:
I don't think that is the case.Turquoise wrote:
Good points... Here's something I'd like to know. How much higher or lower is the overall violent crime rate in the U.K. as compared to the U.S.? I'd be willing to bet that, even with the chavs you have other there, your violent crime (even not including gun-related ones here) is much lower than the rates here. I'm not sure if you could find statistics that remove gun-related crimes from the equation.Bertster7 wrote:
I agree, to a point.
But I don't think it's anything to do with having a less violent culture. In many respects I would argue that the UK has a more violent culture in general than the US. It's about US gun culture, take the guns out of the equation and culture should shift to follow, although gun culture is so ingrained in American culture in general that removing guns almost altogether would be far more difficult than in most other western countries.
In the UK a lot of violent crime occurs, typically involving knives or brutal beatings with bottles/blunt objects/chainsaw chains..... etc.
The UK is far from a peaceful utopia, but at least gun crime is one thing that is not a serious issue here.
It's difficult to find properly representative figures, but 2.4 million violent crimes a year in the UK (recently - of which about 5000 a year involve real firearms) compared to about 1.5 million violent crimes a year recently in the US seem to show a much higher rate of violent crime in the UK. The definitions of violent crime in the UK and US do differ though and trawling through the statistics to get a bit more accuracy would take more time than I'm prepared to spend on it. But based on those very rough preliminary figures, I'd say the UK is at least as violent, if not more violent, a place as the US - but people don't die so often as result because we don't have guns over here.
Poll
Should the police carry firearms?
| They should carry firearms | 73% | 73% - 118 | ||||
| It depends on the district | 12% | 12% - 20 | ||||
| They should carry a baton or a taser, but no firearms | 12% | 12% - 20 | ||||
| Other | 1% | 1% - 3 | ||||
| Total: 161 | ||||||
I wouldn't place all of the blame on the culture but certainly some of it is there. It's still in the old days of ownership where need to make the LEVEL UP! jump to an era of responsible gun ownership. A lot, actually all, of the people I know who have guns keep them locked up in a safe, store ammo seperately, all the things a responsible gun owner should do. Sadly, all of the nation isn't like that. You still have the people who think keeping a loaded pistol in the drawer will keep it out of unwanted hands. A lot of these crimes committed by people with psychotic histories who go on rampages shouldn't happen because those people shouldn't be able to buy a firearm. Correct me if I'm wrong, too, but I believe that recent mall shooting was performed with a stolen weapon as well. It's irresponsible to think that it is necessary to keep a gun loaded and easily accessible, even though that may be the defense of some who say it's for home defense.
The society we live in has made the leap to the 21st century, but the gun ownership needs to get with the times as well. Technology as simple as a box with a lock on it (lulz Al Gore lock box) can prevent major crime sprees from happening.
The society we live in has made the leap to the 21st century, but the gun ownership needs to get with the times as well. Technology as simple as a box with a lock on it (lulz Al Gore lock box) can prevent major crime sprees from happening.
I'm not sure about the US system, but I know that slightly over half of the violent crime in Britain involves no actualy harm to the victim. For example if I pushed you and you reported it to the police that counts as a violent crime in the UK despite it being not particularly violent.Turquoise wrote:
Holy crap... well then. I guess, aside from the definitions issue, do you think that maybe crime gets reported more often over there than it does here? There's no way to verify this, but I'm guessing a lot of crime here doesn't get reported -- especially in the ghettoes, where there is an entire culture of "don't snitch."Bertster7 wrote:
I don't think that is the case.Turquoise wrote:
Good points... Here's something I'd like to know. How much higher or lower is the overall violent crime rate in the U.K. as compared to the U.S.? I'd be willing to bet that, even with the chavs you have other there, your violent crime (even not including gun-related ones here) is much lower than the rates here. I'm not sure if you could find statistics that remove gun-related crimes from the equation.
It's difficult to find properly representative figures, but 2.4 million violent crimes a year in the UK (recently - of which about 5000 a year involve real firearms) compared to about 1.5 million violent crimes a year recently in the US seem to show a much higher rate of violent crime in the UK. The definitions of violent crime in the UK and US do differ though and trawling through the statistics to get a bit more accuracy would take more time than I'm prepared to spend on it. But based on those very rough preliminary figures, I'd say the UK is at least as violent, if not more violent, a place as the US - but people don't die so often as result because we don't have guns over here.
Figures... I just find it hard to believe that the U.K. would be more violent than America. We have more reasons for violence here.
Which still leaves UK violent crime figures way higher per capita than in the US.PureFodder wrote:
I'm not sure about the US system, but I know that slightly over half of the violent crime in Britain involves no actual harm to the victim. For example if I pushed you and you reported it to the police that counts as a violent crime in the UK despite it being not particularly violent.Turquoise wrote:
Holy crap... well then. I guess, aside from the definitions issue, do you think that maybe crime gets reported more often over there than it does here? There's no way to verify this, but I'm guessing a lot of crime here doesn't get reported -- especially in the ghettoes, where there is an entire culture of "don't snitch."Bertster7 wrote:
I don't think that is the case.
It's difficult to find properly representative figures, but 2.4 million violent crimes a year in the UK (recently - of which about 5000 a year involve real firearms) compared to about 1.5 million violent crimes a year recently in the US seem to show a much higher rate of violent crime in the UK. The definitions of violent crime in the UK and US do differ though and trawling through the statistics to get a bit more accuracy would take more time than I'm prepared to spend on it. But based on those very rough preliminary figures, I'd say the UK is at least as violent, if not more violent, a place as the US - but people don't die so often as result because we don't have guns over here.
You are far more likely to get mugged in London than in New York, for example. Violence in the UK is more about getting into fights, pub culture, football related violence (although there seems to be quite a lot less of that these days) and all that sort of thing.
Most Rifles arent legal in the UK... The best rifle you can buy is a .22Turquoise wrote:
You really have a flair for condescension. Where have I disagreed with you that you have less gun crime than us?Vilham wrote:
Sorry Turquoise but I thought you were brighter than that. All those crimes you listed involved fake replica guns/bb guns/air guns/real guns. We have about 50-60 gun related deaths a year. Our population is 60 million... I would say thats none existent. In comparison to our total crime those gun related crimes account for something like 5% of our country's crime. Yet again, I would say thats pretty damn low/none existent considering most of those arent real guns being used in crime.
I'll say it again. Culture is more to blame than weapons. If weapons were the main problem, you'd have a lot more rifle shootings, since it's easier to get a hunting rifle in the U.K. than a handgun.
My point wasnt to say you did claim anything. My point was that your reference was a poor one and I know you normally find great sources.
Last edited by Vilham (2007-12-08 09:57:42)
Which is a rifle and is legal.Vilham wrote:
Rifles arent legal in the UK... The best rifle you can buy is a .22Turquoise wrote:
You really have a flair for condescension. Where have I disagreed with you that you have less gun crime than us?Vilham wrote:
Sorry Turquoise but I thought you were brighter than that. All those crimes you listed involved fake replica guns/bb guns/air guns/real guns. We have about 50-60 gun related deaths a year. Our population is 60 million... I would say thats none existent. In comparison to our total crime those gun related crimes account for something like 5% of our country's crime. Yet again, I would say thats pretty damn low/none existent considering most of those arent real guns being used in crime.
I'll say it again. Culture is more to blame than weapons. If weapons were the main problem, you'd have a lot more rifle shootings, since it's easier to get a hunting rifle in the U.K. than a handgun.
You're contradicting yourself there. That's like saying cars aren't legal in the UK, the best car you can get is a car with a 1.6l engine (not true, obviously, just illustrating a point).
Lol I know I was contradicting myself a tad. But a .22 is hardly a real rifle, a air rifle is nearly as powerful..
and ive changed it now.
and ive changed it now.
Last edited by Vilham (2007-12-08 10:00:30)
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?Strngs012 wrote:
Ok Genius your the cop, you have no weapon. You come across an armed drug dealer and he has his .357 mag pointed at your face. What are you gonna do? I'll tell you what your gonna do, Your gonna think to yourself what asshole said I'm not allowed to carry a weapon because society will not benifit from both sides having a gun. Boom your dead. Too bad the armed response units couldn't get there in time to save your sorry ass.PureFodder wrote:
The average cop on the street shouldn't have a gun, but there should be armed response units for those occasions when armed criminals are found.
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
If the police are going to attempt an arrest or raid on one of these gun-toting gangs, they use SO-19 or other highly trained armed units to do this. They don't just run in, guns a-blazing. That's how people get killed.
That's about where I stopped taking this seriously.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
Only because I don't live in New York...Bertster7 wrote:
You are far more likely to get mugged in London than in New York, for example.
Ok, so over-exaggeration on my part, but the point is still valid and therefore stands.DesertFox- wrote:
That's about where I stopped taking this seriously.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
I am talking not specifically about America but the whole world. In the US it would take to amend the 2nd amendment first, before you can have police without firearms.Turquoise wrote:
This would be ridiculous in America. We're crawling with guns. There's no way we could have effective law enforcement here without them.sergeriver wrote:
The police faces stress situations everyday, and after all they are humans, and shit happens. In the UK regular policemen don't carry firearms, except for North Ireland I think. What do you think? Should the rest of the world copy this or leaving a policeman without a firearm is dangerous for him? Would you feel safer having a police without firearms?
Guns aren't banned in the UK. I have a rifle license of some sort, and my uncle (living in NI) has licenses for a rifle, and two shotguns.ddenholm67 wrote:
Guns are banned in the UK, so it is extremely rare a civilian pulls a gun on a policeman. It`s not pathetic because the Government is not going to waste money on giving guns and training to police officers if gun crime is rare in the UK.Dragonclaw wrote:
Youre kidding right? They dont carry firearms? Thats pathetic. If someone pulls a gun on them theyre helpless. If they see someone shooting they cant do shit about it. What kind of shit government doesnt let the cops carry guns?
It's just harder to get them, and more expensive, than it is in the US
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
One thing somewhat related to this issue is that what do current firearms laws say in other countries that have banned them? Do they disallow ownership, use, sale, or what? I was thinking about if a law like that were passed, whether it would or would not be considered ex post facto for those who already own them, even though you couldn't use them anymore.
No idea. I'm not sure what the legal standpoint on firearms ownership is in the UK, other than it's possible to have them.DesertFox- wrote:
One thing somewhat related to this issue is that what do current firearms laws say in other countries that have banned them? Do they disallow ownership, use, sale, or what? I was thinking about if a law like that were passed, whether it would or would not be considered ex post facto for those who already own them, even though you couldn't use them anymore.
However, i think we're limited to either rifles (for competition shooting),or shotguns (for farmers etc). And security on guns is huge. My uncle (the one living in Northen Ireland) has a officer come round every 3 months checking the security and condition of his firearms, and other stuff. Though, that could be because of his location.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Sorry Mr high and mighty, I don't live in the the perfect Utopia that is known as the UK, so I'm sorry for acting retarded. Next time I post something I'll be sure and visit your perfect society before attempting to speak my mind. Now fuck off.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?Strngs012 wrote:
Ok Genius your the cop, you have no weapon. You come across an armed drug dealer and he has his .357 mag pointed at your face. What are you gonna do? I'll tell you what your gonna do, Your gonna think to yourself what asshole said I'm not allowed to carry a weapon because society will not benifit from both sides having a gun. Boom your dead. Too bad the armed response units couldn't get there in time to save your sorry ass.PureFodder wrote:
The average cop on the street shouldn't have a gun, but there should be armed response units for those occasions when armed criminals are found.
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
If the police are going to attempt an arrest or raid on one of these gun-toting gangs, they use SO-19 or other highly trained armed units to do this. They don't just run in, guns a-blazing. That's how people get killed.
Can i point out, in the UK, SO19 take care of any firearms incident. And they are fucking amazing.
And if it's really serious, we call the SAS, who are arguably the best elite force in the world.
And if it's really serious, we call the SAS, who are arguably the best elite force in the world.
Last edited by FatherTed (2007-12-08 10:50:12)
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
And you're a tool. If you can't see where I coming from it's your problem.The_Mac wrote:
Yeah, and then they get shot by thugs. Brilliant idea, you're a master!sergeriver wrote:
The police faces stress situations everyday, and after all they are humans, and shit happens. In the UK regular policemen don't carry firearms
Strngs012 wrote:
Sorry Mr high and mighty, I don't live in the the perfect Utopia that is known as the UK, so I'm sorry for acting retarded. Next time I post something I'll be sure and visit your perfect society before attempting to speak my mind. Now fuck off.
I rest my case.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?
In the UK they disallow ownership and sale. The ban is on all handguns and rifles of greater calibre than .22, shotguns are fine. To buy or own a gun you need a license. To get a license you need to go through quite a rigorous application process and have a home inspection (to check you have a properly secured gun cabinet and separate secure ammo storage) and interview by your local firearms officer.DesertFox- wrote:
One thing somewhat related to this issue is that what do current firearms laws say in other countries that have banned them? Do they disallow ownership, use, sale, or what? I was thinking about if a law like that were passed, whether it would or would not be considered ex post facto for those who already own them, even though you couldn't use them anymore.
All banned guns needed to be handed in when the ban came into effect.
When you visit, look out for foot and mouth disease.Strngs012 wrote:
Sorry Mr high and mighty, I don't live in the the perfect Utopia that is known as the UK, so I'm sorry for acting retarded. Next time I post something I'll be sure and visit your perfect society before attempting to speak my mind. Now fuck off.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?Strngs012 wrote:
Ok Genius your the cop, you have no weapon. You come across an armed drug dealer and he has his .357 mag pointed at your face. What are you gonna do? I'll tell you what your gonna do, Your gonna think to yourself what asshole said I'm not allowed to carry a weapon because society will not benifit from both sides having a gun. Boom your dead. Too bad the armed response units couldn't get there in time to save your sorry ass.
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
If the police are going to attempt an arrest or raid on one of these gun-toting gangs, they use SO-19 or other highly trained armed units to do this. They don't just run in, guns a-blazing. That's how people get killed.
Now, buckles you are a Micheal Moore believer or something? You must be to make statements like that. Most people I know do not own guns. I would say 2 in 10 do. And one of those two is a cop.
I think they should definitely carry firearms - policemen tend to get into dangerous situations a lot more than anyone else.
-konfusion
-konfusion
But how many firearms are there in the US?usmarine2005 wrote:
When you visit, look out for foot and mouth disease.Strngs012 wrote:
Sorry Mr high and mighty, I don't live in the the perfect Utopia that is known as the UK, so I'm sorry for acting retarded. Next time I post something I'll be sure and visit your perfect society before attempting to speak my mind. Now fuck off.Buckles wrote:
Are you retarded? Or you just haven't hit puberty yet?
You don't get guns on the streets in the UK. You don't get dealers wandering around pulling guns on people. It's a big deal here. In the USA, everyone and their mother's dog has a gun, so they're common and shooting incidents happen a lot. In the UK, shooting incidents are rare and usually big news. You get gang shootings, which are sure enough dangerous, but mainly only to the idiotic gang-members involved. There's a chance that an innocent bystander will be injured or killed, but even that's pretty rare, you don't hear of many incidents with civilians getting caught in crossfire here.
If the police are going to attempt an arrest or raid on one of these gun-toting gangs, they use SO-19 or other highly trained armed units to do this. They don't just run in, guns a-blazing. That's how people get killed.
Now, buckles you are a Micheal Moore believer or something? You must be to make statements like that. Most people I know do not own guns. I would say 2 in 10 do. And one of those two is a cop.
Gun ownership in US
There are approximately 44 million gun owners in the United States.6 This means that 25 percent of all adults, and 40 percent of American households, own at least one firearm. These owners possess 192 million firearms, of which 65 million are handguns. Among legal gun owners, the reasons given for owning or carrying a weapon include hunting, sports-related activities, and home protection. Among those who own handguns, 75 percent reported in a national survey that self-protection is the primary reason for owning a firearm.7
Approximately 37,500 gun sales, including 17,800 handgun sales, are completed every day in the United States. The increasing number of gun owners has elevated the danger of guns being acquired illegally through robberies and burglaries. In 1994, more than a quarter-million households experienced the theft of one or more firearms; nearly 600,000 guns were stolen during these burglaries.8
The number of youth who report that they carry weapons is significant. In 1997, 14 percent, or 1 in 7 male juveniles, reported carrying a gun outside the home in the previous 30-day period.9 In the inner city, the problem is more severe. One study involving 800 inner-city high school students reported that 22 percent said they carried weapons.10 An even greater number of convicted juvenile offenders reported carrying guns -- 88 percent, according to another study.11
Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Absolutely not. Guns are there to be there. If someone draws a gun, you will fucking comply.
A cop without a gun is about as effective as a mall security guard.
A cop without a gun is about as effective as a mall security guard.