Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Anyway this thread isn't directed at the US.
que?

seems the hot points are the current management's POV.

anyway, like i said - no hope of changing mind = someone is called a nazi
The current management isn't the US.
Let me be succicint - seems like the hot points you raised in the OP is that of current US foreign policy, which happens to be led by the president.  So it's NOT directed there?

And for the second part - no willingness to budge from a point = someone is called a nazi.

I do not believe there's going to be a magic wand waived in November next year, if you believe that you are incredibly naive.  Change is gradual.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7199

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Ty wrote:

Using "Appeaser" as one of the many insulting labels, (an ever-increasing trend,) shows nothing but ignorance and fear.
Funny, that is my definition of appeasement.
Are you a dictionary?
Yes.  Next question.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6567|North Tonawanda, NY
(Regarding the original post)  I have never heard of half of those arguments.  And if I heard them in conversation, I would immediately assume I was talking with an ignoramus.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2007-12-11 16:37:09)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

usmarine2005 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:


Funny, that is my definition of appeasement.
Are you a dictionary?
Yes.  Next question.
Which one?
The_Mac
Member
+96|6662

aj0404 wrote:

i like sentiment better.
two different things.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7199

sergeriver wrote:

Which one?
Goddammit wtf do you want?
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Pug wrote:


que?

seems the hot points are the current management's POV.

anyway, like i said - no hope of changing mind = someone is called a nazi
The current management isn't the US.
Let me be succicint - seems like the hot points you raised in the OP is that of current US foreign policy, which happens to be led by the president.  So it's NOT directed there?

And for the second part - no willingness to budge from a point = someone is called a nazi.

I do not believe there's going to be a magic wand waived in November next year, if you believe that you are incredibly naive.  Change is gradual.
Well, there was a huge change, negative of course, in 2000.  Maybe there'll be no magic wand, but GWB will leave, and that's a lot.  But I agree that change will be gradual, after all fixing the mess Bush'll leave is not easy task.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

usmarine2005 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Which one?
Goddammit wtf do you want?
I assume you are drunk.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7199

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Which one?
Goddammit wtf do you want?
I assume you are drunk.
No I am at work you tool bag
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7081
appeasers
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Well, there was a huge change, negative of course, in 2000.  Maybe there'll be no magic wand, but GWB will leave, and that's a lot.  But I agree that change will be gradual, after all fixing the mess Bush'll leave is not easy task.
My whole point is absolutism (that a word?  I mean one-sided subborn arguments) on this forum lead nowhere, except for calling people names.

What's ironic is you are arguing the same point in the OP by using the same tactic....
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6848|'Murka

san4 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

10-You are a Liberal: you must be an appeaser if you are a Liberal because, well everyone knows Liberals are appeasers.
Liberals like to believe that virtually everyone in the world can be negotiated with if you understand them well enough. They don't like to think that there are enemies who will never compromise or relent.

People who call liberals appeasers believe that there is no point in trying to understand or negotiate with terrorists, communists, Iran, etc. because doing so will not cause those groups to compromise or relent in their opposition to the US and Western interests.

The Liberals are right.
Actually Liberals are left.

I guess Sun Tzu was the ultimate liberal then? "Know your enemy as you know yourself and in a thousand battles you will never lose"...or something to that effect, anyway. It's been a while since I read Art of War...but I would bet he'd fall more on the "conservative" side of things nowadays.

Your definition of liberal is someone who does not live in the real world:

san4 wrote:

They don't like to think that there are enemies who will never compromise or relent.
The unfortunate reality is that there are enemies who fit that category, and they must be dealt with in some other manner.

But then again, I think people who throw around the word appeasers as a descriptor of people they don't agree with are idiots. Much like those who put labels on everyone (Islamophobe, homophobe, fascist, etc) who don't take as "liberal" of a view of the world as they do.

Last edited by FEOS (2007-12-11 17:50:05)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6882|The Land of Scott Walker

san4 wrote:

Liberals like to believe that virtually everyone in the world can be negotiated with if you understand them well enough. They don't like to think that there are enemies who will never compromise or relent.
There's the problem.  I don't want a leader that continues negotiations when the enemy IS unrelenting and will not compromise.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

usmarine2005 wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:


Goddammit wtf do you want?
I assume you are drunk.
No I am at work you tool bag
I love you too.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Well, there was a huge change, negative of course, in 2000.  Maybe there'll be no magic wand, but GWB will leave, and that's a lot.  But I agree that change will be gradual, after all fixing the mess Bush'll leave is not easy task.
My whole point is absolutism (that a word?  I mean one-sided subborn arguments) on this forum lead nowhere, except for calling people names.

What's ironic is you are arguing the same point in the OP by using the same tactic....
With some kind of humor.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

Stingray24 wrote:

san4 wrote:

Liberals like to believe that virtually everyone in the world can be negotiated with if you understand them well enough. They don't like to think that there are enemies who will never compromise or relent.
There's the problem.  I don't want a leader that continues negotiations when the enemy IS unrelenting and will not compromise.
Nobody is unrelenting for ever.  Sooner or later everyone compromises.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6848|'Murka

sergeriver wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

san4 wrote:

Liberals like to believe that virtually everyone in the world can be negotiated with if you understand them well enough. They don't like to think that there are enemies who will never compromise or relent.
There's the problem.  I don't want a leader that continues negotiations when the enemy IS unrelenting and will not compromise.
Nobody is unrelenting for ever.  Sooner or later everyone compromises.
And there is the basic fallacy. How long do you wait for the other guy to compromise? Until he is in a position such that you can't do anything about it? Then there's no reason for him to compromise...he's won. And you've just appeased him. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

FEOS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


There's the problem.  I don't want a leader that continues negotiations when the enemy IS unrelenting and will not compromise.
Nobody is unrelenting for ever.  Sooner or later everyone compromises.
And there is the basic fallacy. How long do you wait for the other guy to compromise? Until he is in a position such that you can't do anything about it? Then there's no reason for him to compromise...he's won. And you've just appeased him. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson.
If you are smart enough you'll make him compromise by the time you need.  That's not appeasement, that's negotiation.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7278|Cologne, Germany

to me, an appeaser is someone who agrees to a compromise that only his opponent benefits from, with the goal to avoid further conflict.
Appeasement is usually one-sided, whereas a classical compromise will require both sides to give up something, so that an agreement can be reached.

Usually, appeasement will result in the appeaser to be perceived as weak and is therefore not likely to avoid further conflict, unless, of course, the other party got what it wanted, and is satisfied. I dare say, however, that in most cases, appeasement was not successful in finally bringing a conflict or argument to an end. Why do I say that ? Because I believe that successful negotiations require that both parties respect each other and treat each other as equals, and with appeasement, that just isn't the case.

With that being said, the concept of appeasement, negotiations, etc. only applies to coherent entities such as nations, governments, corporations, or individuals. You cannot negotiate with terrorists, because there is usually no one to negotiate with, and their views are usually so fanatical and their demands so outrageous, that a reasonable compromise can not be reached anyway.
Terrorist organizations like Al'Quaida do not have actual political goals anyway. If that were the case, there would at least be some basis for negotiations.

Appeasement is a form of compromise. As with any compromise, the important question is what you're willing to give up to reach a solution.
Thus, there may be situations when appeasement as a strategy could work out.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6992
The word 'appeaser' has negative connotations and is inaccurately and deliberately inappropriately used by people without decent arguments to label non-hardliners with whom they disagree.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-12 06:51:51)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7038|132 and Bush

B.Schuss wrote:

to me, an appeaser is someone who agrees to a compromise that only his opponent benefits from, with the goal to avoid further conflict.
Appeasement is usually one-sided, whereas a classical compromise will require both sides to give up something, so that an agreement can be reached.

Usually, appeasement will result in the appeaser to be perceived as weak and is therefore not likely to avoid further conflict, unless, of course, the other party got what it wanted, and is satisfied. I dare say, however, that in most cases, appeasement was not successful in finally bringing a conflict or argument to an end. Why do I say that ? Because I believe that successful negotiations require that both parties respect each other and treat each other as equals, and with appeasement, that just isn't the case.

With that being said, the concept of appeasement, negotiations, etc. only applies to coherent entities such as nations, governments, corporations, or individuals. You cannot negotiate with terrorists, because there is usually no one to negotiate with, and their views are usually so fanatical and their demands so outrageous, that a reasonable compromise can not be reached anyway.
Terrorist organizations like Al'Quaida do not have actual political goals anyway. If that were the case, there would at least be some basis for negotiations.

Appeasement is a form of compromise. As with any compromise, the important question is what you're willing to give up to reach a solution.
Thus, there may be situations when appeasement as a strategy could work out.
Could work yes. Unfortunately in some cultures it's a dog eat dog world and appeasement could be seen as a sign of weakness.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7278|Cologne, Germany

well, the successful strategy depends on numerous factors. Who you are dealing with ( individual, corporation, government ), what's at stake, what you are willing to give up, etc..

Every conflict or argument is different, and has to be adressed differently. One could certainly draw up a situation where appeasement as a strategy would work. How realistic that scenario would be, however, is a totally different point...

What about Al'Quaeda, for example ? Or radical islamists ?
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

Kmarion wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

to me, an appeaser is someone who agrees to a compromise that only his opponent benefits from, with the goal to avoid further conflict.
Appeasement is usually one-sided, whereas a classical compromise will require both sides to give up something, so that an agreement can be reached.

Usually, appeasement will result in the appeaser to be perceived as weak and is therefore not likely to avoid further conflict, unless, of course, the other party got what it wanted, and is satisfied. I dare say, however, that in most cases, appeasement was not successful in finally bringing a conflict or argument to an end. Why do I say that ? Because I believe that successful negotiations require that both parties respect each other and treat each other as equals, and with appeasement, that just isn't the case.

With that being said, the concept of appeasement, negotiations, etc. only applies to coherent entities such as nations, governments, corporations, or individuals. You cannot negotiate with terrorists, because there is usually no one to negotiate with, and their views are usually so fanatical and their demands so outrageous, that a reasonable compromise can not be reached anyway.
Terrorist organizations like Al'Quaida do not have actual political goals anyway. If that were the case, there would at least be some basis for negotiations.

Appeasement is a form of compromise. As with any compromise, the important question is what you're willing to give up to reach a solution.
Thus, there may be situations when appeasement as a strategy could work out.
Could work yes. Unfortunately in some cultures it's a dog eat dog world and appeasement could be seen as a sign of weakness.
Why do most Americans give the word a negative meaning, I mean there are several positive meanings of the word appeasement, but for you guys is the third one in the OP.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7081

sergeriver wrote:

Why do most Americans give the word a negative meaning, I mean there are several positive meanings of the word appeasement, but for you guys is the third one in the OP.
this is why...
https://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/612/Neville_Chamberlain_and_Adolf_Hitler_Peace_in_our_time.jpg
because the majority of the world seems to believe world history started in 1945, where the United States has ALWAYS been the predominant power.

this is not debatable, not with me at least.  You asked why and I hope this give you a better understanding of the negative connotation with that word.



peace in our time.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7194|Argentina

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Why do most Americans give the word a negative meaning, I mean there are several positive meanings of the word appeasement, but for you guys is the third one in the OP.
this is why...
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost … r_time.jpg
because the majority of the world seems to believe world history started in 1945, where the United States has ALWAYS been the predominant power.

this is not debatable, not with me at least.  You asked why and I hope this give you a better understanding of the negative connotation with that word.



peace in our time.
The World didn't start with Neville Chamberlain either man.

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