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2008-01-11 01:11:20
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6797|Vancouver
ST. LOUIS (AP) -- A rural school district's long-standing practice of allowing the distribution of Bibles to grade school students is unconstitutional, a federal judge has ruled.

An attorney for the southeastern Missouri school district said Wednesday he will appeal the judge's injunction against the practice.

For more than three decades, the South Iron School District in Annapolis, 120 miles southwest of St. Louis in the heart of the Bible Belt, allowed representatives of Gideons International to give away Bibles in fifth-grade classrooms.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed suit two years ago on behalf of four sets of parents. In August, a three-judge panel of the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a temporary injunction against the practice.

The district altered its policy, saying the Gideons and others were still welcome to distribute Bibles or other literature before or after school or during lunch break, but not in classrooms.

On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Catherine Perry ruled both practices were illegal and granted a permanent injunction.

The purpose of both practices ''is the promotion of Christianity by distributing Bibles to elementary school students,'' Perry wrote. ''The policy has the principle or primary effect of advancing religion by conveying a message of endorsement to elementary school children.''

Mathew Staver, president of Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based law group that represented the school district, said he would appeal.

''I think the current policy creates an open forum that allows secular as well as religious persons or groups to access the forum to distribute information,'' Staver said. ''The court has clearly misread the First Amendment and the cases regarding free speech.''

The parents who sued are Christian but believe religious beliefs should be taught in the home, not school, said Anthony Rothert, legal director of the ACLU of Eastern Missouri.

The South Iron district has about 500 students in the grade school and South Iron High School.

Superintendent Brad Crocker was out of the office Wednesday and did not respond to a call seeking comment.

Gideons International, based in Nashville, Tenn., distributes Bibles in more than 80 languages and 180 countries, according to its Web site. A spokesman did not return a phone call seeking comment.

Source
2008-01-11 01:51:23
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6985|CH/BR - in UK

I'm not exactly sure about this: was this distribution upon request, or forcing 5th graders to take a bible home? Because if it was the latter, I think this was correct. However, if it was the former, I think there has been a grave error in the US justice system once again.

-konfusion
2008-01-11 02:08:44
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7106|UK
lol

I got a bible at school once, no idea what the tools in charge were doing.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2008-01-11 02:11:05
Ben0
The Last Gunslinger
+38|6809|Southampton
Yea, we got bibles at about age 13/14. There was a skip they were using to clear some crap outta a classroom on the playground- the skip was full by the end of school. :s

Last edited by Ben0 (2008-01-11 02:11:13)

2008-01-11 05:38:58
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida

konfusion wrote:

I'm not exactly sure about this: was this distribution upon request, or forcing 5th graders to take a bible home? Because if it was the latter, I think this was correct. However, if it was the former, I think there has been a grave error in the US justice system once again.

-konfusion
Agree.
2008-01-11 05:50:45
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

konfusion wrote:

I'm not exactly sure about this: was this distribution upon request, or forcing 5th graders to take a bible home? Because if it was the latter, I think this was correct. However, if it was the former, I think there has been a grave error in the US justice system once again.

-konfusion
Agree.
The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs?  If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed.  There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2008-01-11 05:51:45)

2008-01-11 06:45:29
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7171|Salt Lake City

They shouldn't be doing it at all.  As noted in the article, and rightly so, they are Christians but they as parents will provide that for their children.  Passing out the Bible at school is the wrong thing to do, at any time, period.  The school property should not be used to promote any religion.  It is a place of education to learn math, science, English, etc.  Bibles can be distributed at churches on Sunday, or from the back of a van from any location if some one wants them.  This is a direct attempt to influence children when they are still the most impressionable.
2008-01-11 06:53:38
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|7061|Sea to globally-cooled sea

SenorToenails wrote:

The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs?
Besides the fact that they're in the middle of the Bible Belt?

I agree with Konfusion, that was my initial thought as well.

If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed.  There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.
You have a point...but right now Schools are really shoving secularism down pupils' throats, and there is no argument against that.  I think that we have to be balanced.

I went to a public High School.  We did a year on World Cultures, and a lot of that was on Eastern Religions.  And for A.P. English we had to read parts of the New and Old Testaments.  I don't think that it's a bad thing!  I think everything should be balanced.

Looking at the big picture: I think that banning the bible sends a very bad message.  The bible itself is not a bad book, and I don't think we should give children the impression that it's taboo.
2008-01-11 06:54:31
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
2008-01-11 08:15:01
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

G3|Genius wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs?
Besides the fact that they're in the middle of the Bible Belt?

I agree with Konfusion, that was my initial thought as well.

If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed.  There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.
You have a point...but right now Schools are really shoving secularism down pupils' throats, and there is no argument against that.  I think that we have to be balanced.

I went to a public High School.  We did a year on World Cultures, and a lot of that was on Eastern Religions.  And for A.P. English we had to read parts of the New and Old Testaments.  I don't think that it's a bad thing!  I think everything should be balanced.

Looking at the big picture: I think that banning the bible sends a very bad message.  The bible itself is not a bad book, and I don't think we should give children the impression that it's taboo.
It doesn't matter where the school is.  Imagine the outcry if some school offered only books on Wicca or Satanism upon request?  What makes Christianity any more acceptable to push? 

And I also went a public high school.  We studied multiple religions, including Christianity, but there is no large push for "secularism" unless you mean that there is no school sponsored religion.  I didn't have any teachers denounce any religion in any way.  The bible is without a doubt a very important piece of literature that has affected history in a very profound way in the last 2000 years.  When studied as a piece of literature and history, and not from a religious standpoint, there shouldn't be a problem with reading it or parts of it in literature class.  Except, they weren't distributing bibles in that context.  The school was allowing Gideons International, an evangelical Christian organization, to distribute bibles.  It was done for the sole purpose of furthering Christianity.  That should not be allowed in a public school.

Question:
How are schools "shoving secularism down pupils' throats"?  I honestly don't see that happening.
2008-01-11 08:17:17
adam1503
Member
+85|6823|Manchester, UK

CameronPoe wrote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Doesnt that just mean they cant outlaw the act of establishing a new religion?
2008-01-11 08:19:12
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990

adam1503 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Doesnt that just mean they cant outlaw the act of establishing a new religion?
They can't make rules that establish a new religion either, and public schools are government institutions. It's an element of the US constitution that I sorely wish we had here in Ireland.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-11 08:19:48)

2008-01-11 08:20:38
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida

SenorToenails wrote:

Question:
How are schools "shoving secularism down pupils' throats"?  I honestly don't see that happening.
Teachers that constantly tell the students that religion is wrong? Students expelled for bringing a bible to school? Schools not allowed to teach religion at all? Schools not allowed to hand out bibles to people who willingly want them because its "endorsing" a religion. How do you not see it happening? With a government of politically correct fucktards who are worried about insulting other religions so they ban all of them from being mentioned nothing will be done about it until its too late.

Last edited by Dragonclaw (2008-01-11 08:22:21)

2008-01-11 08:22:00
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

adam1503 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Doesnt that just mean they cant outlaw the act of establishing a new religion?
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion.

Read more here.
2008-01-11 08:24:30
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida
Heres something interesting.

The common claim that the United States Constitution requires the separation of church and state is a blatant lie. The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceable to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The founders of the United States came to North America to escape religious persecution. They were primarily of different Christian denomination that had seen European states restrict the religion to only one denomination in their region. The founding fathers of the Constitution and the early government wanted all denomination to be able to worship freely. One of the actions of the first Congress was to approve the publication by the Government of 20,000 Bibles for distribution to the schools. The Bible was the principal text book in the schools of the United States immediately after becoming independent for the Britain.

We see the opinion of the founding fathers concerning religion throughout the land. They posted the Ten Commandments of the Bible over government buildings, held prayers at the opening of government meetings, and prayed to God in the name of Jesus Christ. Forbidding Christians to pray in school, teach creation, carry a Bible to school, read the Bible in school or pray at a gathering is a violation of the Constitution as intended by the founding fathers.
2008-01-11 08:26:38
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Question:
How are schools "shoving secularism down pupils' throats"?  I honestly don't see that happening.
Teachers that constantly tell the students that religion is wrong? Students expelled for bringing a bible to school? Schools not allowed to teach religion at all? Schools not allowed to hand out bibles to people who willingly want them because its "endorsing" a religion. How do you not see it happening?
I had friends who brought bibles to school.  None got expelled, suspended, or even a talking to.  I never had a teacher tell me religion was wrong.  Ever.  Where did any of this happen?  Or more importantly, where does it happen repeatedly?

Public schools should not teach religion any further than from a cultural standpoint.  The school should not be handing out bibles to those who want them.  I do not see that as forcing secularism.

If you want a religious education, either go to sunday school or private school.
2008-01-11 08:28:41
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida

SenorToenails wrote:

Dragonclaw wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Question:
How are schools "shoving secularism down pupils' throats"?  I honestly don't see that happening.
Teachers that constantly tell the students that religion is wrong? Students expelled for bringing a bible to school? Schools not allowed to teach religion at all? Schools not allowed to hand out bibles to people who willingly want them because its "endorsing" a religion. How do you not see it happening?
I had friends who brought bibles to school.  None got expelled, suspended, or even a talking to.  I never had a teacher tell me religion was wrong.  Ever.  Where did any of this happen?  Or more importantly, where does it happen repeatedly?

Public schools should not teach religion any further than from a cultural standpoint.  The school should not be handing out bibles to those who want them.  I do not see that as forcing secularism.

If you want a religious education, either go to sunday school or private school.
It probably happens in other states or schools more than in yours. But many schools actually do suspend students who bring bibles to school and have teachers who constantly say "religion is wrong"
2008-01-11 08:30:55
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

Heres something interesting.

The common claim that the United States Constitution requires the separation of church and state is a blatant lie. The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceable to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The founders of the United States came to North America to escape religious persecution. They were primarily of different Christian denomination that had seen European states restrict the religion to only one denomination in their region. The founding fathers of the Constitution and the early government wanted all denomination to be able to worship freely. One of the actions of the first Congress was to approve the publication by the Government of 20,000 Bibles for distribution to the schools. The Bible was the principal text book in the schools of the United States immediately after becoming independent for the Britain.

We see the opinion of the founding fathers concerning religion throughout the land. They posted the Ten Commandments of the Bible over government buildings, held prayers at the opening of government meetings, and prayed to God in the name of Jesus Christ. Forbidding Christians to pray in school, teach creation, carry a Bible to school, read the Bible in school or pray at a gathering is a violation of the Constitution as intended by the founding fathers.
It's in the interpretation of that where it lies.  200+ years of precedent show that the government does not have the right or duty to promote any religion.  That includes state-run schools. 

If you want your kids to learn creation, send them to a private school.  Or to church group or whatever is available at your local church.  The government has no obligation to teach that.  And I still don't know where you are getting this idea that people can't pray or carry a bible to school.  No one can force you to not say grace before lunch or read a bible during study hall.  The school is not allowed to sponsor such activity.
2008-01-11 08:32:41
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

It probably happens in other states or schools more than in yours. But many schools actually do suspend students who bring bibles to school and have teachers who constantly say "religion is wrong"
Do you have any proof of that?  Credible proof?  Saying "it probably happens" is just not good enough.
2008-01-11 08:34:59
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6985|CH/BR - in UK

SenorToenails wrote:

Dragonclaw wrote:

It probably happens in other states or schools more than in yours. But many schools actually do suspend students who bring bibles to school and have teachers who constantly say "religion is wrong"
Do you have any proof of that?  Credible proof?  Saying "it probably happens" is just not good enough.
I have never heard of anything like that - not bibles anyways. Just extreme bigotry with Muslims.

-konfusion
2008-01-11 08:48:48
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida

SenorToenails wrote:

Dragonclaw wrote:

It probably happens in other states or schools more than in yours. But many schools actually do suspend students who bring bibles to school and have teachers who constantly say "religion is wrong"
Do you have any proof of that?  Credible proof?  Saying "it probably happens" is just not good enough.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/school_houston.html

http://www.citizenlink.org/CLNews/A000004058.cfm

I read about it happening somewhere else as well, cant seem to find the link though. If I find it Ill post it here.

At least this doesnt happen everywhere, but in the several places it has happened its rather fucked up. At the going rate of things I wouldnt be surprised if this starts becoming more and more common. I agree that religion shouldnt be forced on people in schools, but just handing out bibles shouldnt cause any uproar.

Last edited by Dragonclaw (2008-01-11 08:59:25)

2008-01-11 08:58:57
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Dragonclaw wrote:

It probably happens in other states or schools more than in yours. But many schools actually do suspend students who bring bibles to school and have teachers who constantly say "religion is wrong"
Do you have any proof of that?  Credible proof?  Saying "it probably happens" is just not good enough.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/school_houston.html
OK.  There is one place.  One place that violated the constitutional right of free expression and practice of religion (assuming that what was alleged actually happened), and it was outright wrong.  But one incident hardly shows a trend.

And on that same webpage, there is this:

Federal Guidelines for Religious Expression in Public Schools wrote:

A synopsis of the guidelines:

Students have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity.

Local school authorities have "substantial discretion" to impose rules of order but may not structure the rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.

Students may attempt to persuade peers about religious topics as they would any other topics, but schools should stop such speech that constitutes harassment.

Students may participate in before- or after-school events with religious content, such as "see-you-at-the-flagpole" gatherings, on the same terms they can participate in other noncurricular activities on school premises.

Teachers and administrators are prohibited from either encouraging or discouraging religious activity and from participating in such activity with students.

Public schools may not provide religious instruction but may teach about religion.

Students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork and other written and oral assignments. The work should be judged by ordinary academic standards and against other "legitimate pedagogical concerns." Students may distribute religious literature on the same terms other literature unrelated to curriculum can be distributed.

Schools have "substantial discretion" to excuse students from lessons objectionable on religious or other conscientious grounds. But students generally don't have a federal right to be excused from lessons inconsistent with religious beliefs or practices.

Schools may actively teach civic values and morals, even if some of those values also happen to be held by religions.

Students may display religious messages on clothing to the same extent they may display other comparable messages.
If all schools operate on that, then is it still 'forcing' secularism?
2008-01-11 09:02:29
Dragonclaw
Member
+186|6740|Florida

SenorToenails wrote:

Dragonclaw wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Do you have any proof of that?  Credible proof?  Saying "it probably happens" is just not good enough.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/school_houston.html
OK.  There is one place.  One place that violated the constitutional right of free expression and practice of religion (assuming that what was alleged actually happened), and it was outright wrong.  But one incident hardly shows a trend.

And on that same webpage, there is this:

Federal Guidelines for Religious Expression in Public Schools wrote:

A synopsis of the guidelines:

Students have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity.

Local school authorities have "substantial discretion" to impose rules of order but may not structure the rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.

Students may attempt to persuade peers about religious topics as they would any other topics, but schools should stop such speech that constitutes harassment.

Students may participate in before- or after-school events with religious content, such as "see-you-at-the-flagpole" gatherings, on the same terms they can participate in other noncurricular activities on school premises.

Teachers and administrators are prohibited from either encouraging or discouraging religious activity and from participating in such activity with students.

Public schools may not provide religious instruction but may teach about religion.

Students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork and other written and oral assignments. The work should be judged by ordinary academic standards and against other "legitimate pedagogical concerns." Students may distribute religious literature on the same terms other literature unrelated to curriculum can be distributed.

Schools have "substantial discretion" to excuse students from lessons objectionable on religious or other conscientious grounds. But students generally don't have a federal right to be excused from lessons inconsistent with religious beliefs or practices.

Schools may actively teach civic values and morals, even if some of those values also happen to be held by religions.

Students may display religious messages on clothing to the same extent they may display other comparable messages.
If all schools operate on that, then is it still 'forcing' secularism?
If all the schools actually followed that then it wouldnt be forcing secularism. While I wouldnt doubt that plenty of schools follow that there have been plenty of schools with teachers who blatantly oppose religion and teach that everyone should do the same.

Last edited by Dragonclaw (2008-01-11 09:03:24)

2008-01-11 09:15:35
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6565|North Tonawanda, NY

Dragonclaw wrote:

If all the schools actually followed that then it wouldnt be forcing secularism. While I wouldnt doubt that plenty of schools follow that there have been plenty of schools with teachers who blatantly oppose religion and teach that everyone should do the same.

Dragonclaw wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Question:
How are schools "shoving secularism down pupils' throats"?  I honestly don't see that happening.
Teachers that constantly tell the students that religion is wrong? Students expelled for bringing a bible to school? Schools not allowed to teach religion at all? Schools not allowed to hand out bibles to people who willingly want them because its "endorsing" a religion. How do you not see it happening?
Teachers and administrators are prohibited from either encouraging or discouraging religious activity and from participating in such activity with students.

School administrators who provide bibles are in violation of that.  But you say that this is part of how schools force secularism.

Public schools may not provide religious instruction but may teach about religion.

The school is not allowed to teach religion any further than teaching about it.  Yet you claimed that it another way that students are being forced into secularism.

You already claim that the Federal Guidelines 'force' secularism.

If you can find me an example where a US school has told students that religion was wrong and expelled them for carrying bibles consistently and whose actions were supported by the courts, then you might be on to something. 

But you won't find that.  The evidence simply does not exist.
2008-01-11 11:41:43
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6658|Escea

I remember them handing out bibles once, friggin lethal in the wrong hands

 

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