Pages: 1 2

 

2007-12-20 14:05:06
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6928|Northern California
Wow, this is a topic I'm not sure on...so I'm going to sponge off of DS&T for some reasoning...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22344261/

Turns out that some housing projects in New Orleans are set for demolition.  For those not in the know, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development ("HUD") provides housing in the form of low income housing..what most simply call 'projects."  In most big cities and metro areas, these projects are typical US ghettos.  Since Katrina devastated most of the neighborhoods and communities of New Orleans, the city (and HUD) have decided to demolish the government housing 'projects.' 

This demolition is an obviously hostile decision for the previous occupants of the projects slated for demolition and is being met bitterly from the pre-Katrina project occupants and others in the area who think it's unfair.  There were riots recently and attempts to sway the city council to not support the demolition.

HUD and the city are hoping to implement some mixed housing supportive of mixed income dwellers.

My opinion is hard to make because:

1) I think the project dwellers need a home..preferably something similar to what they had at the least.
2) I also am ok with the mixed income developments, but they won't accomodate the masses that lived in the project housing, and the income limits will not stretch as low as they did previously.
3) I'm also not supportive of subsidizing housing when 99% of those receiving do nothing to improve their plight, therefore sitting on their asses taking free hand outs.
4) But where will they go?  Will they just be homeless in NOLA, will they be refugees in neighboring cities and states?

Who is to say what it should be?  I believe since it's government owned, they do have the right to do what they wish.  I also think the government has the responsibility to house people.

Very tough call.  Rebuild the ghetto?  or Rebuild as a mixed income community running the lowest income people out of town or to homelessness.


**notice I don't use race in this situation because I don't give credit to the races that traditionally don't make high incomes because there's no reason they can't do better; ie., I believe it's those low income races that have a "culture" to persist in low income environments**

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-20 14:08:44)

2007-12-20 14:46:21
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6842|North Carolina
I prefer the approach of eliminating the Dept. of HUD, and then moving all the responsibilities to the state level.  Let Louisiana deal with this, because I really don't give a shit what happens over there, nor do I want my tax money funding any of it.

Emergencies should be handled through private agencies and state governments.  It's time we stopped making everyone pay for people who choose to live in high risk areas.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-12-20 14:46:56)

2007-12-20 15:02:38
mikkel
Member
+383|7038
I never saw the point in congregating impoverished people. Where's the motivation and the examples to aspire to if all you see is poverty and violence? I say that low and middle class should have no geographic separation, rather than perpetuating the creation of these factories of ignorance, apathy, violence and social waste.
2007-12-20 17:29:56
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|7067|Washington, DC

We can support billions a week in Iraq, I think they can afford some housing.
2007-12-20 17:30:10
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7199

That place was a dump WAY before any hurricane came near it.
2007-12-20 17:39:39
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7099|USA
With my mom being from Mississippi and having aunts in New Orleans...well not now......I'd like to tell a few people in this thread to go fuck their mothers.

On topic:

There are 1,000,000 much more pressing matters in New Orleans. This project demolition should not be a priority at this time.

I agree with state level responsibility, but federal levels insist on budgeting and pork barreling never ending numbers of "bills and projects" to fund themselves and friends in the disguise of helping the poor etc. The government has ballooned the government and the federal levels like the control. If you think Katrina should have been handled by the state of Lousiana, what was FEMA created for then? To say Katrina was not FEMA's responsibilty to respond to in a much more quick and efficient manner, pretty much nulls any reason of having FEMA.
2007-12-20 18:21:07
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6930|Connecticut
They can live in the back of their $40,000 SUV while they look for a job to save for an apartment. On the bright side, if they are in their car it is less likely their $5,000 "22 rims will get stolen or their $2,000 stereo system. 
Malloy must go
2007-12-20 18:27:44
Skorpy-chan
Member
+127|6782|Twyford, UK
Well, sure, demolish it, but rebuild it properly afterwards. Write it off on the emergencies budget and just spend a little less money elsewhere. Maybe give some politicians a pay cut to fund it?

You can't just demolish old housing and not replace it.
2007-12-20 19:12:13
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6848|'Murka

I haven't seen the entire news report, but if I understood correctly, nobody is living in those places now. They can't because of the contamination from the Katrina flooding. So they're sitting there empty. If they get demolished, the area gets cleaned up, and new housing is built...then someone can live there again--including the people who used to live there.

And Turq: If we left everything to the state in LA, it would go about as well as the state's response to Katrina went. LA is full of incompetent politicians, from the local to the state levels. (I lived there for six years and my parents still do)
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2007-12-20 20:12:24
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6842|North Carolina

Hurricane wrote:

We can support billions a week in Iraq, I think they can afford some housing.
We can afford both, but I'd prefer we did neither.  The state should handle this, and we need to get the fuck out of Iraq anyway.
2007-12-20 20:13:25
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6842|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

And Turq: If we left everything to the state in LA, it would go about as well as the state's response to Katrina went. LA is full of incompetent politicians, from the local to the state levels. (I lived there for six years and my parents still do)
I don't doubt that, but that's Louisiana's problem, not mine.
2007-12-20 20:27:45
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7038|132 and Bush

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

With my mom being from Mississippi and having aunts in New Orleans...well not now......I'd like to tell a few people in this thread to go fuck their mothers.

On topic:

There are 1,000,000 much more pressing matters in New Orleans. This project demolition should not be a priority at this time.

I agree with state level responsibility, but federal levels insist on budgeting and pork barreling never ending numbers of "bills and projects" to fund themselves and friends in the disguise of helping the poor etc. The government has ballooned the government and the federal levels like the control. If you think Katrina should have been handled by the state of Lousiana, what was FEMA created for then? To say Katrina was not FEMA's responsibilty to respond to in a much more quick and efficient manner, pretty much nulls any reason of having FEMA.
It is the State responsibility now and always has been. FEMA is not a first response organization. The primary role of FEMA isn't to roll in and rescue citizens from their roof tops and distribute water. They are pretty much there to write checks and help rebuild. They obviously had their failings in NO. But in terms of lives lost we need to focus our attention on the local and state government. I've been through my share of Hurricanes. Florida doesn't have an aging dike problem to deal with, but I distinctly remember thinking wtf is going on before the storm hit. Nagin was a joke and Blanco was a disgrace. In FL anytime we get hint of a storm we strategically pre-place water trucks and move people out of harms way. Jeb used to get on TV and get the message out in English and Spanish..lol. His leadership was calm and assertive. Very different from what we saw in LA.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-12-20 22:44:39
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6928|Northern California
kmarion,
Fema is a first responder organization (doesn't mean they will BE first responders..but that is their charter).  They require all county and local OES departments to follow their new training guidelines and practices (like ICS organization) so when they arrive on scene they take over and use their power to command all local and regional assets.  I'm fema trained as a RACES member for my local sheriff's dept OES as a radio operator, search and rescue trainee (soon to finish hopefully), and I'm also a CERT member (also FEMA) which means I'm a first responder in disasters.  When the Bay Area is destroyed by "the quake", FEMA will be responding...through us locally situated, underfunded, saps...then they'll come in with their three ring circus, press kits, photo ops, and they'll clear a spot for Bush to make a cool photo op with the golden gate bridge smoldering in the back ground so he can say "HEckuva job Chertoff!"

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-20 22:46:08)

2007-12-20 22:49:57
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France
When I lived in NOLA, there were LOTS of ghetto housing.  Not sure if they are talking about knocking all of them down, but if its just a neighborhood relocating them should have been considered.  Or did they not do enough to help people relocate already?

I'm sure the priority list of what gets rebuilt and in what order has got to be one of the most stressful jobs a pencil pusher can have these days.
2007-12-20 22:50:08
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6842|North Carolina

IRONCHEF wrote:

kmarion,
Fema is a first responder organization (doesn't mean they will BE first responders..but that is their charter).  They require all county and local OES departments to follow their new training guidelines and practices (like ICS organization) so when they arrive on scene they take over and use their power to command all local and regional assets.  I'm fema trained as a RACES member for my local sheriff's dept OES as a radio operator, search and rescue trainee (soon to finish hopefully), and I'm also a CERT member (also FEMA) which means I'm a first responder in disasters.  When the Bay Area is destroyed by "the quake", FEMA will be responding...through us locally situated, underfunded, saps...then they'll come in with their three ring circus, press kits, photo ops, and they'll clear a spot for Bush to make a cool photo op with the golden gate bridge smoldering in the back ground so he can say "HEckuva job Chertoff!"
It sounds like you've seen firsthand why we need to privatize emergency services.
2007-12-20 23:13:48
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7038|132 and Bush

IRONCHEF wrote:

kmarion,
Fema is a first responder organization (doesn't mean they will BE first responders..but that is their charter).  They require all county and local OES departments to follow their new training guidelines and practices (like ICS organization) so when they arrive on scene they take over and use their power to command all local and regional assets.  I'm fema trained as a RACES member for my local sheriff's dept OES as a radio operator, search and rescue trainee (soon to finish hopefully), and I'm also a CERT member (also FEMA) which means I'm a first responder in disasters.  When the Bay Area is destroyed by "the quake", FEMA will be responding...through us locally situated, underfunded, saps...then they'll come in with their three ring circus, press kits, photo ops, and they'll clear a spot for Bush to make a cool photo op with the golden gate bridge smoldering in the back ground so he can say "HEckuva job Chertoff!"
That's what I meant by first response. Meaining most likely it will be the local agencies on the scene first. FEMA can't do anything until a state of emergency has been declared right? Less than 48 hours to mobilize, react, and be the first ones on the scene isn't going to happen. I never excluded the failings of the Federal response. But from my own personal experience I place more accountability on the politicians who are supposed to be dedicated to serving the specific people affected. I understand the overwhelming circumstance. What I don't understand is the lack of leadership amongst the locals.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-12-20 23:20:29
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7038|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

kmarion,
Fema is a first responder organization (doesn't mean they will BE first responders..but that is their charter).  They require all county and local OES departments to follow their new training guidelines and practices (like ICS organization) so when they arrive on scene they take over and use their power to command all local and regional assets.  I'm fema trained as a RACES member for my local sheriff's dept OES as a radio operator, search and rescue trainee (soon to finish hopefully), and I'm also a CERT member (also FEMA) which means I'm a first responder in disasters.  When the Bay Area is destroyed by "the quake", FEMA will be responding...through us locally situated, underfunded, saps...then they'll come in with their three ring circus, press kits, photo ops, and they'll clear a spot for Bush to make a cool photo op with the golden gate bridge smoldering in the back ground so he can say "HEckuva job Chertoff!"
It sounds like you've seen firsthand why we need to privatize emergency services.
One of my good friends worked for FEMA in Texas. He was sent to LA for a year. He said they had a hard time writing checks because people were unwilling (or incapable) of filling out basic stuff. I thought that was ridiculous. This was after the scandals.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-12-20 23:55:31
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France
To be fair, I have someone in my office who relocated after Katrina.  He might be bitching, he might be telling the truth...but the application process seemed to have a few bumps.  And the guy is pretty smart.

But I also know from experience that some peeps in NOLA took great advantage of the social programs...aka why should I work? Comes to mind.
2007-12-20 23:56:42
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7038|132 and Bush

Pug wrote:

To be fair, I have someone in my office who relocated after Katrina.  He might be bitching, he might be telling the truth...but the application process seemed to have a few bumps.  And the guy is pretty smart.

But I also know from experience that some peeps in NOLA took great advantage of the social programs...aka why should I work? Comes to mind.
Yea, it's probably a combination of things. I know that after the abuse made the news things changed.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-12-21 00:00:18
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France
For instance, I know of a story about someone who received their government check, bought a Lexus, and then bitched about not being able to afford a house.
2007-12-21 00:01:18
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France

Kmarion wrote:

Pug wrote:

To be fair, I have someone in my office who relocated after Katrina.  He might be bitching, he might be telling the truth...but the application process seemed to have a few bumps.  And the guy is pretty smart.

But I also know from experience that some peeps in NOLA took great advantage of the social programs...aka why should I work? Comes to mind.
Yea, it's probably a combination of things. I know that after the abuse made the news things changed.
No, this guy settled 90% of the problems to date.  It's the goal line he's working on now.
2007-12-21 03:19:33
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6848|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And Turq: If we left everything to the state in LA, it would go about as well as the state's response to Katrina went. LA is full of incompetent politicians, from the local to the state levels. (I lived there for six years and my parents still do)
I don't doubt that, but that's Louisiana's problem, not mine.
True, the incompetence and corruption is LA's problem. But disaster recovery is FEMA's. Are you saying that each state should be wholly responsible for its own disaster recovery?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2007-12-21 06:49:52
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7099|USA

Kmarion wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

With my mom being from Mississippi and having aunts in New Orleans...well not now......I'd like to tell a few people in this thread to go fuck their mothers.

On topic:

There are 1,000,000 much more pressing matters in New Orleans. This project demolition should not be a priority at this time.

I agree with state level responsibility, but federal levels insist on budgeting and pork barreling never ending numbers of "bills and projects" to fund themselves and friends in the disguise of helping the poor etc. The government has ballooned the government and the federal levels like the control. If you think Katrina should have been handled by the state of Lousiana, what was FEMA created for then? To say Katrina was not FEMA's responsibilty to respond to in a much more quick and efficient manner, pretty much nulls any reason of having FEMA.
It is the State responsibility now and always has been. FEMA is not a first response organization. The primary role of FEMA isn't to roll in and rescue citizens from their roof tops and distribute water. They are pretty much there to write checks and help rebuild. They obviously had their failings in NO. But in terms of lives lost we need to focus our attention on the local and state government. I've been through my share of Hurricanes. Florida doesn't have an aging dike problem to deal with, but I distinctly remember thinking wtf is going on before the storm hit. Nagin was a joke and Blanco was a disgrace. In FL anytime we get hint of a storm we strategically pre-place water trucks and move people out of harms way. Jeb used to get on TV and get the message out in English and Spanish..lol. His leadership was calm and assertive. Very different from what we saw in LA.
Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, is an agency of the United States Department of Homeland Security. The purpose of FEMA (begun by Presidential Order on April 1, 1979)[1][3] is to coordinate the response to a disaster which has occurred in the United States and which overwhelms the resources of local and state authorities. The governor of the state in which the disaster occurred must declare a state of emergency and formally request from the President that FEMA and the federal government respond to the disaster.


They were responsible. They failed. And florida isn't a fishbowl. New Orleans was. At least Floridians had something to go back to. Don't compare Florida hurricanes to New Orleans Katrina. Apples and Oranges. As for Jeb, Im sure you'll get a chance to vote for him for Pres in the next 20 years or so.

Last edited by Mason4Assassin444 (2007-12-21 06:50:35)

2007-12-21 06:52:41
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7099|USA

Kmarion wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

kmarion,
Fema is a first responder organization (doesn't mean they will BE first responders..but that is their charter).  They require all county and local OES departments to follow their new training guidelines and practices (like ICS organization) so when they arrive on scene they take over and use their power to command all local and regional assets.  I'm fema trained as a RACES member for my local sheriff's dept OES as a radio operator, search and rescue trainee (soon to finish hopefully), and I'm also a CERT member (also FEMA) which means I'm a first responder in disasters.  When the Bay Area is destroyed by "the quake", FEMA will be responding...through us locally situated, underfunded, saps...then they'll come in with their three ring circus, press kits, photo ops, and they'll clear a spot for Bush to make a cool photo op with the golden gate bridge smoldering in the back ground so he can say "HEckuva job Chertoff!"
That's what I meant by first response. Meaining most likely it will be the local agencies on the scene first. FEMA can't do anything until a state of emergency has been declared right? Less than 48 hours to mobilize, react, and be the first ones on the scene isn't going to happen. I never excluded the failings of the Federal response. But from my own personal experience I place more accountability on the politicians who are supposed to be dedicated to serving the specific people affected. I understand the overwhelming circumstance. What I don't understand is the lack of leadership amongst the locals.
A state of emergency was declared the day before it hit.
2007-12-21 07:10:40
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6979|Texas - Bigger than France
OKAY, after further review, some points:

1) The ghettodwellers actually will be given an UPGRADE in housing.  The "mixed income" housing is what they are getting.
2) The protesters are not from the ghettos

Wow, NOLA a truly progressive city.

 

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