Poll

What do you believe?

9/11 was engineered / allowed to happen9%9% - 19
The moon landing was faked1%1% - 3
There was a second gunman at the JFK assassination7%7% - 15
FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen4%4% - 8
The US 2000/2004 presidential election was rigged12%12% - 25
Aliens have visited Earth13%13% - 27
In two or three of the above options16%16% - 32
At least four or more of the above options6%6% - 12
None of the above26%26% - 52
Total: 193
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6727|Éire

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Pearl Harbor - incompetency, not conspiracy.
How so?

In any case, that is the only one with the potential to be a real conspiracy (although Florida 2000 did seem a bit iffy).

The Pearl harbour incident seemed to have happened in such a convenient manner for FDR that it is extremely difficult to rule out the possibility that it was allowed to happen.
Yes, America caught by a surprise attack ...2 YEARS into a world war! That's strikes me as having one's guard down a little.

I personally wouldn't rule out the moon landing conspiracy: technology was still pretty basic back then and the pressure was on to impress against the soviets. Keeping the whole thing quiet for so long would be pretty damn impossible though.

The 9/11 stuff is always intriguing but I just don't think anyone would dare collude in such a thing, I think it was just a case of having their eye well off the ball.

I think it's too hard to rig an entire US election, the State of Florida 2 elections ago was definitely questionable though.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6992

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Pearl Harbor - incompetency, not conspiracy.
How so?

In any case, that is the only one with the potential to be a real conspiracy (although Florida 2000 did seem a bit iffy).

The Pearl harbour incident seemed to have happened in such a convenient manner for FDR that it is extremely difficult to rule out the possibility that it was allowed to happen.
It was not in America's interests to engage in a war when war had not been declared upon it. It could sit idly by and get fat off the misery of others, which was the FDR isolationist line until Hirohito put a spanner in the works.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7018|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Pearl Harbor - incompetency, not conspiracy.
How so?

In any case, that is the only one with the potential to be a real conspiracy (although Florida 2000 did seem a bit iffy).

The Pearl harbour incident seemed to have happened in such a convenient manner for FDR that it is extremely difficult to rule out the possibility that it was allowed to happen.
It was not in America's interests to engage in a war when war had not been declared upon it. It could sit idly by and get fat off the misery of others, which was the FDR isolationist line until Hirohito put a spanner in the works.
No it wasn't. Public opinion was set against the war, but the government were keen to get involved as they realised an Axis victory would not be in the best interests of the US. Pearl Harbour was a great way of swaying public opinion. The US had also deciphered all the Japanese radio codes and none of the more modern expensive ships were in harbour on the day of the bombing (though they were scheduled to be).
wingman_lajoda
Member
+17|7204|Gainesville, FL
The Earth is Flat...  LOL

http://theflatearthsociety.org/

From the FAQ   http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in … ic=11211.0


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6992

Bertster7 wrote:

No it wasn't. Public opinion was set against the war, but the government were keen to get involved as they realised an Axis victory would not be in the best interests of the US. Pearl Harbour was a great way of swaying public opinion. The US had also deciphered all the Japanese radio codes and none of the more modern expensive ships were in harbour on the day of the bombing (though they were scheduled to be).
I don't think the US military command would sacrifice a shitload of their boats and men to be given an 'opportunity' to engage in war. They only engaged in war with Germany because Germany declared war on them: AFTER Pearl Harbour.

Elements of the US were quite happy to work with the Nazis...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 … 40,00.html
imortal
Member
+240|7101|Austin, TX

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


How so?

In any case, that is the only one with the potential to be a real conspiracy (although Florida 2000 did seem a bit iffy).

The Pearl harbour incident seemed to have happened in such a convenient manner for FDR that it is extremely difficult to rule out the possibility that it was allowed to happen.
It was not in America's interests to engage in a war when war had not been declared upon it. It could sit idly by and get fat off the misery of others, which was the FDR isolationist line until Hirohito put a spanner in the works.
No it wasn't. Public opinion was set against the war, but the government were keen to get involved as they realised an Axis victory would not be in the best interests of the US. Pearl Harbour was a great way of swaying public opinion. The US had also deciphered all the Japanese radio codes and none of the more modern expensive ships were in harbour on the day of the bombing (though they were scheduled to be).
Yes, but the codes had not been broken until later, just before Midway.  And the true problem with Pearl Harbor was that the timing fell apart with the Japanese declaration of war.  That the US was attacked before we knew we were at war.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7018|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

No it wasn't. Public opinion was set against the war, but the government were keen to get involved as they realised an Axis victory would not be in the best interests of the US. Pearl Harbour was a great way of swaying public opinion. The US had also deciphered all the Japanese radio codes and none of the more modern expensive ships were in harbour on the day of the bombing (though they were scheduled to be).
I don't think the US military command would sacrifice a shitload of their boats and men to be given an 'opportunity' to engage in war. They only engaged in war with Germany because Germany declared war on them: AFTER Pearl Harbour.

Elements of the US were quite happy to work with the Nazis...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 … 40,00.html
3 capital ships and no carriers or subs hardly constitutes "shitloads", which is exactly the point. There should have been many more ships there.

It is hardly like Germany declared war on the US just like that, the US declared war on Japan, who Germany were allied with (though were under no strict obligation to declare war on them under the terms of the pact).

Add to that things like the McCollum memo and the fact that the Americans were in possession of intercepts containing details of the attack prior to it occurring and you have a lot of evidence, mostly circumstantial, that some elements in the US government/military had some prior knowledge of the attack.

I'm not saying it's certain - not by a long shot. But it is certainly possible.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-12-10 12:34:28)

Moist.Niek
Member
+11|6421
None of them.
All bullshit without real prove..
All speculations
imortal
Member
+240|7101|Austin, TX

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

No it wasn't. Public opinion was set against the war, but the government were keen to get involved as they realised an Axis victory would not be in the best interests of the US. Pearl Harbour was a great way of swaying public opinion. The US had also deciphered all the Japanese radio codes and none of the more modern expensive ships were in harbour on the day of the bombing (though they were scheduled to be).
I don't think the US military command would sacrifice a shitload of their boats and men to be given an 'opportunity' to engage in war. They only engaged in war with Germany because Germany declared war on them: AFTER Pearl Harbour.

Elements of the US were quite happy to work with the Nazis...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 … 40,00.html
3 capital ships and no carriers or subs hardly constitutes "shitloads", which is exactly the point. There should have been many more ships there.

It is hardly like Germany declared war on the US just like that, the US declared war on Japan, who Germany were allied with (though were under no strict obligation to declare war on them under the terms of the pact).

Add to that things like the McCollum memo and the fact that the Americans were in possession of intercepts containing details of the attack prior to it occurring and you have a lot of evidence, mostly circumstantial, that some elements in the US government/military had some prior knowledge of the attack.

I'm not saying it's certain - not by a long shot. But it is certainly possible.
I am afraid you are looking at things from a current point of view.  In the '30s and '40s, the battleship was THE capital ship.  The US developed carrier warfare out of desperation, since their battleships were knocked out of commision.  Subs and aircraft carriers were not considered front line or primary fighting ships.  Oh, and the US lost 8 capital ships during the attack, even though 5 of them would be able to be repaired by the end of the war.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7018|SE London

imortal wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


I don't think the US military command would sacrifice a shitload of their boats and men to be given an 'opportunity' to engage in war. They only engaged in war with Germany because Germany declared war on them: AFTER Pearl Harbour.

Elements of the US were quite happy to work with the Nazis...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 … 40,00.html
3 capital ships and no carriers or subs hardly constitutes "shitloads", which is exactly the point. There should have been many more ships there.

It is hardly like Germany declared war on the US just like that, the US declared war on Japan, who Germany were allied with (though were under no strict obligation to declare war on them under the terms of the pact).

Add to that things like the McCollum memo and the fact that the Americans were in possession of intercepts containing details of the attack prior to it occurring and you have a lot of evidence, mostly circumstantial, that some elements in the US government/military had some prior knowledge of the attack.

I'm not saying it's certain - not by a long shot. But it is certainly possible.
I am afraid you are looking at things from a current point of view.  In the '30s and '40s, the battleship was THE capital ship.  The US developed carrier warfare out of desperation, since their battleships were knocked out of commision.  Subs and aircraft carriers were not considered front line or primary fighting ships.  Oh, and the US lost 8 capital ships during the attack, even though 5 of them would be able to be repaired by the end of the war.
That was what the Japanese thought. The USN had a far more progressive attitude to naval warfare than you are giving them credit for (as is outlined in many of their battle plan scenarios drawn up prior to the attack).

Oh, and if a ship can be repaired - it isn't classed as being "lost", just damaged.
(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7265|Grapevine, TX

CameronPoe wrote:

9/11 - incompetency, not conspiracy.
Moon landing - too difficult to fake.
JFK assassination - possible that there were 2 gunmen.
Pearl Harbor - incompetency, not conspiracy.
US 2000/2004 Election - 2000 Florida probably not squeaky clean, 2004 fine.
Aliens - ate my granma.
QFE             wait, what?



simply amazing. I agree with CameronPoe for the 3rd time in over two years.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7052|do not disturb

None.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7121|United States of America
Sciences of physics and things of that nature disprove parts of the 9/11 Conspiracy (controlled demolition BS), the moon landing conspiracy arguments, and the second shooter JFK conspiracy. For the other ones I will entertain the notion that it is concievable that a conspiracy could happen, but I have little doubt that a conspiracy is not the case of what actually occurred.
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|6983|the best galaxy
pics or it didn't happen - wait - there's tons of UFO pics and video.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
Strngs012
Could I have 10,000 marbles please
+40|6854|Florida
Monn landing was a hoax
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6847|'Murka

Bertster7 wrote:

imortal wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


3 capital ships and no carriers or subs hardly constitutes "shitloads", which is exactly the point. There should have been many more ships there.

It is hardly like Germany declared war on the US just like that, the US declared war on Japan, who Germany were allied with (though were under no strict obligation to declare war on them under the terms of the pact).

Add to that things like the McCollum memo and the fact that the Americans were in possession of intercepts containing details of the attack prior to it occurring and you have a lot of evidence, mostly circumstantial, that some elements in the US government/military had some prior knowledge of the attack.

I'm not saying it's certain - not by a long shot. But it is certainly possible.
I am afraid you are looking at things from a current point of view.  In the '30s and '40s, the battleship was THE capital ship.  The US developed carrier warfare out of desperation, since their battleships were knocked out of commision.  Subs and aircraft carriers were not considered front line or primary fighting ships.  Oh, and the US lost 8 capital ships during the attack, even though 5 of them would be able to be repaired by the end of the war.
That was what the Japanese thought. The USN had a far more progressive attitude to naval warfare than you are giving them credit for (as is outlined in many of their battle plan scenarios drawn up prior to the attack).

Oh, and if a ship can be repaired - it isn't classed as being "lost", just damaged.
For crying out loud, just dig into Wikipedia a bit and you'll find counters to all your arguments, Berster. Specifically the McCollum memo and the intercepts. Having them (intercepts) and decrypting/translating them in time to do anything are completely different issues.

imortal is spot on about the role of battleships vs carriers. We changed our maritime doctrine from Mahanism to the carrier-centric model specifically because after Pearl we didn't have the battleships to work with...at least not for a few years. By the time they were refitted, the fight was nearly done. So, yes...they were, for all intents and purposes, lost to the US for WW2.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|7006|Portland, OR, USA

imortal wrote:

djphetal wrote:

No fucking way LHO could have been the only gunman.
Why?  They have proved it was possible for him to get the shots off in the time given.  They have proven it was possible for him to have walked to where he was arrested.  Or is it just the bullets damage paths that make you think what you do?
No.

There is absolutely no way he could have accurately shot those three shots.
-Why was the Zapruder film edited? (Watch it, slides were obviously cut out)
-Why was all of the evidence locked up until sometime in the next couple decades?
-Why was the presidential limo (a prime piece of evidence) refurbished?
-How did they loose JFK's brain?!
-A teacher I had actually interviewed people who were there they day of the assassination and they claimed to have heard shots coming from behind them (the grassy knoll).
-I would be floored if he pulled it off by himself.

-America entered WWI when the Lusitania was sent into waters known to be infested with German ships, it was a civilian ship carrying civilians and munitions...
-America entered WWII after Pearl Harbor, a "surprise" attack that the Australians warned America about when they picked up a large fleet of -Japanese ships going towards Hawaii.  It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say the the president provoked the attack tbh.
-America started the war with Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin incident when American ships were sent out of international waters and into Vietnamese water and attacked by "PT boats" (a dingy if anything, I believe that many higher-ups from the time have been interviewed saying that the whole thing was a farce)
-America started the war with Iraq after 9/11, an attace k that several agencies knew was coming, but did nothing about.  It didn't help that there was a planned Air Force exercise running at the same time diagramming a similar situation; obvious confusion ensued when jets were scrambled... but they never made it to escort the hijacked air planes.. but then they were only known to be hijacked from 30+ minutes...

Coincidences are so neat... and surprisingly convenient for the military industrial complex.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

DesertFox- wrote:

Sciences of physics and things of that nature disprove parts of the 9/11 Conspiracy (controlled demolition BS), the moon landing conspiracy arguments, and the second shooter JFK conspiracy. For the other ones I will entertain the notion that it is concievable that a conspiracy could happen, but I have little doubt that a conspiracy is not the case of what actually occurred.
You do realize that the towers fell at roughly free-fall speed (9.8 m/s).  That would mean there would have had to have been no resistance from the floors below, and that doesn't make sense with the way the building was built.  There was an incredibly sturdy core in the middle, and it has been claimed that the fuel from the jets heated the steel beams enough to weaken them (this could potentially happen even though much of the fuel would have burned off in the initial explosion).  Even if it had weakened the core, the floor below would have been just as sturdy and given some resistance.  It doesn't make too much sense (physics sense) that two of the most well built buildings would fall at free-fall speeds when other sky scrapers have stood through 24 hour fires.  Not to mention the fact that there was apparently molten steel running through thbottom of ground zero. (remember the steel was weakened, not melted.  Thermite however, could have done that..)

WTC building 7 is an interesting story two, buildings.. well skyscrapers.. generally don't collapse because of fire, these shouldn't have been any different.

And while everything could have simply been a terrible coincidence, it never hurts to question.

Last edited by CommieChipmunk (2007-12-10 18:44:22)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6847|'Murka

Conspiracies are remarkably easy to "find" with the benefit (after the fact) of perfect knowledge of when, where, how, and by whom something occurred. The trouble is that they're never uncovered beforehand...why is that if it's SO obvious to all of the "experts" afterward?

Oh, I know. It's called "hindsight is 20/20".

Last edited by FEOS (2007-12-10 18:42:30)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
iamangry
Member
+59|7082|The United States of America

wingman_lajoda wrote:

The Earth is Flat...  LOL

http://theflatearthsociety.org/

From the FAQ   http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in … ic=11211.0


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
Holy Crap!  One quarter of americans ARE retarded!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7037|132 and Bush

wingman_lajoda wrote:

The Earth is Flat...  LOL

http://theflatearthsociety.org/

From the FAQ   http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in … ic=11211.0


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
Read through the forums... comedy gold.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7121|United States of America

iamangry wrote:

wingman_lajoda wrote:

The Earth is Flat...  LOL

http://theflatearthsociety.org/

From the FAQ   http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in … ic=11211.0


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
Holy Crap!  One quarter of americans ARE retarded!
And 50% of Americans aren't as retarded as that, but are definately dumb, so there's a 25% slice of population that is "not dumb".
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7080
it was an inside job.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7037|132 and Bush

http://images.google.com/images?q=see+t … amp;tab=wi

Q: No way could the government possibly guard the entire Ice Wall!  It would take too many men!  Millions of men!

A: Not really.  You could do it with a few hundred and some basic equipment.
I lol'ed .. Hard
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|6983|the best galaxy
Here's the truth as I know it:
Vietnam war was a false flag operation - there were no, nada, zero PT boats attacking the US ships. A high ranking diplomat has admitted that recently.
The base commander at Roswell admitted the day after Roswell that they had captured an alien craft. Later retracted off cause. Lots of videos about how he showed the alien artifacts with hieroglyphs on them to his kids at home.
Lusitania was warned in the US papers by the German embassy in US that it would be attacked but top US and UK military wanted it to sail to drag US into the war.
There's radar recordings of crafts going much faster than anything man made plus 200 ex military willing to testify to congress about their UFO experiences.
The 9/11 attack stinks to high heaven. No tail or engines at Pentagon and no bodies at the hole in the field.
The top international bankers, top military, top politicians, top CEO's they are all members of the same occult clubs with strange rituals. Are they just having a good time? 
EU is not a democracy - the EU commission is not elected but makes the laws.
Christianity is a conspiracy at best - watch "Zeitgeist" at video.google.com
Open to evidence of any kind - it would be nice if I was wrong.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7121|United States of America

Freke1 wrote:

Here's the truth as I know it:
Vietnam war was a false flag operation - there were no, nada, zero PT boats attacking the US ships. A high ranking diplomat has admitted that recently.
The base commander at Roswell admitted the day after Roswell that they had captured an alien craft. Later retracted off cause. Lots of videos about how he showed the alien artifacts with hieroglyphs on them to his kids at home.
Lusitania was warned in the US papers by the German embassy in US that it would be attacked but top US and UK military wanted it to sail to drag US into the war.
There's radar recordings of crafts going much faster than anything man made plus 200 ex military willing to testify to congress about their UFO experiences.
The 9/11 attack stinks to high heaven. No tail or engines at Pentagon and no bodies at the hole in the field.
The top international bankers, top military, top politicians, top CEO's they are all members of the same occult clubs with strange rituals. Are they just having a good time? 
EU is not a democracy - the EU commission is not elected but makes the laws.
Christianity is a conspiracy at best - watch "Zeitgeist" at video.google.com
Open to evidence of any kind - it would be nice if I was wrong.
Wellsir, as far as Vietnam and Lusitania go, I'd like to see your evidence for those claims as they go against the more accepted belief.
9/11 - It makes me so angry when people think that this was a conspiracy. There's an excellent History Channel special called 9/11 Conspiracies that dominates, among those you mentioned, a huge number of the conspiracy theories presented in Loose Change.
Occult clubs and new world order whatnot-----seems to be a generalization at best and I'm seeing no evidence for it again.
Your EU claim is pretty much just defining the word itself and doesn't require anything deeper. The United States touts all the victories for democracy and whatever, too, but it's more of a republic anyway.
Christianity- what is the goal of this here conspiracy? If it's world domination, I'd say they missed their chance.

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