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2008-01-25 10:50:25
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6921|Northern California

Stingray24 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So a very interesting scientific discovery...and now we're supposed to do away with the religions of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity? Because of a scientific discovery?

You imply that religion and science can't coexist. For some reason, this all sounds familiar. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, Cam.
The ability to create something living out of something inanimate is supposedly the preserve of deities, no? Pulling it off will also give the creationists something to think about.
Incorrect.  God created something from nothing.  Scientists are fiddling with what already exists.

"We're simply re-writing the operating software for cells - we're not designing a genome from the bottom up - you can't drop a genome into a test tube and expect it to come to life"
Actually, God didn't just conjure things up from thin air.  He assembled things.  The Aramaic wording used in the creative periods (not days, but periods) has for the word "created" as in "god created the heavens and the earth" is to actually "assemble."  This makes sense because this earth has parts to it that are of different ages.  Man was not just conjured..he was actually "placed" in the garden, but was made from the dust.  The word dust is an interesting study..and it doesn't mean from the actual dirt on the ground.

The better explanation for science, to me, is that they are discovering God's work.  But every know and then, some yahoo comes along like Poe, who in their ignorance pretends to know more than billions and billions of humans throughout all the generations of man on earth, and thinks "aha!  we can clone!  God must not exist for sure now!"  Not realizing how many "smart guys" have said that throughout mankind's past.

I'm just glad Feos tactfully responded to Poe's opening insult on religion so nicely..kept me from saying some rude things..along the lines of "dumbest 'smart' guy"...
2008-01-25 10:51:07
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7102|Colorado
This is the next step into understanding ourselves better not to mention all of the medical benefits this will bring. Someday we will be able to prove where we came from & that will be the true blow to religion.
2008-01-25 10:51:53
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7051|London, England

S3v3N wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

they'll probably kill these scientists like they kill doctors who perform abortions.  only god can give life and only god can taketh away.
God creates Dinosaurs. God Kills Dinosaurs.  God creates Man.  Man kills god.  Man creates Dinosaurs.
Man,

Better than God
2008-01-25 11:05:51
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6560|North Tonawanda, NY

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Dinosaurs eat man, Women inherit the Earth.
Great movie!
2008-01-25 11:18:10
topal63
. . .
+533|7148

SenorToenails wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Dinosaurs eat man, Women inherit the Earth.
Great movie!
Being a Dinosaur fanboi (as a child) I thought the moment when the T-Rex makes his full (digitally created) appearance, in the rain, to be one of the best cinematic moments in movie history. Such realism and jaw dropping (special FX) visual impact had never been achieved on that level before that singular movie moment (IMO). I simply love that scene.
2008-01-25 11:26:39
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6560|North Tonawanda, NY

topal63 wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Dinosaurs eat man, Women inherit the Earth.
Great movie!
Being a Dinosaur fanboi (as a child) I thought the moment when the T-Rex makes his full (digitally created) appearance, in the rain, to be one of the best cinematic moments in movie history. Such realism and jaw dropping (special FX) visual impact had never been achieved on that level before that singular movie moment (IMO). I simply love that scene.
I must have seen that movie in theaters over 10 times.  It's still one of my favorites.
2008-01-25 11:28:20
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7240|Nårvei

topal63 wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Dinosaurs eat man, Women inherit the Earth.
Great movie!
Being a Dinosaur fanboi (as a child) I thought the moment when the T-Rex makes his full (digitally created) appearance, in the rain, to be one of the best cinematic moments in movie history. Such realism and jaw dropping (special FX) visual impact had never been achieved on that level before that singular movie moment (IMO). I simply love that scene.
I thought the same when she sticks her hand in the big pile of dino dropping in the third movie

Digital breathtaking movies when they came out is definately Jurasic Park and Matrix
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2008-01-25 11:31:34
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6560|North Tonawanda, NY

Varegg wrote:

I thought the same when she sticks her hand in the big pile of dino dropping in the third movie
That is one big pile of shit.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2008-01-25 11:31:56)

2008-01-25 11:56:09
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...
To be honest, human clones aren't something I'm eagerly waiting for. Firstly it'd be really odd, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Secondly though, if we clone a perfect human about a million times, we'd start feeling inferior to our own creation, I mean how can a human be naturally as perfect as the clone is? That'd be some depression wave coming our way.

And to add to that, cloning doesn't nessecarily mean god doesn't exist either. I see the human body more of like a vessel, not the soul itself.

Last edited by dayarath (2008-01-25 11:58:35)

inane little opines
2008-01-25 12:02:50
topal63
. . .
+533|7148

dayarath wrote:

To be honest, human clones aren't something I'm eagerly waiting for. Firstly it'd be really odd, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Secondly though, if we clone a perfect human about a million times, we'd start feeling inferior to our own creation, I mean how can a human be naturally as perfect as the clone is? That'd be some depression wave coming our way.
By perfect - what do you mean?

Better looking than you?
Smarter than you?
Stronger than you?
More durable?
Longer living?
Has a bigger dick than you?

What is it that scares you?
2008-01-25 12:03:56
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|7075
if the plan to use it for this

The group hopes eventually to use engineered genomes to make organisms that can produce clean fuels and take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere.
then its good but I doubt they are gonna use it for good only.
2008-01-25 12:04:10
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6955|South Florida
has anyone ever thought that god created you to advance rather then stay in primative technology-less life.
15 more years! 15 more years!
2008-01-25 12:06:01
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...

topal63 wrote:

dayarath wrote:

To be honest, human clones aren't something I'm eagerly waiting for. Firstly it'd be really odd, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Secondly though, if we clone a perfect human about a million times, we'd start feeling inferior to our own creation, I mean how can a human be naturally as perfect as the clone is? That'd be some depression wave coming our way.
By perfect - what do you mean?

Better looking than you?
Smarter than you?
Stronger than you?
More durable?
Longer living?
Has a bigger dick than you?

What is it that scares you?
Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
inane little opines
2008-01-25 12:06:11
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|7075

Mitch wrote:

has anyone ever thought that god created you to advance rather then stay in primative technology-less life.
well are the creatures of interest and people always strive to do new things whether they be good or bad.

Last edited by blademaster (2008-01-25 12:06:23)

2008-01-25 12:06:51
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7144|US
Recoding genetic material is not "creating life."  We still can't quite create life. 

Science does not disprove religion, nor has it proved any religion.  (That's why they are called 'faiths')


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -Einstein
2008-01-25 12:07:24
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|7075

dayarath wrote:

topal63 wrote:

dayarath wrote:

To be honest, human clones aren't something I'm eagerly waiting for. Firstly it'd be really odd, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Secondly though, if we clone a perfect human about a million times, we'd start feeling inferior to our own creation, I mean how can a human be naturally as perfect as the clone is? That'd be some depression wave coming our way.
By perfect - what do you mean?

Better looking than you?
Smarter than you?
Stronger than you?
More durable?
Longer living?
Has a bigger dick than you?

What is it that scares you?
Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
then it would be a war against the clones
2008-01-25 12:08:03
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6560|North Tonawanda, NY

dayarath wrote:

Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
Sounds like Gattaca.
2008-01-25 12:10:01
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...

blademaster wrote:

dayarath wrote:

topal63 wrote:

By perfect - what do you mean?

Better looking than you?
Smarter than you?
Stronger than you?
More durable?
Longer living?
Has a bigger dick than you?

What is it that scares you?
Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
then it would be a war against the clones
Which the clones would obviously win, because of their far more superior traits. Your weapons would be outdated in a matter of days and your tactics would always be backfired. I mean it has no use to go a war against clones like that, rather not make them in the first place. It's dangerous.

seniortoenails wrote:

Sounds like Gattaca
Heh, never thought of that might download that movie and watch it then.

Last edited by dayarath (2008-01-25 12:11:07)

inane little opines
2008-01-25 12:41:22
topal63
. . .
+533|7148

SenorToenails wrote:

dayarath wrote:

Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
Sounds like Gattaca.
Ditto... which by the way is very good movie. In which will triumphs over the material gifts of a genetic heritage and an oppressive societal structure that honors the vessel over the spirit that resides within that vessel of life.

Anyways (dayarath), sounds somewhat like sour grapes to me... so what if someone is better than you in some way or every way. That life-condition already exists. Also you under-estimate the power of evolution to deliver the near best possible solution to begin with. Certain things like death, disease, birth defects and life span could definitely use some adjusting/tuning. But, many other biological features are already near optimal biological design, and were created by a process rooted in chemistry & physics. It is based upon a design mechanism, as near low-level design as any design can be, connected to the fundamental forces found in nature. Look at piece of broccoli, a tree, a leaf, human vein structure... you'll find an optimal hydraulic design duplicated, in general, time and time again by evolution.

Also the brain is far more near optimal (when it's in good normal working condition), than maybe you're thinking. Implants that interface mind with computer processes would probably enhance the human-mind far more than genetic engineering could.

In existence I am guessing:
Shaq is taller than you and a better basketball player than you.
There are many models who are better looking than you.
There are people (celeb.s or stars, etc) that have more charisma than you.
There are people (scientists, authors, artists) that are smarter and/or more talented than you.***

Either way it doesn't change anything. Perfection doesn't exist. It's just a scale far below perfection. We already exist in that type of world. All that could happen is that scale is shifted towards the unattainable goal of perfection. Or, disease, disfigurement, etc - is simply reduced in number.

_____

*** All of this applies to me as well.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-25 12:48:26)

2008-01-25 12:49:27
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...

topal63 wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

dayarath wrote:

Smarter in every possible way, stronger in every possible way, more innovative than any human. Just 'better than you' at everything. Yes it's worrying because that would cause depression among usual humans. You can never compare yourself to that perfect form of.. you. You would be replaceable in society, and wouldn't be needed anymore either. I mean, why have a usual human do all the work with all their emotions and desire for fun etc, while you can just have the perfect human right next to it that can go on endlessly, better, quicker, and more efficiently. We'd be replaced by our own clones.
Sounds like Gattaca.
Ditto... which by the way is very good movie. In which will triumphs over the material gifts of a genetic heritage and an oppressive societal structure that honors the vessel over the spirit that resides within that vessel of life.

Anyways (dayarath), sounds somewhat like sour grapes to me... so what if someone is better than you in some way or every way. That life-condition already exists. Also you under-estimate the power of evolution to deliver the near best possible solution to begin with. Certain things like death, disease, birth defects and life span could definitely use some adjusting/tuning. But, many other biological features are already near optimal biological design, and were created by a process rooted in chemistry & physics. It is based upon a design mechanism, as near low-level design as any design can be, connected to the fundamental forces found in nature. Look at piece of broccoli, a tree, a leaf, human vein structure... you'll find an optimal hydraulic design duplicated, in general, time and time again by evolution.

Also the brain is far more near optimal (when it's in good normal working condition), than maybe you're thinking. Implants that interface mind with computer processes would probably enhance the human-mind far more than genetic engineering could.

In existence I am guessing:
Shaq is taller than and better basketball player than you.
There are many models who are better looking than you.
There are people (celeb.s or stars, etc) that have more charisma than you.
There are people (scientists, authors, artists) that are smarter and more talented than you.

Either way it doesn't change anything. Perfection doesn't exist. It's just a scale far below perfection. We already exist in that type of world. All that could happen is that scale is shifted towards the unattainable goal of perfection.
If we manage to clone somebody and alter one's DNA in the process, you can create something as smart as einstein, newton, and plato combined, and still have him excell to you at every position physically, just remove parts of his emotions to adapt him to the situation he's created for and voila, you get someone who is perfect for the job he has to perform.

The problem is, when he's better than generally all of humanity in just about anything, and can be cloned infinitely, you become useless. I wouldn't say so what to that. If you become useless you will be treated as a sheer number and won't be looked after anymore. Just think of the pyramid of Maslow. You miss just about the top half of the pyramid, which is crucial for a human to actually feel satisfied. Depression is most likely the only outcome, really big depression.

Ofcourse by the time we can do that, implants will most likely be available aswell, but why waste those implants on humans that can never perform as well as said clone? The idea of our society works on a system nowadays, and the system is to make everyone work as good and efficiently as possible to optimize the performance in the system, even the holidays you get are to take a break from the system, to afterwards come back and perform as good as you can again. You don't fit in that system anymore once someone doesn't need those holidays, and does his job better than you.
inane little opines
2008-01-25 12:59:25
BeerzGod
Hooray Beer!
+94|7000|United States
Hmmmm. Mexicans are stronger, work harder, have little emotion, and are quite a bit more efficient than us already. I don't see anyone going into depths of depression about that.

Sarcasm.
2008-01-25 13:03:50
topal63
. . .
+533|7148
Anyways (dayarath), no you can't really create genetic expression that's tied to environmental influences. So you can't necessarily create: Mozart, Einstein, Michelangelo, etc or a composite of those in a test tube/by design.

The brain is a structure, on this level, that is built by the environment as much as it is dependent upon there being a solid base structure to build upon. Inter-connectivity in-mind is a process of learning; it's environmental. Neurons build connections to other neurons based upon environmental influence. I will say it again the brain is already closer to an optimal biological plateau than you're thinking. Genetic modification could only raise that bar a small amount. What would be altered is a potential; a base; and not an actual expressed-person (the expression of a genome). All the things necessary in the environment will still have to be there: education, personal will, fortitude, people/elders/wiser need to be there to relay ideals to the ignorant, etc.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-25 13:06:27)

2008-01-25 13:09:02
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...

topal63 wrote:

Anyways (dayarath), no you can't really create genetic expression that's tied to environmental influences. So you can't necessarily create: Mozart, Einstein, Michelangelo, etc or a composite of those in a test tube/by design.

The brain is a structure, on this level, that is built by the environment as much as it is dependent upon there being a solid base structure to build upon. Inter-connectivity in-mind is process of learning; it's environmental. Neurons build connections to other neurons based upon environmental influence. I will say it again the brain is already closer to an optimal biological plateau than you're thinking. Genetic modification could only raise that bar a small amount. What would be altered is a potential; a base; and not an actual expressed-person (the expression of a genome). All the things necessary in the environment will still have to be there: education, personal will, fortitude, people/elders/wiser need to be there to relay ideals to the ignorant, etc.
I know, but the basic with which a baby is born is very usefull, you can let someone naturally have a better insight in logic than others, if you optimize the part of the brain that gives you insight to logic, you have someone with the potential of for example einstein. This potential is just about the most important thing to start with, from there on forward you can influence the child to what you wish. After that you get the perfect clone for the perfect job. Emotion isn't enviroment-related, most emotions come forth out of basic instincts. I say it should be possible to 'overwrite' those instincts with something more usefull.
inane little opines
2008-01-25 13:20:16
topal63
. . .
+533|7148
Emotional-constitution is very much so environmentally influenced. I possess both possible states of mind: love & hate, fear & welcoming/acceptance in/to my environment, peace & anxiety, etc. It is the balance of those stated, and others, influenced by environmental conditions that make up what is my general emotional nature; or particular emotional-constitution.

You keep missing the part about near optimal biological design already existing in the human mind, so here is an example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 185506.htm

Here is an example when the near-optimal signal to noise ratio is messed-up biologically (leading to a risk of Schizophrenia),
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/20 … risk.shtml
Changing the potential in this case would lower the potential for Schizophrenia. That would be a very good thing.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-01-25 13:28:11)

2008-01-25 13:52:32
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6429|...

topal63 wrote:

Emotional-constitution is very much so environmentally influenced. I possess both possible states of mind: love & hate, fear & welcoming/acceptance in/to my environment, peace & anxiety, etc. It is the balance of those stated, and others, influenced by environmental conditions that make up what is my general emotional nature; or particular emotional-constitution.

You keep missing the part about near optimal biological design already existing in the human mind, so here is an example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 185506.htm

Here is an example when the near-optimal signal to noise ratio is messed-up biologically (leading to a risk of Schizophrenia),
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/20 … risk.shtml
Changing the potential in this case would lower the potential for Schizophrenia. That would be a very good thing.
Hm, I see. Well the emotions you have seem to be of more reactions to your surroundings, you got most emotions from the start; anger, love, fear, sadness, kindness. All of these are added to you from when you're a baby, and these are reacting on your surroundings. No basic in this, no reaction to the surroundings.

On the near optimal; allright I get what you mean. Fixing things is allright to me, actually I love to see progression in medical science. But when we're starting to clone entire human beings, that's one step too far in my book.

(I actually quite follow the development of sound usage in the brain. Lucky for me I've gotten the chance to see alot of surgical operations already, and by far these involving brain surgery are the most interesting in my opinion.)

Last edited by dayarath (2008-01-25 13:54:22)

inane little opines

 

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