If I got one, I would have burned it.
There are multiple alternatives for children to get religious instruction. When I don't have kids but pay for the children of others to go to school, I want to know that they are being taught what will get them into college, and provide them with the best possible chance at having a good job, a good life, and a good retirement.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I wish the Qu'ran was handed out at my school - I would probably have read a lot more of it than I have. Instead, I got daily prayer and a religious studies class that covered only Judaism and Christianity. I went to a private Catholic school thoughAgent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
So other than Mormons within the forums, who would have been offended the Book of Mormon being handed out. And the first person to say that they wouldn't be offended at the Koran being handed out is a flat out lier. School is for education, not religious materials distribution or anything else.
If you want your kids to receive religious instruction as part of their education, YOU should pay to send them to a private school.
Regardless of what others have posted, kids don't get expelled for bringing a Bible to school. They are allowed to bring them to school, and can even read them in school during their breaks, lunch, or other non-classroom times. However, the school is not allowed to participate with religion or the distribution of religious material....PERIOD!
Let's also not forget the main reason for this story. It's not that the parents aren't religious, it's just that they want to make sure their version of religion, and their belief system is what is handed down to their kids. That is their right, and I fully support it. Religion has three places in this world: 1) at home 2) in church 3) in private religious schools.
In front of them...=NHB=Shadow wrote:
If I got one, I would have burned it.
Damn why didn't I think of doing that ? I'm probably gonna try and get some of my mates together, and do a mass gideon bible burning now <evil grin>
The School Board "... allowed representatives of Gideons International to give away Bibles..."SenorToenails wrote:
Exactly. The bible can (and should) be studied. And it ought to be available in the school library upon request, where all the rest of those books are.topal63 wrote:
Absent instruction, proselytizing or attempts at indoctrination - it actually is - what it is - a book.IRONCHEF wrote:
I would have like to receive a bible when i was in school, even though it's violating church and state separation doctrine.
An important book by anyone's standard (or rather to Western Civilization). Where did the literary expression "apple of my eye" come from? The Bible of course... so IMO it doesn't matter if you do; or don't; believe - it is a very important work of literature.
They should hand that book (the Bible) out along with others (like):
Huck. Finn
Paradise Lost
Moby Dick
Catcher in Rye
Hamlet
The Odyssey
... and so forth, etc, etc, etc.
Look, I don't have a problem with that (the School board is not doing it, its another agency assuming altruism as a motive). IMO someone is giving away a free-book, if any thing Barnes & Noble should be encouraged to do the same.
Then maybe you'll get one from this list given out, to the illiterate hordes, as well:
Huck. Finn
Paradise Lost
Moby Dick
Catcher in Rye
Hamlet
The Odyssey
War & Peace
The Count of Monte Cristo
Crime & Punishment
The Stranger
... and so forth, etc, etc, etc.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-11 17:47:39)
mcgid1 wrote:
I agree 100%, however, it's not the school handing out the books, it's a third party. If it was the school directly distributing the books, then I could see how this could be a problem, but with an outside group distributing it and not preaching about it, there shouldn't be an issue. During my time in public schools I was given a variety of literature from third parties during class on a whole range of topics, some harmless, some controversial. In this case, to ban a third party from distributing the Bible would be a case of treating it different from other texts.SenorToenails wrote:
When this book is treated differently than other texts, then it becomes a problem. It's not like the school was handing out copies of "The Count of Monte Cristo" or "War and Peace" upon request.mcgid1 wrote:
If they had been preaching along with handing out the Bibles, that would be one thing; but just handing out the Bibles isn't unconstitutional. With out the preaching, the Bible is in fact a book, and one that should be studied if for nothing else than for the effect that it has had on Western society, and the many literary works that have either been influenced by it or make reference to it.
As for schools suppressing religion, it seems to be more of a case of individuals, rather than the schools and school districts as a whole. Back in high school, I used to wear a cross on a chain until one of the school's AP's told me to either remove it or be suspended. This is the same school where I spent half of my senior year studying the bible because of it's relationship to major events in Europe's history as well as it's literary influences.
Judging from this, it was the Gideon's International members handing out the Bibles, not the faculty. It isn't 100% clear, but this seems to be the way it was.article wrote:
allowed representatives of Gideons International to give away Bibles in fifth-grade classrooms.
Alright. I searched around a little, and found this.topal63 wrote:
The School Board "... allowed representatives of Gideons International to give away Bibles..."
Look, I don't have a problem with that (the School board is not doing it, its another agency assuming altruism as a motive).
This makes it look like the school allowed the Gideons to distribute bibles during class time, and after a complaint, the superintendent changed that policy and barred the Gideons from classroom access. The school board then overruled the superintendent, and let the Gideons directly access the children again during class time, and that is the source of the lawsuit.ACLU wrote:
The ACLU of Eastern Missouri filed a complaint on behalf of two parents with children in the South Iron schools. We challenged the school district’s long-standing practice of allowing Gideons International to come into the fifth grade classrooms during mandatory class time to distribute bibles to the children.
In 2005, the Superintendent reversed the policy and indicated he would no longer allow the Gideons access to fifth-grade classrooms. Against the advice of the school attorney, the school’s insurance provider, the ACLU of Eastern Missouri, and others, the School Board vote 4-3 to overrule the superintendent and mandate that the Gideons be provided access to the children. On October 4, 2005, the Gideons were allowed to come and distribute bibles to fifth-graders during class. Liberty Counsel, a right-wing religious group from Florida, is representing the defendants.
On September 5, 2006, federal district Judge Catherine Perry issued a preliminary injunction prohibiting the distribution of Bibles in the elementary school. In strong language, the judge observed that the School Board’s only purpose appeared to be the promotion of Christianity to elementary school children. The school district appealed the judge’s decision.
Here is the background from the legal brief that was filed:
The school board knew what it was doing was wrong, but they just didn't care. Maybe next time they will listen to the advice of their lawyer and insurance company, instead of pleasing the local ministers and Gideons.The preliminary injunction was issued after an expedited briefing and hearing schedule. The agreed record consists of plaintiffs' verified complaint, the minutes of various school board meetings, and the District's written policy entitled “Distribution of Materials and Literature to Students” which it adopted ten days before the preliminary injunction hearing. The full text of that policy is reproduced in Appendix
A to this opinion.
In early 2005, District Superintendent M. Homer Lewis decided to discontinue the District's practice of allowing representatives of Gideons International to distribute Bibles to fifth grade students of the South Iron Elementary School in their classrooms during instructional time. Members of the Ministerial Alliance asked the Board of Education to reconsider this decision. At the Board's February 2005 meeting, Superintendent Lewis told the Board members that “four legal sources” including the school's attorney advised that the practice be discontinued. Lewis stated that if the Board wanted to allow the distribution of Bibles at school, an “open forum” policy could be adopted. The Board voted 4-3 “to pretend this meeting never happened, and to continue to allow the Gideons to distribute Bibles as we have done in the past.” However, when the ACLU wrote protesting this decision, the Board voted at its March meeting “to delay the Gideons distribution of Bibles” until the school attorney “gives us his determinations.”
At the September Board meeting, a representative of the Gideons and two local ministers asked whether the Board would allow the distribution of Gideons Bibles. Superintendent Lewis read letters from the school attorney, the District’s insurer, and the ACLU warning that the practice was illegal and could jeopardize the District’s insurance coverage. A minister asked whether the Gideons could give Bibles to the children for them to distribute. The Gideons representative advised that Gideons Bibles could not be distributed unless members of the Gideons were present. The Board then voted 4-3 “to allow the Gideons to come in and distribute Bibles to the 5th graders.” The school attorney wrote the Board urging it to reconsider this decision. Superintendent Lewis resigned later that month, citing this issue. The Board nonetheless declined to reconsider the issue at its October 3, 2005, meeting. On the afternoon of October 4, a school day, two representatives of the Gideons came to the elementary school and distributed Gideons Bibles to fifth graders. The school principal accompanied the Gideons to the two fifth grade classrooms and observed the distribution.
Plaintiffs, parents of children who attended or will attend fifth grade in the District, filed this suit in February 2006 alleging a violation of the Establishment Clause and seeking declaratory and injunctive relief preventing the District “from further endorsement of religion.” At the March 2006 Board meeting, the Board's President announced, “there was not one board member who is opposed to Bibles being placed in the school.” At the April 2006 meeting, the Board defeated, by a 3-3-1 vote, a motion “to rescind the motion allowing the Gideons to distribute Bibles and adopt a new policy to allow the students to distribute the Bibles.” At the May meeting, the attorney for the District's insurer advised the Board that the insurer would not defend the lawsuit because allowing the Gideons to distribute Bibles “during instructional time” is an intentional violation of the Establishment Clause and the Missouri Constitution.
I still don't have a problem with it... so what!
Class time? From one day of school? Are you kidding me? I am an atheist and I can't see the harm... it is still a book. Kids don't need indoctrination in the classroom... but this is not that.
Indoctrination requires instruction (active evangelical proselytizing), the imposition of some kind of psychological domination/domination-ploy; or an appeal to trust; etc. That is not going here.
PS: Having a book in a Library (simply being available) does not actively encourage the reading or studying of it.
IMO, this (part) is were Gideon went down the wrong path:
Class time? From one day of school? Are you kidding me? I am an atheist and I can't see the harm... it is still a book. Kids don't need indoctrination in the classroom... but this is not that.
Indoctrination requires instruction (active evangelical proselytizing), the imposition of some kind of psychological domination/domination-ploy; or an appeal to trust; etc. That is not going here.
PS: Having a book in a Library (simply being available) does not actively encourage the reading or studying of it.
IMO, this (part) is were Gideon went down the wrong path:
If they simply had given the School Board Books (the Bible), then the School could have a book day; or the like; and it would be just one of those available to pick-up for free. If the kids didn't want to take one; or browse one; or whatever; that would be the kids choice - free from any kind of imposing pressure.... A minister asked whether the Gideons could give Bibles to the children for them to distribute. The Gideons representative advised that Gideons Bibles could not be distributed unless members of the Gideons were present...
Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-11 18:34:13)
And thus the reason that it is not allowed. If they distributed materials to the students like any other third party organization, they probably would not have had this problem. The school made exceptions that were illegal for a particular religious organization.topal63 wrote:
I still don't have a problem with it... so what!
Class time? From one day of school? Are you kidding me? I am an atheist and I can't see the harm... it is still a book. Kids don't need indoctrination in the classroom... but this is not that.
Indoctrination requires instruction (active evangelical proselytizing), the imposition of some kind of psychological domination/domination-ploy; or an appeal to trust; etc. That is not going here.
PS: Having a book in a Library (simply being available) does not actively encourage the reading or studying of it.
IMO, this (part) is were Gideon went down the wrong path:If they simply had given the School Board Books (the Bible), then the School could have a book day; or the like; and it would be just one of those available to pick-up for free.... A minister asked whether the Gideons could give Bibles to the children for them to distribute. The Gideons representative advised that Gideons Bibles could not be distributed unless members of the Gideons were present...
Even if the Gideons had provided bibles for the school to distribute, that still would have been illegal, since the school would be distributing religious material, and is not within federal guidelines. If the school did not force the distribution during class time, and allowed this third party to give them out during an appropriate time, then there would be no problem.
The point of the establishment clause is not to prevent 'indoctrination', but to prevent a state sponsored religion, even if that sponsorship is de facto.
Well actually, I think handing out Bibles may be a good learning experience. There's not SparkNotes on it, is there?
Last edited by DesertFox- (2008-01-11 19:01:19)
There is!DesertFox- wrote:
Well actually, I think handing out Bibles may be a good learning experience. There's not SparkNotes on it, is there?
The Old Testament
The New Testament
:-p
Why are people defending this school? This is de facto endorsement of religion, and while people claim it to be a perfectly acceptable practice as a result of the bibles being handed out by third parties, these people were invited in. This school was circumventing the constitution by proxy, and as far as I can tell, judicial history shows that going against any legislation by proxy is just as bad as doing it yourself.
They knew that it was unconstitutional, and despite legal advice from insurers and civil rights movements, they chose to reinstate the distribution, and overrule the superintendent. When a school board rules on whether or not bibles can be distributed to children during class, it seems to me like there's no way to argue that they aren't actively endorsing it.
These people are perfectly welcome to open youth centres and have community projects to attract kids, should they want to. Preying on them at school, however, with the full endorsement of the faculty, in an environment where the kids will typically believe whatever they're being taught, that's just very disgusting, and these people know that very well.
They knew that it was unconstitutional, and despite legal advice from insurers and civil rights movements, they chose to reinstate the distribution, and overrule the superintendent. When a school board rules on whether or not bibles can be distributed to children during class, it seems to me like there's no way to argue that they aren't actively endorsing it.
These people are perfectly welcome to open youth centres and have community projects to attract kids, should they want to. Preying on them at school, however, with the full endorsement of the faculty, in an environment where the kids will typically believe whatever they're being taught, that's just very disgusting, and these people know that very well.
I don't see why allowing a group to give away bibles on government property should be unconstitutional, unless the school forbid other groups from distributing books (like Toras, Korans, or dictionaries).
It is perfectly acceptable precisely because a 3rd part distributed the Bibles and also because any other religious or non-religious organization is free to do that same. Hence no establishment. Preying? Come on, being a bit dramatic aren't we? The children might obey the 10 commandments ... horror of horrors.mikkel wrote:
Why are people defending this school? This is de facto endorsement of religion, and while people claim it to be a perfectly acceptable practice as a result of the bibles being handed out by third parties, these people were invited in ... Preying on them at school, however, with the full endorsement of the faculty, in an environment where the kids will typically believe whatever they're being taught, that's just very disgusting, and these people know that very well.
Oh, so if this was the Qur'an, you'd be sayingStingray24 wrote:
It is perfectly acceptable precisely because a 3rd part distributed the Bibles and also because any other religious or non-religious organization is free to do that same. Hence no establishment. Preying? Come on, being a bit dramatic aren't we? The children might obey the 10 commandments ... horror of horrors.mikkel wrote:
Why are people defending this school? This is de facto endorsement of religion, and while people claim it to be a perfectly acceptable practice as a result of the bibles being handed out by third parties, these people were invited in ... Preying on them at school, however, with the full endorsement of the faculty, in an environment where the kids will typically believe whatever they're being taught, that's just very disgusting, and these people know that very well.
Yes, it's preying. These people know full well that religion is a personal thing, and when you're exposing impressionable youth to it in a setting that's meant to teach them, and meant for them to trust, you're preying on them, and it's completely distasteful.Preying? Come on, being a bit dramatic aren't we? The children might obey the call to kill whoever oppresses you ... horror of horrors.
It's not really relevant that others could conceivably hand out religious texts of other faiths. Schools are typically required to present students with all relevant, major theories when a subject is contended, and this includes religion. They need to either provide for everyone or not provide at all. It's not like these people can't hand out bibles elsewhere.
The school made exceptions for them to come in and give bibles. Exceptions that were in violation of the establishment clause.RAIMIUS wrote:
I don't see why allowing a group to give away bibles on government property should be unconstitutional, unless the school forbid other groups from distributing books (like Toras, Korans, or dictionaries).
This Establishment Clause debate is making me see some comparisons here between this issue and some Supreme Court cases back in the day about certain people who got arrested for belonging to subversive groups/supporting ideologies/handing out fliers. I think we're getting close to the time where the same standards that are applied in those instances can be used here.
Any particular court cases?DesertFox- wrote:
This Establishment Clause debate is making me see some comparisons here between this issue and some Supreme Court cases back in the day about certain people who got arrested for belonging to subversive groups/supporting ideologies/handing out fliers. I think we're getting close to the time where the same standards that are applied in those instances can be used here.
It's just a book. They aren't preaching or forcing them to convert. More people should read the major religious books out there. If anything it will help you better understand the world.
No more can be said.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
It's just a book. They aren't preaching or forcing them to convert. More people should read the major religious books out there. If anything it will help you better understand the world.
What if it was the The Satanic Bible.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
It's just a book. They aren't preaching or forcing them to convert. More people should read the major religious books out there. If anything it will help you better understand the world.
They aren't converting them or anything, so what's the harm?
It's a good thing they weren't banning the distribution of Qurans. There might have been a bombing as a result.
The Bible Is Nothing More Than A Book Of Fairy Tales Written By People With Good Imagination.
The reason they don't have Korans or Torahs is because neither of those churches actively put them there. I have never received a bible from school, but we get distributed colored papers with different adds on them all the time. The bibles being passed out are no different. The government is not showing favoritism by allowing the bibles to be distributed, as it was funded by the christian church, and there is nothing wrong with that.SenorToenails wrote:
The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs? If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed. There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.Dragonclaw wrote:
Agree.konfusion wrote:
I'm not exactly sure about this: was this distribution upon request, or forcing 5th graders to take a bible home? Because if it was the latter, I think this was correct. However, if it was the former, I think there has been a grave error in the US justice system once again.
-konfusion
Last edited by Deadmonkiefart (2008-01-12 20:13:28)
Read the rest of my posts, and tell me that the school did no wrong. They made illegal exceptions for a particular religious group. And they knew it, their lawyer and insurance company told them.Deadmonkiefart wrote:
The reason they don't have Korans or Torahs is because neither of those churches actively put them there. I have never received a bible from school, but we get distributed colored papers with different adds on them all the time. The bibles being passed out are no different. The government is not showing favoritism by allowing the bibles to be distributed, as it was funded by the christian church, and there is nothing wrong with that.SenorToenails wrote:
The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs? If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed. There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.
They made no exceptions for a particular religious group. The bible was no different from an add. That is essentially what it was, an add. I would like to see proof that their lawyer and insurance company told them. I have read your posts and have found nothing that would make me revoke my statement. I am too lazy to read it again, so if you would quote the corresponding part, I would appreciate it.SenorToenails wrote:
Read the rest of my posts, and tell me that the school did no wrong. They made illegal exceptions for a particular religious group. And they knew it, their lawyer and insurance company told them.Deadmonkiefart wrote:
The reason they don't have Korans or Torahs is because neither of those churches actively put them there. I have never received a bible from school, but we get distributed colored papers with different adds on them all the time. The bibles being passed out are no different. The government is not showing favoritism by allowing the bibles to be distributed, as it was funded by the christian church, and there is nothing wrong with that.SenorToenails wrote:
The problem is, if they have Bibles available upon request, why don't they have Korans or Torahs? If they only have the bible, then this state funded public school is promoting a particular religion and that is disallowed. There is a time and a place for everything, and public school is not the place for religion; though I admit, I don't see why they couldn't do it before or after school.