BF2S Forums Let Commanders Fly lol (see disclaimer.....)

GeoEnvi wrote:

I AM a good commander and it IS possible to use the assets AS they become available.  To use the computer multi-task analogy again.... it's easy to issue orders and allocate assets in the DOWNCYCLE time between bombing runs (e.g. resupply runs).

exactly, and in that time, you will be shot down, because you arent checking your six.  waisting a jet.  plus, jets do not just bomb, they have a cannon thats highly effective, and most targets are soft.  it may be possible to use assets as they become available, but its in no way efficient.

GeoEnvi wrote:

I can see up close and personal and i have a better understanding of the map/game

how do you command when doing passes to spot enemy troops? (not vehicles)  the command console can do all that, a jet is not needed.

GeoEnvi wrote:

a) in jets 200 out of 980 hours=20% b) on Wake a whopping 340/900 hours=>33%! c) as an AT kit 200/900 hours!.

my first unlock was at, i used it quite a bit, and yes, i love wake, and yes i love to fly.  whats your point?  any smart person knows that stats dont have anything to do with a players abilities.


you are not making a solid argument, its basic fact that its inefficient to do both at once, because you need to idle in one to do the other.

lol  some of you didn't get my point, maybe i used too much humor and sarcasm to deliver it.

My concept is to prey on enemy commanders who think they can do both by luring them into sexy extended duration dogfights and thus gain the strategic advantage and win the ground war.  This idea is made possible by some people think they can do adequate command while flying.

I suspect people don't know what it takes to attain "high quality'. The measure isn't just win/loss because there are variables that cannot be controlled most of the time - 31 strangers and you for example.....However, if all else is exactly equal the flying commander will lose to the ground commander.  Comparing you to yourself, you will do better if you don't fly and command. As always my comments are aimed at 16+ players per team - a ban on flying or driving commander in game of less than 15 per team is not well studied and turns BF2 into a lesser game called Cs or wolfenstein. (more humor sorry)

Facilitating synergy is the process of command.

In a 10v10 you if must fly to win and the reduced difficulty allows for an easier command effort and so dual-hat is OK by proficient players. In 10v10 your players can easily keep track of the enemy for you. That allowance goes out the window when you have 16v16+ on a 32-64 player map. At that point you must keep track of the enemy for your team along with everything else.

i fully understand OpsChief, its true, let the enemy commander be a jackass, but dont let your own be a jackass!

I'm not gonna try and provoke anyone but i have my opinion.

   There are some times where you can multitask as commander. for example. use an apc and command, the apc being used because noone wants it or it was stolen, and of course to protect one's - self from being blown up. You'll also find that certain maps/amount of players on that map will have an effect on being able to multitask. I havnt got the time to go through each and every possible scenario to get my point across, nor do i have to anyway.
   But, commanding in a plane is either very clever or just down right stupid in certain "scenarios". Take one scenario, where you would be in a plane commanding, and then uh oh an enemy fighter comes along and dogfights, and lets say this dogfight lasts a good 5 minutes, now you cannot say you could have commanded and flew the plane, with 100% concentation on both within that last 5 minutes.
   There have been sometimes where i "multitasked" in my younger days in bf2, and it has worked on some very special circumstances. But, at one point (I believe it was BUDFORCE , who was shouting at me to get out of the tank) where multitasking doesn't do to good effect, in fact that game my team lost, and i took all the blame, even though i had my rants and raves back at BUDFORCE, just to keep my ego on par. But, i was wrong in doing so. I'm sorry BUDFORCE for acting like a twat then, hopefully it will never happen again.

Back to the topic at hand.
   There are times were you can multitask as commander, but otherwise you'll just be doing the enemy team a favour.

You can go ahead and crush me by saying my stats are poor, it won't get you anywhere in this arguement.

Also, the "autopilot" geo says is kinda clever, but easy prey for an active dogfighting bastard pilot. :p

Basically, when you're in commander mode, you look "up" for some reason. Effectively, in a plane you'd go up and do a loop. But, eventually u'll still fall againest an active dogfighting bastard pilot. :p

GeoEnvi wrote:

YOU ALL MISSED MY POINT(s)! I said a) it is very possible to both command and fly and do both well enough to win (the ONLY metric to a good commander); and b) it's VERY easy to command and fly on WAKE if you are good enough.  That's it.

With the exception of Skruples' well composed YET SERIOUSLY FLAWED reply to my series of posts (NONE OF WHICH WERE DIRECTED AT HIS PREVIOUS SILENT PIEHOLE nor his 'NO SHIT,SHERLOCK' mathematics!), the rest of you make an argument in your posts and then abandon them when I provoke further reasoning.

Like I said before.... battle of wits with unarmed people... I WILL win that game every fucking time.



SKRUPLES: 

You can use a calculator and string together a bunch of words into sentences.  Big whoop. How sleuthy of you to investigate my stats! 
Win ratio spike? Joined a clan and play to win. 
High spec ops and medic use? On my way to earning expert in all kits. 
High use of Wake map?  It's pretty fun - 2nd to Karakand in my stats.
You are better at me in a jet? WHO THE FUCK CARES?
You have a better commander SPM? WHO THE FUCK CARES? 


There's nothing provoking about your post.  Nothing...

I dont really care about my commander SPM, but apparently you do. Ok, maybe you don't care, but from reading your previous posts you give the impression of caring.

Let's look further into those stats.... Everyone that reads this post should know that Old Rog here has less than 7k in commander points and an Vet Badge.  All that in 55+ hours time. That's barely 2.03 CSPM.  One the other hand I have ~2.34 CSPM and the EXPERT Command Badge.  I just might know a little more about commanding then you do.  Or, you might just suck at it! (italics added)

Am I missing something here? Because it sounds like you were using statistics to justify your superior knowledge in commanding.

High spec ops and medic use? On my way to earning expert in all kits.

I really don't care what kit you play. you can play sniper 24/7 and sit on the crane on sharqi if it makes you happy. What does interest me is this passage:

Your next comment is my favorite!  "i play every role in the game".  Yes you do - you have all the expert combat badges.  BUT... its very evident you like to WHORE IT UP: a) in jets 200 out of 980 hours=20% b) on Wake a whopping 340/900 hours=>33%! c) as an AT kit 200/900 hours!.   You really know the right "tool-kit" for the job!  In fact, you might just be THAT tool!

Now, we've already reviewed your kit time.

Rogers time in airplanes: about 20%
Your time as commander: about 18%

Do we get to call you a commander whore?

Roger:Wake Island 2007 340:57:15 / 981:33:17 34%
you: Wake Island 2007 94:08:55 / 423:21:34  23%
add to that Strike at Karkand 92:00:32 /423:21:34 21%

About 44% of your playing time on 2 maps. It seems you do pretty much all of the same things Roger does, except when Roger does it it's whoring and he's a tool. Where I come from we call this hypocrisy.

You are better at me in a jet? WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Again, I dont really care. My point was that on wake island, one of the easiest maps to kill people with an airplane, you don't seem to kill that many people. (I assume you fly on wake island most of the time, since the crux of your original post was that wake island is free of obstructions and therefore easy to command while flying). I find this is interesting, given your assertion that flying and commanding at the same time is easy. Perhaps if you spent less time commanding while you fly, those people on the ground would die more often.

I realize none of your posts were directed at me, nor do I care. I wrote my post because I disagree with you on the idea of flying and commanding. As I said before, I've never seen a good commander in a jet, and I've played this game for a very long time. The best I've seen is a commander that flies around and drops UAV once in a while, drops supplies when someone requests them, maybe drops an arty in a completely random spot because they didnt take the time to scan and track the enemies. All this is fine, but its nothing compared to what a full time commander sitting in some hole somewhere can do. I.E full time spotting coverage, drops supplies before people need to ask for them, puts UAVs on the tactically important squads etc. And, like I said before, I've never seen you play. Maybe you are the exception to the rule, the one man in this game who drop supplies on that embattled tank, do a complete scan, spot those sneaky enemies, put UAV coverage on that squad taking their main base, bomb the bejeezus out of the enemy and dogfight those pesky jets all at the same time. But I doubt it.

And since you seem to care so much about spelling, I'll just point out a few of your own errors:
Who says commanders aren't entitled to work on the K/D rations too?
Let me re-iterate (theres no hyphen in reiterate)
Doing it myrself is always better than it not getting done!
I don't know if there are any more, and I don't really care. My point is you shouldn't insult people for the purpose of winning an argument.

I hate it when commanders are in aircraft....because if YOU'RE in the heat of battle and you need something REEEALY badly and you call on your commander to help out...he wont' help coz he's too busy trying to fly a jet or helo...

armor I don't mind since you can always stop and help..

but if you apply to be commander, you should automatically say to yourself "hey I wanna command, that means I have to take a back seat to the rest of my team and I have the help THEM"

Nicely put Skruples.  I too have never seen a good flying commander, other them just putting uav in some random area, along with the artilleries. Supply drops are just put at flags. Basically they are useless, but whatever. Gotta love em.....right?

OpsChief wrote:

3. People who think they can do 2 full time jobs at the same time with 100% equal effectiveness are deluding themselves and short changing their team.

(lol it sounded alot better with the humor in the first post)

Commanding = using your assigned tools to their maximum effectiveness to benefit teamates.
"Comparing you to yourself, you will do better if you don't fly when in command." The decision cycle of command is longer than jet's spawn times and lulls in dogfighting.


Now let's get out there and have some fun.

The following is the point I was stating after my rant about complaining about people's stats.  I have edited some parts of the original quote.

DSRTurtle wrote:

I can not command and do anything else at the same time.  I know I can't because I have tried it.  That puts me ahead of a bunch of people who don't realize that.  When I command I give it 100% of my attention. That means I'm in the commander's screen for the entire round.   Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. 

Based on my experience as commander and expereinces based on playing with commanders who THINK they can multitask, I do not believe they can do an effective job.  Sure most commanders can drive from asset to asset and repair them while commanding.  That's OK.  I have done it to help my team while commander.  The best commanders are those who spend their time in the command screen concentrating on commanding.

Remember not all people have VOIP enable or in some cases on Teamspeak for whatever server they play in.  That is why I use the squad orders and let the squadleader decide how to accomplish a mission.  I have faith that they and their squad will accomplish the task at hand. 

Does this mean I know everything?  Absolutely NOT.  I know I have a ton more to learn.

Last edited by DSRTurtle (2006-02-15 04:27:12)

Trooper, I have stopped looking at the ROE lol its a mess. You are right about the guide. I didn't even need to read the guide to see the need for transition from Direct to Indirect Command styles as the game gets larger.

My original posting wasn't to complain directly about the ROE but again to say we don't need rules to dictate command imperatives, they change so often and whiney opportunists will get a commander booted for grabbing a jet when he was just killing a base raider for a minute. Just setup the enemy commander for a loss and the behavior will change.

Velox et Mortifer!

Geo,

You have good stats man. Your comment about experience is right on but use it while letting others do the same. The fact you posted your initial comment in this thread which was intended to discuss something other than what you replied with derailed us. We were talking about messing with the heads of pilots-in-command of ground troops rather than allowing some arbitrary ROE-armed admin boot GeoEnvy or me or anyone else because he wanted to command and you were getting 2x points.

Your first post belonged to other threads talking about skills, dual roles etc, we weren't. We were talking about attention span and perspective, strategy and deception. And of course to keep the enemy CO out of the fight so we can win.


in answer to the lively digression we are engaged in lol

Just because you can't see something if you "know" it is there you can't ignore it. Account for it. That's part of what Taguchi is talking about - disregarding some data because it doesn't support your opinion returns bad processes, outcomes etc etc...that's like what our Governor does lol.  You know there is life beyond BF2 so arbitrarily using a small amount of in-game-only data to support your argument about capability or experience is moot come game time. Your argument is logical but academic in that it makes BF2s database the center of gravity when in fact the people playing it are the center. Let me try to explain better: If person A is stat focussed and person B is not, you cannot make a relevant comparison BF2-wise. Even if person A has 200k and person B has 5k it is possible for B to outperform A in a task. People first would need to know and buy-into the metrics to be measured by them. It would be like judging 1st century European 'Barbarians' under 21st century Chinese law.

Furthermore some of the EA stats are just wrong bud.  EA uses an accuracy rating on the LMG for example but didn't adjust the role of the weapon into the accuracy rating so an LMG gunner in BF2 is likely to stop using it because it has "lousy" accuracy lol. Its an area fire weapon not a point target weapon, sure you try to hit things but it is better at keeping the enemy heads down while your m8s close in. Also Bf2 Command is measured and rewarded in a way that ignores the most significant tasks required by contrast to the way other positions in the game are rewarded.  What I mean is teamwork is not rewarded as teamwork but as individual performance x # players. hmm clumsy...example may be better.  Let's say the commander got points for dropping crates @ x crates per game. That doesn't say if it was a good thing or not. But if the crate points only accumulated based on the use of the crate by friendly forces then you have a teamwork score. The score was based on the relationship of the cooperative action not solely on coincidental individual efforts.

To anyone deciding to flame - People are not their stats so flaming someone about their stats risks immediate life-noob alerts...that's right...even if it isn't true  lol  knife cuts both ways.

lol "whiney opportunists" ruin alot of things but I think this game is still pretty damn good don't you?


thanks for the debate and have fun out there