Well maybe you have issues with union regulation and accountability. Unions are a necessary part of the employer-employee relationship here in Europe, it's the way business is handled. You do have situations where the relationship is handled poorly, e.g. in France, but these are just examples of where corrective action needs to be taken. An employer will always do anything in its power to make employees do more for less. A common voice for employees acts as some form of protection against any instances of unfairness. If an employer changes your work practice so that you do more for the same amount of money then your company are effectively stealing from you. The common voice makes it more difficult for an employer to do such things. Likewise an unfair dismissal fought by a lone worker won't even pass management a second thought. With a common voice management can be drawn on the matter in a far more effective manner than if the dismissed fought his own corner.lowing wrote:
You have heard of such activities here in the US I assume??
You now know why I feel the way I do about unions.
I will not even check, but I will bet you can not put the name of an US union and the word corruption behind it, with out getting several hits.
What do you call it when your union tries to get the company to pay more for the same work or pay more for less work? Isn't that stealing as well?CameronPoe wrote:
Well maybe you have issues with union regulation and accountability. Unions are a necessary part of the employer-employee relationship here in Europe, it's the way business is handled. You do have situations where the relationship is handled poorly, e.g. in France, but these are just examples of where corrective action needs to be taken. An employer will always do anything in its power to make employees do more for less. A common voice for employees acts as some form of protection against any instances of unfairness. If an employer changes your work practice so that you do more for the same amount of money then your company are effectively stealing from you. The common voice makes it more difficult for an employer to do such things. Likewise an unfair dismissal fought by a lone worker won't even pass management a second thought. With a common voice management can be drawn on the matter in a far more effective manner than if the dismissed fought his own corner.lowing wrote:
You have heard of such activities here in the US I assume??
You now know why I feel the way I do about unions.
I will not even check, but I will bet you can not put the name of an US union and the word corruption behind it, with out getting several hits.
lowing. The world is about balance. You can't have everything one way. When employees feel that their annual increases in pay are not matching inflation they engage management, through the union, in negotiations. If management feel they are being unreasonable then they refuse. If the unions are not happy with this they take the matter to independent arbitration or take industrial action (last resort). Generally the matter is resolved by both the union and management conceding something - it's called compromise. If the union is being unreasonable then the management will just steadfastly refuse and the issue will come to a head. The company could threaten to up sticks and relocate meaning everyone loses their job. The strike is the unions 'ace card' and redundancies are the companies 'ace card'. lowing, life is full of these balancing acts - whether it's a budget, politics or a wage agreement. You have to get with the reality of life being one big ying and yang balancing act.lowing wrote:
What do you call it when your union tries to get the company to pay more for the same work or pay more for less work? Isn't that stealing as well?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-01 14:58:40)
YOu are forgetting those union members that might not agree with the union, you are forgetting to mention the stiff arm tactics, the death threats, the slashed tires the harrasment etc. against those members that do not fall in line and actually think for themselves and their personal best interests. IE like cross a picket line to maintain insurance for a sick family member etc.CameronPoe wrote:
lowing. The world is about balance. You can't have everything one way. When employees feel that their annual increases in pay are not matching inflation they engage management, through the union, in negotiations. If management feel they are being unreasonable then they refuse. If the unions are not happy with this they take the matter to independent arbitration or take industrial action (last resort). Generally the matter is resolved by both the union and management conceding something - it's called compromise. If the union is being unreasonable then the management will just steadfastly refuse and the issue will come to a head. The company could threaten to up sticks and relocate meaning everyone loses their job. The strike is the unions 'ace card' and redundancies are the companies 'ace card'. lowing, life is full of these balancing acts - whether it's a budget, politics or a wage agreement. You have to get with the reality of life being one big ying and yang balancing act.lowing wrote:
What do you call it when your union tries to get the company to pay more for the same work or pay more for less work? Isn't that stealing as well?
Unions are just as much a fuckin YING as big business is.
Stiff arm tactics and death threats are a criminal matter for the police. Nobody is under any obligation to join a union. Not one single solitary person. No such criminality has yet come out of any Irish union I'm quite sure. Perhaps elsewhere but not here.lowing wrote:
YOu are forgetting those union members that might not agree with the union, you are forgetting to mention the stiff arm tactics, the death threats, the slashed tires the harrasment etc. against those members that do not fall in line and actually think for themselves and their personal best interests. IE like cross a picket line to maintain insurance for a sick family member etc.
Unions are just as much a fuckin YING as big business is.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-01 15:10:22)
Welcome to the world of organized labor in the US Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
Stiff arm tactics and death threats are a criminal matter for the police. Nobody is under any obligation to join a union. Not one single solitary person. No such criminality has yet come out of any Irish union I'm quite sure. Perhaps elsewhere but not here.lowing wrote:
YOu are forgetting those union members that might not agree with the union, you are forgetting to mention the stiff arm tactics, the death threats, the slashed tires the harrasment etc. against those members that do not fall in line and actually think for themselves and their personal best interests. IE like cross a picket line to maintain insurance for a sick family member etc.
Unions are just as much a fuckin YING as big business is.
anyone care to deny anything I have said about organized labor in the US??
Beuller..............Beuller..................... anyone............anyone.................
figures
figures
So now you have changed the focus of your post from "Unions being shite" to "US unions being shite". Thats a convenient way to skirt the argument. Is this a recognition that unions arent necessarily a bad thing in principle, and that They seem to work well in other countries ( EU and Australia) just not in US yet.
It works well for some here also.Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
So now you have changed the focus of your post from "Unions being shite" to "US unions being shite". Thats a convenient way to skirt the argument. Is this a recognition that unions arent necessarily a bad thing in principle, and that They seem to work well in other countries ( EU and Australia) just not in US yet.
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When I left UPS two years ago the full time wage was over 26 an hour. I'm sure it's much more than that now. As this contract nears it's end the wages jump considerably (2008 is the start of a new one). RPS Fedex drivers also have to buy their routes and maintain their own trucks. That cuts deep into the take home pay. UPS drivers have never paid for their uniforms (excluding socks). Union dues at UPS are 1.5 x's your hourly rate. So I really don't see how 39 bucks a month would wash a $5 an hour difference. A company dominated by union employees "doing the bare minimum" has been leading the competition for over 100 years. The customers are happy, the company is extremely profitable, and the employees are content. That could be why Brown does twice the volume of Fedex as well. Their is plenty of motivation to work hard and excel. Ambitious employees will want to move into management. The union can not tell the company who to promote.IRONCHEF wrote:
Take UPS and FEDEX. Having been a FEDEX courier long ago in it's non-union environment, I had two UPS courier friends (unionized) and we compared notes. Their rate of pay was $22 an hour and mine about $17. But after paying their union, we were a wash. however, he had to buy his own uniforms and I got mine free. He and his fellow employees weren't happy..always dealing with union crap, complaining, doing the bare minimum, not having a say. I enjoyed my experience thoroughly at my location, people were free to negotiate things themselves, fedex valued us as non-union and treated us like employees..as contributors..not pimped ho's using them for money.
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Yup, I think that is a fair assessment of my position, it is the only thing I can do, since I have never experienced unionization in the EU so I am in no position to say what I am being told by those that have, is wrong.Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
So now you have changed the focus of your post from "Unions being shite" to "US unions being shite". Thats a convenient way to skirt the argument. Is this a recognition that unions arent necessarily a bad thing in principle, and that They seem to work well in other countries ( EU and Australia) just not in US yet.
I looked up Cams union briefly and can not find corruption accusations anywhere. So there ya go, I have conceded my position on unions in general and will stick to unions in the US.
Yes it does, if you are a worthless piece of shit who desperately needs a union to keep from getting fired, they are a God send.Kmarion wrote:
It works well for some here also.Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
So now you have changed the focus of your post from "Unions being shite" to "US unions being shite". Thats a convenient way to skirt the argument. Is this a recognition that unions arent necessarily a bad thing in principle, and that They seem to work well in other countries ( EU and Australia) just not in US yet.
Hmmmm, UPS employees are happy??? That is the first I have heard that oneKmarion wrote:
When I left UPS two years ago the full time wage was over 26 an hour. I'm sure it's much more than that now. As this contract nears it's end the wages jump considerably (2008 is the start of a new one). RPS Fedex drivers also have to buy their routes and maintain their own trucks. That cuts deep into the take home pay. UPS drivers have never paid for their uniforms (excluding socks). Union dues at UPS are 1.5 x's your hourly rate. So I really don't see how 39 bucks a month would wash a $5 an hour difference. A company dominated by union employees "doing the bare minimum" has been leading the competition for over 100 years. The customers are happy, the company is extremely profitable, and the employees are content. That could be why Brown does twice the volume of Fedex as well. Their is plenty of motivation to work hard and excel. Ambitious employees will want to move into management. The union can not tell the company who to promote.IRONCHEF wrote:
Take UPS and FEDEX. Having been a FEDEX courier long ago in it's non-union environment, I had two UPS courier friends (unionized) and we compared notes. Their rate of pay was $22 an hour and mine about $17. But after paying their union, we were a wash. however, he had to buy his own uniforms and I got mine free. He and his fellow employees weren't happy..always dealing with union crap, complaining, doing the bare minimum, not having a say. I enjoyed my experience thoroughly at my location, people were free to negotiate things themselves, fedex valued us as non-union and treated us like employees..as contributors..not pimped ho's using them for money.
CameronPoe wrote:
When employees feel that their annual increases in pay are not matching [edit]inflation sports cars, swimming pools, homes in Seattle and 60" HDTV's[/edit]
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-01-02 05:11:41)
lolunnamednewbie13 wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:
When employees feel that their annual increases in pay are not matching [edit]inflation sports cars, swimming pools, homes in Seattle and 60" HDTV's[/edit]
The national inflation rate gets published by economics institutes such as the ESRI. It's quite obvious in negotiations whether a union is taking the piss or whether its a genuine concern.
Lowing, I'm a member of a union and I, like most others, have a performance management program with targets and goals set out that I must meet to a) keep my job and b) make myself worthy of a raise/promotion. Unions don't exempt people from the necessity to work hard.lowing wrote:
Yes it does, if you are a worthless piece of shit who desperately needs a union to keep from getting fired, they are a God send.Kmarion wrote:
It works well for some here also.Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
So now you have changed the focus of your post from "Unions being shite" to "US unions being shite". Thats a convenient way to skirt the argument. Is this a recognition that unions arent necessarily a bad thing in principle, and that They seem to work well in other countries ( EU and Australia) just not in US yet.
Sorry Cam, I meant to add............"IN the US".CameronPoe wrote:
Lowing, I'm a member of a union and I, like most others, have a performance management program with targets and goals set out that I must meet to a) keep my job and b) make myself worthy of a raise/promotion. Unions don't exempt people from the necessity to work hard.lowing wrote:
Yes it does, if you are a worthless piece of shit who desperately needs a union to keep from getting fired, they are a God send.Kmarion wrote:
It works well for some here also.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/ … 21974.htmllowing wrote:
I looked up Cams union, Amicus, briefly and can not find corruption accusations anywhere. So there ya go, I have conceded my position on unions in general and will stick to unions in the US.
Malloy must go
That's a rather ropey article full of suppositions presented as fact but it is obviously possible. Corruption can touch everything man touches, from the parliament to the boardroom to the sports team. It doesn't seem, according to the article, that anyone was prosecuted which would indicate insufficient evidence to prove the theory.deeznutz1245 wrote:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/ … 21974.htmllowing wrote:
I looked up Cams union, Amicus, briefly and can not find corruption accusations anywhere. So there ya go, I have conceded my position on unions in general and will stick to unions in the US.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-02 06:04:54)
Oh well, back to the beginning, ALL unions suck.
I think you mean union corruption sucks. Similar to corporate fraud, worker exploitation, child labour or slavery.lowing wrote:
Oh well, back to the beginning, ALL unions suck.
Largest democracy in the world:
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-02 06:15:09)
lollowing wrote:
ALL unions suck.
If you f*ck with those kids' bricks, they will tear your innards out.CameronPoe wrote:
I think you mean union corruption sucks. Similar to corporate fraud, worker exploitation, child labour or slavery.lowing wrote:
Oh well, back to the beginning, ALL unions suck.
Largest democracy in the world:
I'd say most are.. not all of the time but most of the time. Employees will bitch about their jobs union or not. When I was waiting to go full time the wait was seven years. We had 35 year drivers in my center. The turnover rate for full timers at UPS is very low. It's not easy work but it is rewarding.lowing wrote:
Hmmmm, UPS employees are happy??? That is the first I have heard that oneKmarion wrote:
When I left UPS two years ago the full time wage was over 26 an hour. I'm sure it's much more than that now. As this contract nears it's end the wages jump considerably (2008 is the start of a new one). RPS Fedex drivers also have to buy their routes and maintain their own trucks. That cuts deep into the take home pay. UPS drivers have never paid for their uniforms (excluding socks). Union dues at UPS are 1.5 x's your hourly rate. So I really don't see how 39 bucks a month would wash a $5 an hour difference. A company dominated by union employees "doing the bare minimum" has been leading the competition for over 100 years. The customers are happy, the company is extremely profitable, and the employees are content. That could be why Brown does twice the volume of Fedex as well. Their is plenty of motivation to work hard and excel. Ambitious employees will want to move into management. The union can not tell the company who to promote.IRONCHEF wrote:
Take UPS and FEDEX. Having been a FEDEX courier long ago in it's non-union environment, I had two UPS courier friends (unionized) and we compared notes. Their rate of pay was $22 an hour and mine about $17. But after paying their union, we were a wash. however, he had to buy his own uniforms and I got mine free. He and his fellow employees weren't happy..always dealing with union crap, complaining, doing the bare minimum, not having a say. I enjoyed my experience thoroughly at my location, people were free to negotiate things themselves, fedex valued us as non-union and treated us like employees..as contributors..not pimped ho's using them for money.
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