Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6881|The Land of Scott Walker

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Drakef wrote:

Stingray, you know as well as anyone else that a Muslim display would cause a tremendous outrage that the government would allocate tax dollars to a Muslim monument and that it endorsed the religion over others. It is completely apt, and demonstrates why there are those of us who would protest the advocation of Christianity and the allocation of tax dollars to set up a nativity scene. It is not enough that atheists are able to set up their own display (never mind that atheism is not an organized group that endorses any particular theme that would be sufficient for a display), but that if the government creates a nativity scene, should they not create an atheist display, or a Muslim display, or a Jewish display? A nativity scene by the government is not a religious expression, but a religious endorsement. It should be protected that anyone can create a religious expression (that does not infringe on others), but not that a singular one is protected by the government.
It would not cause an outrage during a Muslim holiday season, nor would a Muslim display endorse Islam over other religions.  In the same way, the nativity is singular only because Christianity is the only religion celebrating their most holy holiday this time of year.  Next year, Hanukkah will fall on December 22nd so a if Jews would like a Menorah displayed alongside, it should be included.  Then when Ramadan comes around in the fall season, Muslims can have their display.  The Muslim or Jewish display would not infringe on my religious freedom in any way.  Muslims are taxpayers just like everyone else and as long as they aren't forcing conversion I'm good.  I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.
I have no problem with what you said, because I essentially said the same thing on page one.  However, we disagree on the point of using tax dollars.  These displays should not be done using a single red cent of tax payer money.  If a group wants to privately fund it, so be it.  I have no problem with the location of the displays, as long as they are temporary during a holiday, and as long as all belief systems have the same opportunity.  But no tax dollars, period.
There has been no mention of tax dollars being used.  Even if tax dollars were used, they put up displays by each religion that requested an addition.  I could argue that, by restricting the use of tax dollars by any religious organization, government effectively endorses atheism. 

A Santa Claus display was included along with a wreath with a pentacle at the request of Wicca followers, so there goes the singular endorsement argument.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7172|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


It would not cause an outrage during a Muslim holiday season, nor would a Muslim display endorse Islam over other religions.  In the same way, the nativity is singular only because Christianity is the only religion celebrating their most holy holiday this time of year.  Next year, Hanukkah will fall on December 22nd so a if Jews would like a Menorah displayed alongside, it should be included.  Then when Ramadan comes around in the fall season, Muslims can have their display.  The Muslim or Jewish display would not infringe on my religious freedom in any way.  Muslims are taxpayers just like everyone else and as long as they aren't forcing conversion I'm good.  I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.
I have no problem with what you said, because I essentially said the same thing on page one.  However, we disagree on the point of using tax dollars.  These displays should not be done using a single red cent of tax payer money.  If a group wants to privately fund it, so be it.  I have no problem with the location of the displays, as long as they are temporary during a holiday, and as long as all belief systems have the same opportunity.  But no tax dollars, period.
There has been no mention of tax dollars being used.  Even if tax dollars were used, they put up displays by each religion that requested an addition.  I could argue that, by restricting the use of tax dollars by any religious organization, government effectively endorses atheism. 

A Santa Claus display was included along with a wreath with a pentacle at the request of Wicca followers, so there goes the singular endorsement argument.
I know the article never spoke about it.  It was brought up in previous arguments on page one, and I simply reiterated that in my first post.  Your post to which I commented did mention the use of tax dollars. 

None of the displays, Christian, Wiccan, or otherwise should be using tax dollars.  As for arguing that by not allowing tax dollars that is an endorsement of atheism, I could also argue that this is a violation of the tax exempt status of religious institutions.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7125|Tampa Bay Florida

Stingray24 wrote:

Drakef wrote:

Stingray, you know as well as anyone else that a Muslim display would cause a tremendous outrage that the government would allocate tax dollars to a Muslim monument and that it endorsed the religion over others. It is completely apt, and demonstrates why there are those of us who would protest the advocation of Christianity and the allocation of tax dollars to set up a nativity scene. It is not enough that atheists are able to set up their own display (never mind that atheism is not an organized group that endorses any particular theme that would be sufficient for a display), but that if the government creates a nativity scene, should they not create an atheist display, or a Muslim display, or a Jewish display? A nativity scene by the government is not a religious expression, but a religious endorsement. It should be protected that anyone can create a religious expression (that does not infringe on others), but not that a singular one is protected by the government.
It would not cause an outrage during a Muslim holiday season, nor would a Muslim display endorse Islam over other religions.  In the same way, the nativity is singular only because Christianity is the only religion celebrating their most holy holiday this time of year.  Next year, Hanukkah will fall on December 22nd so a if Jews would like a Menorah displayed alongside, it should be included.  Then when Ramadan comes around in the fall season, Muslims can have their display.  The Muslim or Jewish display would not infringe on my religious freedom in any way.  Muslims are taxpayers just like everyone else and as long as they aren't forcing conversion I'm good.  I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.

Atheists simply oppose all this expression which is the definition of infringement.  As you say, they cannot have their own display.  Apparently their display of their views is to get everyone else's display torn down.
Dude, no.......

You're just not getting it.  Atheists are not the only ones against this shit.  And yet you're making it into a religion vs. atheism issue.  Just..... no.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6798|Vancouver

Stingray24 wrote:

Drakef wrote:

Stingray, you know as well as anyone else that a Muslim display would cause a tremendous outrage that the government would allocate tax dollars to a Muslim monument and that it endorsed the religion over others. It is completely apt, and demonstrates why there are those of us who would protest the advocation of Christianity and the allocation of tax dollars to set up a nativity scene. It is not enough that atheists are able to set up their own display (never mind that atheism is not an organized group that endorses any particular theme that would be sufficient for a display), but that if the government creates a nativity scene, should they not create an atheist display, or a Muslim display, or a Jewish display? A nativity scene by the government is not a religious expression, but a religious endorsement. It should be protected that anyone can create a religious expression (that does not infringe on others), but not that a singular one is protected by the government.
It would not cause an outrage during a Muslim holiday season, nor would a Muslim display endorse Islam over other religions.  In the same way, the nativity is singular only because Christianity is the only religion celebrating their most holy holiday this time of year.  Next year, Hanukkah will fall on December 22nd so a if Jews would like a Menorah displayed alongside, it should be included.  Then when Ramadan comes around in the fall season, Muslims can have their display.  The Muslim or Jewish display would not infringe on my religious freedom in any way.  Muslims are taxpayers just like everyone else and as long as they aren't forcing conversion I'm good.  I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.

Atheists simply oppose all this expression which is the definition of infringement.  As you say, they cannot have their own display.  Apparently their display of their views is to get everyone else's display torn down.
Are you so blind and biased for Christianity that you refuse to acknowledge that there would very likely be outrage for a Muslim display in North America? You know it as well as I. Not many people would accept that the government would display something Islamic, nor be pleased that their tax dollars went towards it.

There is no display for atheism. It is a lack of beliefs; how can we properly acknowledge atheists if there is not a sufficient idea to display? So, how shall it be fair? The government should not celebrate a religion. That is a matter for private citizens. It should not spend tax dollars on it. It is not infringing on your religion if I do not want my tax dollars working to celebrate your religion. If it is infringing on your religion, then we are assuming that it is natural for the government to endorse religion. An infringement is that which harms rights, and I do not see the establishment of a nativity scene a right, nor something natural. It is not endorsing atheism by not endorsing a religion, but being completely neutral. How is not handing over tax dollars to a religion infringing on the rights on that religion?

If I understand you, if we do not allow nativity scenes and do not spend money on behalf of religion, that's infringement? That's a bonus for religion, not something that apparently you believe is deserved by religion. I disagree, and believe it to be a bonus that religion should not have. Your rights to believe in a religion are a private matter. You should be able to pray, go to church, and all your personal religious activities. As a private matter. Not a public matter. Those personal activities are your rights to religion, and those are the ones that can be infringed upon. Not the public establishment of religion. That is essentially a bonus, and cannot be infringed upon. When it crosses into public matters, then it begins to infringe on our rights. That is when it should stop.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6881|The Land of Scott Walker
As I said before ...

Stingray24 wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.
If you oppose a nativity displayed alongside a Santa and a wreath with a pentacle, then you better stop using money that says "In God We Trust" to be consistent ...
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7068|949

Stingray24 wrote:

As I said before ...

Stingray24 wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.
If you oppose a nativity displayed alongside a Santa and a wreath with a pentacle, then you better stop using money that says "In God We Trust" to be consistent ...
I don't oppose a nativity scene.  Just don't put it on City Hall grounds.  I am sure there are plenty of willing people in that 100K in Green Bay that would like it on their lawn, or even private business property.  Why does it have to be at City Hall?

I don't like that saying on our money either - but that is not going to stop me from using it, much like a display on city property would not stop me from using city services.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7172|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

As I said before ...

Stingray24 wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree that any religious display is endorsement and not simple acknowledgment and expression.  That is where we differ.
If you oppose a nativity displayed alongside a Santa and a wreath with a pentacle, then you better stop using money that says "In God We Trust" to be consistent ...
I don't care for that being there either, and it wasn't there originally, just as "under God" was not originally in the PoA; which happened to written by a monk no less.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6841|North Carolina
I'm atheist, and in all honesty....  I really don't give a shit if a religious display is on government property.  I even don't really care if tax money was used, because let's face it...  There are a lot worse ways our taxes are spent.  If they're going to waste our money one way or another, why not make a pretty display out of it instead of just greasing some corporate scumbag's palms?....
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7068|949

Turquoise wrote:

I'm atheist, and in all honesty....  I really don't give a shit if a religious display is on government property.  I even don't really care if tax money was used, because let's face it...  There are a lot worse ways our taxes are spent.  If they're going to waste our money one way or another, why not make a pretty display out of it instead of just greasing some corporate scumbag's palms?....
The only reason I care so much is because of certain responses contained herein and what I perceive to be a constant and very real attempt by the 'moral majority' to hijack the laws and culture of the U.S. to create a Christian state.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-12-27 15:18:32)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6841|North Carolina
For the longest time, I used to blast the religious right and their agenda.  Now, I'm going to try to stop doing it altogether.

You see, I realized something recently...  The separation of church and state is a very sound principle, but just because something's principled, it's doesn't mean people are going to follow it.  The religious right will continue to push their agenda, but I figure there's only one thing that can be done...

Push your own agenda.

My agenda isn't about pushing religion out of public life, but it does often conflict with the ideas of the same people we're both against.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6991

Stingray24 wrote:

http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/12825717.html

Even after the nativity scene at Green Bay City Hall comes down, the furor it created is likely to linger.  A lawsuit will be filed Wednesday, from the Freedom of Religion Foundation, which urges the separation of church and state. Twelve local residents are also joining the suit.  The lawsuit claims the city hall display depicting the birth of Jesus is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. It claims the city council president and the mayor allowed the display to provoke and marginalize those who would object.

It's called Church-State separation. Get over it - all civilized countries have it. And as another poster aptly put it - if they stuck on a muslim display you'd be stamping your feet so just get the fuck over it.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7068|949

rdx-fx wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'm atheist, and in all honesty....  I really don't give a shit if a religious display is on government property.  I even don't really care if tax money was used, because let's face it...  There are a lot worse ways our taxes are spent.  If they're going to waste our money one way or another, why not make a pretty display out of it instead of just greasing some corporate scumbag's palms?....
The only reason I care so much is because of certain responses contained herein and what I perceive to be a constant and very real attempt by the 'moral majority' to hijack the laws and culture of the U.S. to create a Christian state.
Meh..

Christian state?
No worries there.

Too much of a nihilist trend towards a religion of convenience and entropy

Christians and Atheists are the passengers in the back of the bus, arguing about when to signal for a stop.
Meanwhile, there's a fresh-faced Nihilist kid driving the bus off a cliff - so he can post it on YouTube & 4chan...
You have a point.  How about, "a faction of people with often convoluted morals using a percieved common interest (Christianity) to secure power over all"?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7017|SE London

Superslim wrote:

you are right, these lamers need a hobby. Even if you are not a Christian, the teachings of Jesus are unconditional love, understanding and respect. What is wrong with that? Are people actually offended by that?

PS  Christmas is the celebration of Christs birthday.

Stingray24 wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

... apparently 12 out of the whole city's population.

Edit: Green Bay's population is over 100,000.
the fundamental reason why i dislike most Christians.  thanks. 

if only the romans had stomped out christianity when the had the chance, while they were still a small minority.
Wake up!  It imposes NOTHING!  You don't have to convert because you looked at it!  And if you're serious about opposing Christmas I don't want to see a Christmas tree or presents in your house.
Christians need to get over the idea that Christmas is a Christian festival, it's just not, it's a hijacked pagan festival.

Bringing a Christmas tree in, that's pretty pagan. Sitting down to a huge meal in the middle of winter, pagan. Holly, mistletoe - pagan. Celebrating it on the winter solstice, pagan. The nativity scene, pagan. The list goes on and on....

I'll quite happily go on celebrating YULE.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-12-27 15:49:38)

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard