thanks for stopping buyMarinejuana wrote:
whoa this is so full of factual errors im not even going to touch it.
Then base scholarships, assuming equal academic achievement, on INCOME not SKIN PIGMENT.PureFodder wrote:
Due to harsh repression that minorities suffered due to the racist societies they lived in they largely tend to be the poorest in most western societies. As the wealth of the parents is a very good indicator of how well a kid is going to do in life (yes there are exceptions, but this fits the vast majority) the prospects of minority families regaining the wealth denied to them by the racist society are significantly reduced. The only way to redress the balance is to discriminate possitively, but at some point you will eventually have to say enough is enough and ditch the possitive discrimination.
It's like breaking someones legs before a race, then declaring that breaking someones legs is illegal then complaining that the wheelchair he gets gives an unfair advantage.
Boo hoo, life isn't fair. You really expect me to feel sorry for you in this instance. Your hardships were minimal at the least. You had food to eat. You had a home to live in. You could have applied for more scholarships. For shit sakes your dads a doctor you didn't even need scholorships. If you had what you needed why care what someone else did or didn't need?Dersmikner wrote:
Let me tell you a little story that shoves your theory in the shitter. You listen and tell me if you think it was fair:
I graduated in the top 10% of my high school. I was #9 in a class of 352 going into my last semester but I fell off because I'd already been accepted to the college of my choice. I think I finished #29. I was in the top 1% on my SAT. It was scored differently, but I had a 1,350 in December of 85. I was a four year letterman in more than one sport. I was Captain of the debate team. I was voted Beau (sort of like School Pimp or something). I had more extracurricular activities than I can remember. I took AP and CC (college credit) classes.
My Dad is a doctor. At the time it was his 3rd year in practice and he wasn't exactly making a fortune.
My parents had purchased me a 7 year old Monte Carlo to drive.
Across the street lived Rodney Jernigan. Great kid. His dad made an ASSLOAD more money that my Dad. Rodney's car was nicer than my Mom's car. Rodney wore NOTHING but Ralph Lauren, back when that was the shit.
Rodney was top half of our class, but that was it. Probably 100 spots below me. He had a 1,080 on the SAT. He didn't letter in any sports that I can recall, and he didn't do much for extracurricular activities.
I got $1,650 in scholarship money from The University of Texas.
Rodney got nearly $10,000.
Rodney is black. Even Rodney thought it was wrong. He didn't return the money mind you, but he thought it was wrong.
I can tell you that it really made me bitter towards Rodney. I didn't much talk to him after that. While I was eating Ramen noodles I'm sure Rodney was eating out on his "I'm black" money and that pisses me off to this day. Sure, I succeeded, but life would have been a hell of a lot better if I'd had $8,000 dollars of extra "your skin is dark" money.
I did WAY more to earn that money (from a STATE University, meaning it was funded by our tax dollars) than Rodney did, but he got it because he is black. You can bet that pisses me off.
Is that fair?
Able-Body = able to work and not in a wheelchair due to war wounds.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
You mean like that one white guy in a wheelchair on the corner of K-Mart and a US Post Office that talks in burps from his mauled throat and knocks donated mochas over with his clawed up hands, because the US Military gave him post-injury job training that he can never do? Those able-bodied white homeless men? I'm sorry if all you've seen are white guys in clean jeans with a bottle of Mr. Pibb, a pack of cigarettes and a beaten-up cardboard sign, but you're generalizing just a bit.rawls2 wrote:
I dream one day I will stop seeing able body white homeless men begging for money.
So because people are black(or non-white), they automatically have a disadvantage? How is that not racist?rawls2 wrote:
This just makes no sense. If both races had started equal then your argument has merit but they didn't. What fucken possible disadvantage could the white man have. Give me a break. A scholorship program or an equality based hiring program does not constitute racial inequality towards the white. Do you realize how dumb that sounds. What it looks like to me is the will and drive of the American (white Americans) has gone to shit, your morals have gone to shit and know that you find yourself in a shithole you want to blame another race. No way jose.
If I'm wrong, then please explain.
EE (hats
Yes, if you are black automatically you are disadvantaged. How could I explain this so you'd understand? Hmmm.... I cant but you know who can? A History book. Pick it up and read about how blacks and minorities have been treated in this country. There you will find your answer.Morpheus1229 wrote:
So because people are black(or non-white), they automatically have a disadvantage? How is that not racist?rawls2 wrote:
This just makes no sense. If both races had started equal then your argument has merit but they didn't. What fucken possible disadvantage could the white man have. Give me a break. A scholorship program or an equality based hiring program does not constitute racial inequality towards the white. Do you realize how dumb that sounds. What it looks like to me is the will and drive of the American (white Americans) has gone to shit, your morals have gone to shit and know that you find yourself in a shithole you want to blame another race. No way jose.
If I'm wrong, then please explain.
Last edited by rawls2 (2008-01-22 12:56:54)
So we all pay for the sins of the past?rawls2 wrote:
Yes, if you are black automatically you are disadvantaged. How could I explain this so you'd understand? Hmmm.... I cant but you know who can? A History book. Pick it up and read about how blacks and minorities have been treated in this country. There you will find your answer.
Here is a question for you: Do you believe black people deserve reparations for slavery?
No you don't pay for someone else's sins. Explain to me what you or any typical white person is paying for. You guys still have most of the wealth, most of the educated, most of the land, most of the political positions, most of everything. What could you possibly be complaining about? What? As for the slavery issue......not direct handouts but don't take away the social programs designed to give them the opportunities robbed from thier previous generations.SenorToenails wrote:
So we all pay for the sins of the past?rawls2 wrote:
Yes, if you are black automatically you are disadvantaged. How could I explain this so you'd understand? Hmmm.... I cant but you know who can? A History book. Pick it up and read about how blacks and minorities have been treated in this country. There you will find your answer.
Here is a question for you: Do you believe black people deserve reparations for slavery?
A lot of people have dreams.
I don't.mikkel wrote:
A lot of people have dreams.
No, I'm not complaining. I don't walk around everyday saying "Well shit, if only I were a different color!" I despise double standards, and affirmative action causes a double standard. I'm sure its intentions were noble, but its application has been anything but.rawls2 wrote:
No you don't pay for someone else's sins. Explain to me what you or any typical white person is paying for. You guys still have most of the wealth, most of the educated, most of the land, most of the political positions, most of everything. What could you possibly be complaining about? What? As for the slavery issue......not direct handouts but don't take away the social programs designed to give them the opportunities robbed from thier previous generations.
As for reparations and robbed opportunity: "Irish need not apply" Where are MY social programs? Oh right. I'm white. All the doors are open for me.
Black people have had it hard. Don't get me wrong. But why not be treated equally, instead of 'more equal'.
When was the last time an Irish man got lynched? How long have we celebrated St. Patty's day? You know how long we have been celebrating MLK day, not as long. You are correct, it is a noble thing to do and since the damage done to these people has not yet gone away you have to keep helping them.SenorToenails wrote:
No, I'm not complaining. I don't walk around everyday saying "Well shit, if only I were a different color!" I despise double standards, and affirmative action causes a double standard. I'm sure its intentions were noble, but its application has been anything but.rawls2 wrote:
No you don't pay for someone else's sins. Explain to me what you or any typical white person is paying for. You guys still have most of the wealth, most of the educated, most of the land, most of the political positions, most of everything. What could you possibly be complaining about? What? As for the slavery issue......not direct handouts but don't take away the social programs designed to give them the opportunities robbed from thier previous generations.
As for reparations and robbed opportunity: "Irish need not apply" Where are MY social programs? Oh right. I'm white. All the doors are open for me.
Black people have had it hard. Don't get me wrong. But why not be treated equally, instead of 'more equal'.
Righto. How long ago did MLK die? How long ago did St. Patrick die? That's a bad comparison, but I guess mine wasn't so good either.rawls2 wrote:
When was the last time an Irish man got lynched? How long have we celebrated St. Patty's day? You know how long we have been celebrating MLK day, not as long. You are correct, it is a noble thing to do and since the damage done to these people has not yet gone away you have to keep helping them.
Affirmative action will not make the racial divide go away. It grows resentment, because there are people who don't fully understand what damage still exists today. There is no segregation, slavery, or any of the past state-sponsored injustices. Can you tell me explicitly what the problem is?
By the way, I care because it's MY TAX MONEY that's going to support those state school scholarships. I WORK. I EARN. The government TAKES from me to support stupid shit like that and I DON'T WANT TO WORK 70 HOURS A WEEK to pay for someone to get a leg up because of the color of their skin. That is why I worry about what other people get. There's not some magic pot of funny money that the Humanitarian Fairy divvies up, it comes from OUR EARNINGS.rawls2 wrote:
Boo hoo, life isn't fair. You really expect me to feel sorry for you in this instance. Your hardships were minimal at the least. You had food to eat. You had a home to live in. You could have applied for more scholarships. For shit sakes your dads a doctor you didn't even need scholorships. If you had what you needed why care what someone else did or didn't need?Dersmikner wrote:
Let me tell you a little story that shoves your theory in the shitter. You listen and tell me if you think it was fair:
I graduated in the top 10% of my high school. I was #9 in a class of 352 going into my last semester but I fell off because I'd already been accepted to the college of my choice. I think I finished #29. I was in the top 1% on my SAT. It was scored differently, but I had a 1,350 in December of 85. I was a four year letterman in more than one sport. I was Captain of the debate team. I was voted Beau (sort of like School Pimp or something). I had more extracurricular activities than I can remember. I took AP and CC (college credit) classes.
My Dad is a doctor. At the time it was his 3rd year in practice and he wasn't exactly making a fortune.
My parents had purchased me a 7 year old Monte Carlo to drive.
Across the street lived Rodney Jernigan. Great kid. His dad made an ASSLOAD more money that my Dad. Rodney's car was nicer than my Mom's car. Rodney wore NOTHING but Ralph Lauren, back when that was the shit.
Rodney was top half of our class, but that was it. Probably 100 spots below me. He had a 1,080 on the SAT. He didn't letter in any sports that I can recall, and he didn't do much for extracurricular activities.
I got $1,650 in scholarship money from The University of Texas.
Rodney got nearly $10,000.
Rodney is black. Even Rodney thought it was wrong. He didn't return the money mind you, but he thought it was wrong.
I can tell you that it really made me bitter towards Rodney. I didn't much talk to him after that. While I was eating Ramen noodles I'm sure Rodney was eating out on his "I'm black" money and that pisses me off to this day. Sure, I succeeded, but life would have been a hell of a lot better if I'd had $8,000 dollars of extra "your skin is dark" money.
I did WAY more to earn that money (from a STATE University, meaning it was funded by our tax dollars) than Rodney did, but he got it because he is black. You can bet that pisses me off.
Is that fair?
Last edited by Dersmikner (2008-01-22 16:19:02)
Well you know what? I pay for those programs too. My money gets used for that shit and I dont care. I'd pay more if I could.Dersmikner wrote:
By the way, I care because it's MY TAX MONEY that's going to support those state school scholarships. I WORK. I EARN. The government TAKES from me to support stupid shit like that and I DON'T WANT TO WORK 70 HOURS A WEEK to pay for someone to get a leg up because of the color of their skin. That is why I worry about what other people get. There's not some magic pot of funny money that the Humanitarian Fairy divvies up, it comes from OUR EARNINGS.rawls2 wrote:
Boo hoo, life isn't fair. You really expect me to feel sorry for you in this instance. Your hardships were minimal at the least. You had food to eat. You had a home to live in. You could have applied for more scholarships. For shit sakes your dads a doctor you didn't even need scholorships. If you had what you needed why care what someone else did or didn't need?Dersmikner wrote:
Let me tell you a little story that shoves your theory in the shitter. You listen and tell me if you think it was fair:
I graduated in the top 10% of my high school. I was #9 in a class of 352 going into my last semester but I fell off because I'd already been accepted to the college of my choice. I think I finished #29. I was in the top 1% on my SAT. It was scored differently, but I had a 1,350 in December of 85. I was a four year letterman in more than one sport. I was Captain of the debate team. I was voted Beau (sort of like School Pimp or something). I had more extracurricular activities than I can remember. I took AP and CC (college credit) classes.
My Dad is a doctor. At the time it was his 3rd year in practice and he wasn't exactly making a fortune.
My parents had purchased me a 7 year old Monte Carlo to drive.
Across the street lived Rodney Jernigan. Great kid. His dad made an ASSLOAD more money that my Dad. Rodney's car was nicer than my Mom's car. Rodney wore NOTHING but Ralph Lauren, back when that was the shit.
Rodney was top half of our class, but that was it. Probably 100 spots below me. He had a 1,080 on the SAT. He didn't letter in any sports that I can recall, and he didn't do much for extracurricular activities.
I got $1,650 in scholarship money from The University of Texas.
Rodney got nearly $10,000.
Rodney is black. Even Rodney thought it was wrong. He didn't return the money mind you, but he thought it was wrong.
I can tell you that it really made me bitter towards Rodney. I didn't much talk to him after that. While I was eating Ramen noodles I'm sure Rodney was eating out on his "I'm black" money and that pisses me off to this day. Sure, I succeeded, but life would have been a hell of a lot better if I'd had $8,000 dollars of extra "your skin is dark" money.
I did WAY more to earn that money (from a STATE University, meaning it was funded by our tax dollars) than Rodney did, but he got it because he is black. You can bet that pisses me off.
Is that fair?
Good for you. That's your right. And you CAN pay more, it's called charity.
My point is that injustice for the sake of justing past wrongs is ridiculous. If that were okay then every Jew in America should have the right to identify, hunt down, and execute the descendants of German immigrants. Maybe the children of rapists should all be anally violated. Because my Great-great Grandfather was persecuted for being Italian when he arrived should I not be given some kind of prize or trinket?
How about this, 50 years from now when a white kid is growing up poorer than he otherwise might have been, because a black man got his dad's promotion, and because the father was not as well off as he could have been and said kid wasn't given scholarship money to go to the fancy school because he was white, is the black kid whose dad got the job and who got the scholarship going to be forced to give the white kid a handout?
Where does it end? Why not end it now by treating everyone equally? Earlier you said "boohoo, life isn't fair," but the whole point of your tirade and your insistence on this tax-funded social tit is to "make things fair". Which is it, life's not fair or everyone deserves a handout?
I guess my point is that I think the average black guy can succeed if he wants to, and you think black people are a bunch of helpless tards who need the white man's charity. My rich ass next door neighbor would disagree...
My point is that injustice for the sake of justing past wrongs is ridiculous. If that were okay then every Jew in America should have the right to identify, hunt down, and execute the descendants of German immigrants. Maybe the children of rapists should all be anally violated. Because my Great-great Grandfather was persecuted for being Italian when he arrived should I not be given some kind of prize or trinket?
How about this, 50 years from now when a white kid is growing up poorer than he otherwise might have been, because a black man got his dad's promotion, and because the father was not as well off as he could have been and said kid wasn't given scholarship money to go to the fancy school because he was white, is the black kid whose dad got the job and who got the scholarship going to be forced to give the white kid a handout?
Where does it end? Why not end it now by treating everyone equally? Earlier you said "boohoo, life isn't fair," but the whole point of your tirade and your insistence on this tax-funded social tit is to "make things fair". Which is it, life's not fair or everyone deserves a handout?
I guess my point is that I think the average black guy can succeed if he wants to, and you think black people are a bunch of helpless tards who need the white man's charity. My rich ass next door neighbor would disagree...
Any kind of inequality is unfair, but who said life was fair?
Apart from your neighbour having a better car than you do you have any evidence to support your arguments?
Some facts and figures would help.
Apart from your neighbour having a better car than you do you have any evidence to support your arguments?
Some facts and figures would help.
Fuck Israel
Remember this?
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=85574
Not exactly the same, but many similar views there.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=85574
Not exactly the same, but many similar views there.
Last edited by some_random_panda (2008-01-23 02:39:39)
Affirmative action assumes that those being favoured are starting from a lower base that has to be adjusted for. I.e. that most blacks are coming from a poor, disadvantaged background, where the affirmative action is required to make up for that. That I don't have aproblem with.
If you support education for people in this way, you eventually drag them out of the "gutter". I'd rather the scholarship go to a poor black kid than a middle class white kid. In the case of a poor white kid and a middle class black kid, you are no longer adjusting for historical disadvantage, you are dealing with poverty. There should still be scholarships and support for poor white kid.
In derslikner's example, I must agree it is unfair Rodney got a scholarship he didn't need. No matter what the historical disadvantage, his parents had clearly "moved on up' and no longer needed the help. A means (income) test would avoid this. This type of thing creates resentment, as well as a welfare or dependency culture. In Australia there is a lot of resentment due to affirmative action, because it is felt Aboriginals have a culture of depending on government handouts. Whether true or not, the feeling is there.
Once you have the education, the workforce should be all equal. If there are two equal candidates, then preference should probably be given to the black, female, etc candidate to correct over time the general white male bias inherent in the system. However, giving a job to the "minority" who is far poorer sends all the wrong messages. Plus you get crap employees.
On other topics:
1. America isn't a "race". It's nationality. What race, colour or creed is Amercian?
2. Yank is short for Yankee. The terms is like 150 years old. It's like Aussie, Kiwi, Fritz, etc. get over it.
3. I'll ask questions about your military and other aid and support because companies like Halliburton and Blackwater tend to be involved. American support is not whiter than white. it gets given selectively. Having oil helps. Where were the marines in Rawanda in the 1990s? Or Darfur now ... ?
If you support education for people in this way, you eventually drag them out of the "gutter". I'd rather the scholarship go to a poor black kid than a middle class white kid. In the case of a poor white kid and a middle class black kid, you are no longer adjusting for historical disadvantage, you are dealing with poverty. There should still be scholarships and support for poor white kid.
In derslikner's example, I must agree it is unfair Rodney got a scholarship he didn't need. No matter what the historical disadvantage, his parents had clearly "moved on up' and no longer needed the help. A means (income) test would avoid this. This type of thing creates resentment, as well as a welfare or dependency culture. In Australia there is a lot of resentment due to affirmative action, because it is felt Aboriginals have a culture of depending on government handouts. Whether true or not, the feeling is there.
Once you have the education, the workforce should be all equal. If there are two equal candidates, then preference should probably be given to the black, female, etc candidate to correct over time the general white male bias inherent in the system. However, giving a job to the "minority" who is far poorer sends all the wrong messages. Plus you get crap employees.
On other topics:
1. America isn't a "race". It's nationality. What race, colour or creed is Amercian?
2. Yank is short for Yankee. The terms is like 150 years old. It's like Aussie, Kiwi, Fritz, etc. get over it.
3. I'll ask questions about your military and other aid and support because companies like Halliburton and Blackwater tend to be involved. American support is not whiter than white. it gets given selectively. Having oil helps. Where were the marines in Rawanda in the 1990s? Or Darfur now ... ?