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2008-01-09 20:35:37
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6999|Portland, OR, USA
1) Loss of strength due to temperature of the fire.

There was one section high up in the building that was effected by the heat of the fire, this in no way shape or form explains why the entire building (there's more holding it up than just a single steel beam in the middle) failed simultaneously. This is a really good link to look through.  It really wasn't that hot...

2) Loss of structural integrity due to distortion from non-uniform temperatures.

Again, there would only be distortion and bad steel in and around that one section.  There has to be some support on each of the four corners of the building too and that would provide the resistance needed to slow the rate at which the building falls. This is what I mean, all of those supports would create resistance, making the collapse less fluid.

3) WTC 7
I don't know about that one.. there's a lot more shady business involved, but I won't argue with your comment further than this. http://www.wtc7.net/
2008-01-10 07:34:05
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6876|Chicago, IL

CommieChipmunk wrote:

1) Loss of strength due to temperature of the fire.

There was one section high up in the building that was effected by the heat of the fire, this in no way shape or form explains why the entire building (there's more holding it up than just a single steel beam in the middle) failed simultaneously. This is a really good link to look through.  It really wasn't that hot...

2) Loss of structural integrity due to distortion from non-uniform temperatures.

Again, there would only be distortion and bad steel in and around that one section.  There has to be some support on each of the four corners of the building too and that would provide the resistance needed to slow the rate at which the building falls. This is what I mean, all of those supports would create resistance, making the collapse less fluid.

3) WTC 7
I don't know about that one.. there's a lot more shady business involved, but I won't argue with your comment further than this. http://www.wtc7.net/
Keep in mind that every floor that falls adds hundreds of tons of steel and concrete to an accelerating mass, no building is designed to survive  tens of millions of pounds of shock force localized to a single floor, and as one floor fails, that increases the load on the next, making it even more likely to fail.

Even if the outside walls survived the destruction of the floor, they would have fallen inward (and in fact they did) under their own weight. 

You're right that the destuction from the fire would only cause failure in a handful of floors, but that would put all the weight of the top of the building into free-fall, easily destroying the bolts and welds that held the other floors in place.  By easily, I mean nearly instantaneously, if you have ever seen a bridge failure, you can see that the sheer magnitude of force involved in any large mass falling can tear through massive metal bolts (carbon steel is not malleable like pure Iron, it snaps on impact, there is very little bending) withought significant delay.

If you can find the exact time the WTC took to collapse, and compare it with free fall time from the same height, I think you will find that the towers did take slightly longer, as would be expected, but the "pancake" mechanics involved in the collapse would not proceed in a floor by floor manner (as theorists seem to think it would), but would gain speed and momentum as its mass increased, making each sucessive impast much more powerful than the one before, and the mass would gain near free fall momoentum afetr only a few floors.

As for WTC 7, as a much smaller building, it was not designed with as many redundant support systems, and even moderate damage from falling debris and the resulting fires, combined with the damage to the underground network (the building had little foundation of its own) from the collapse of the main towers, would have been enough to cause its collapse (which, at nearly 7 seconds, was significantly slower than freefall speed due to the smaller weight of the building)
2008-01-10 10:47:02
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6609
As an architect myself, I have studied what happened here and have witnessed demolitions of building myself and all these stupid conspiracy theories make me laugh and is totally disrespectful to those who lost loved ones on that day.

1) The twin tower floors were designed to hold the weight of each floor alone. Each floor has its own set of live/ dead loads to carry and floor trusses were NOT designed to hold up everything above it. Floor one was NOT designed to hold up every floor above it. Each floor held its own. So when one floor collapsed from the metal fatigue, it started a major collapse. Watch the video, the floors above the collapse actually stay together as the building collapsing below the starting point. Also, the towers strongest bearing points were on the exterior and interior towards the middle of the building. The floors were actually collapsing from within, one on top of the other and the exterior sides followed, yes, it looked like a controlled demo, but it was NOT. This building collapsed as it should have and is very plausible affect from a jet liner taking out critical bearing points and the fire thereafter.

2) If our government was so intent on killing thousands of people to start a war.....why in the hell worry about CONTROLLING a demolition. Just blow the hell out of these buildings and have them fall all over the place. More death and destruction and a greater emotional effect. So our government wanted to kill our own people BUT wanted to be careful not to kill too many....LOL....what?

3) Next, and I have said this before. I have witnessed demolitions before and demolitions are a major undertaking even for 5 or 6 story buildings. It takes weeks to set up and the ONLY way to have a controlled demolition is to set it up properly. How? They actually remove most of the base exteriors at and around the foundation, they run thousands and thousands of feet of primachord and actually DRILL explosives into the main components they wish to control, so that it falls where they want it. The setup alone takes weeks and can you imagine what it would have taken for these buildings. Controlled demos almost always start from the bottom and work up, especially taller buildings, not from the top down. If you demo from the top down, you will not have control. Controlled demolition theory is a joke.

4) World Trade center 7: There are many pictures showing the damage this building took, do some real research. Again, this sized building would have had many, many, many signs of a controlled demo if it were true. YOU COULD NOT HIDE THAT SIZE OF A DEMO....PERIOD.

5) Lastly, Pentagon. I know quite a few people who witnessed all the collapses at WTC. They were a group of policeman who ran their own security firm in New York. They witnessed the second jet hitting the tower, saw the debris from the jets themselves on the ground, even one of the engines. No question that it was a civilian air liner that hit it. One of the policeman also was able to get on the Pentagon site that day. He witnessed civilian jet parts again and inside the hole of the pentagon were many bodies and burned airline chairs inside. No question that a jet liner hit it as well. There are pictures online showing this as well....again, do some REAL research yourself.

Anyhow, enough of this BS. It didn't take a rocket scientist to do what happened on 9/11 by these terrorists. They even take responsibility for it themselves and celebrate it every year. High jacking airlines is not a new concept! Taking it one step further and flying these jets into something is just what they have threatened to do since the early 70's. Have some respect for the dead and stop filling your minds with black helicopters and totally unproven conspiracy theories. Terrorists high jacked the jets, steered them into buildings, nothing more.

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2008-01-10 10:51:09)

2008-01-10 11:20:18
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6428|...

venom6 wrote:

dayarath wrote:

It isn't the fucking fire.
When the building collapsed, you got heaps of iron,rock,ashes just about anything covered in a whole lot of crap, with underneath the metal it becomes like an oven down there. The heat rises to such extents you and I could not hold for possible.
It's not the bit of fucking fire, explosives won't make metal melt instantly either, geez.
Ps: you wake the fuck up. Do you seriously believe the american government somehow got the crazy idea to kill a hella lot of people and damage the american pride in this way just because they like to do it?
and hitler DID NOT burn down the damn Reichstag, it was a dutch communist.
I was talking about Building 7 what was not even hit by a jet it only got fire what was made and then it was a controlled demolition.



It would be the biggest crime on earth if the goverment would do this simulated attack to its own country. It was a good excuse to attack Iraq but its just a little part of it. New World Order is the main goal in the background.

No you are right Hitler did not burn down the Reichstag, but in the background he prdered to do so. It was again an excuse to remove the communists from Germany.

The truth is preatty close. You should watch a few films on youtube. But okey it "was" a terror attack by osama bin laden.
Thats what the media said to you...media = lie
The only thing that someone achieves by killing thousands by drilling planes in two buildings is alot of dead people, and sad people.

Waging war upon Iraq because of this only results into more dead people and a national economy crisis. There is no such thing as world domination this way, the conspiracy theorists are paranoid of the media. Ofcourse what the media tells you isn´t always true, but if they'd lie about everything the people would have uncovered this ages ago.

A dutch commie burnt down the reichstag building in protest, Hitler was being smart and immediately used this situation to ban the communists from Germany, no such thing as a conspiracy but a smart move on an event.

"New world order" my ASS. The political standings of america just collapsed towards alot of countries when invading Iraq, tell me - how is this going to lead them to ruling the world (as silly as it sounds already) Do you honestly believe america could just take over the whole world on it's own already, and what would be the profit of doing that? NOTHING. that's right, not a single fucking thing.

You're being paranoid like them conspiracy people, snap out of it.


And read that post above mine CAREFULLY ^

Last edited by dayarath (2008-01-10 11:24:53)

inane little opines
2008-01-10 16:07:22
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6999|Portland, OR, USA

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

5) Lastly, Pentagon. I know quite a few people who witnessed all the collapses at WTC. They were a group of policeman who ran their own security firm in New York. They witnessed the second jet hitting the tower, saw the debris from the jets themselves on the ground, even one of the engines. No question that it was a civilian air liner that hit it. One of the policeman also was able to get on the Pentagon site that day. He witnessed civilian jet parts again and inside the hole of the pentagon were many bodies and burned airline chairs inside. No question that a jet liner hit it as well. There are pictures online showing this as well....again, do some REAL research yourself.
One question.

Why won't they let us see the security tapes that would prove that it was a civilian airliner?

The reports I've seen said that everything was vaporised on impact at the Pentagon, I believe Popular Mechanics even used that to explain why nothing was found. Hell, look at this.  Everything was vaporised but there was a perfect piece of metal laying on the lawn for a photo op?  Please.

All of these conspiracy theories would just go away if they didn't do all of this shady bullshit.  Hell, why is America not ready to see the evidence from the JFK assassination until decades later?  Why must everything be so hidden.

They have given me no reason to ever believe anything that they've said, and I'm not going to start just because of a couple government "scientists" say so.
2008-01-10 17:10:13
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6840|'Murka

Give it up. One of the people that works for me went around, policing up airplane parts, body parts, building parts, you name it on 9/11 at the Pentagon. It was a plane. Period.

The security tapes don't show a plane because they take one picture a second. At the speed the plane was traveling (or a missile that big would have been traveling), and the FOV of the camera, you stand a better chance of NOT seeing it on the camera than actually catching it in a frame. So your lack of a picture of the plane proves nothing...other than there was no picture of the plane.

And it's not a "couple of government 'scientists'". It is literally hundreds of experts in the subspecialties involved who have shown, over and over again, that it wasn't controlled demolition at WTC, it wasn't a missile at the Pentagon, and that UA 93 actually did crash in PA. Far more experts have reinforced the truth, supported by facts and science, than those who have decided to side with the conspiracy theorists.

Just move on.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-01-10 17:18:53
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6876|Chicago, IL

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Why won't they let us see the security tapes that would prove that it was a civilian airliner?

The reports I've seen said that everything was vaporised on impact at the Pentagon, I believe Popular Mechanics even used that to explain why nothing was found. Hell, look at this.  Everything was vaporised but there was a perfect piece of metal laying on the lawn for a photo op?  Please.

All of these conspiracy theories would just go away if they didn't do all of this shady bullshit.  Hell, why is America not ready to see the evidence from the JFK assassination until decades later?  Why must everything be so hidden.

They have given me no reason to ever believe anything that they've said, and I'm not going to start just because of a couple government "scientists" say so.
There is a video, bu it doesn't show much...
are you aware that many security cameras have a frame rate of 10 fps or less?
A plane moving at 500mph very close to the camera could make the pass in one or two frames (in the video, you see the nose, and then the impact in the next frame)

the fuselage was vaporized, but the wings and tail rudders were ripped off, and would have left debris.

damn, FEOS beat me...

Last edited by S.Lythberg (2008-01-10 17:21:40)

2008-01-10 17:54:11
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6948|Πάϊ

FEOS wrote:

Give it up. One of the people that works for me went around, policing up airplane parts, body parts, building parts, you name it on 9/11 at the Pentagon. It was a plane. Period.

The security tapes don't show a plane because they take one picture a second. At the speed the plane was traveling (or a missile that big would have been traveling), and the FOV of the camera, you stand a better chance of NOT seeing it on the camera than actually catching it in a frame. So your lack of a picture of the plane proves nothing...other than there was no picture of the plane.

And it's not a "couple of government 'scientists'". It is literally hundreds of experts in the subspecialties involved who have shown, over and over again, that it wasn't controlled demolition at WTC, it wasn't a missile at the Pentagon, and that UA 93 actually did crash in PA. Far more experts have reinforced the truth, supported by facts and science, than those who have decided to side with the conspiracy theorists.

Just move on.
It's amazing how the whole conversation revolves only around these things. So maybe it wasn't a controlled demolition. Maybe it wasn't a missile. Does that somehow change the outcome of the attacks? Does it change the benefiting parties? Not in the least. The fact of the matter is that due to whatever happened on 9/11, our civil liberties are being seriously chopped down (in the long run mine as well, this being a global issue), unconstitutional laws are allowed to pass on account of fear among the populace, unlawful wars were allowed to happen, thousands of innocent civilians and soldiers are dead etc etc. So it's a crappy movie. But hey. It's only meant for those lazy enough not to read.
ƒ³
2008-01-10 18:04:29
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6840|'Murka

So somehow being unhappy with how things turned out justifies the ridiculous accusations from the conspiracy followers?! Seriously?!

No unconstitutional laws have been passed. If they were unconstitutional, they wouldn't have been passed, or would have been overturned. And whether the populace is scared or not has nothing to do with it. They didn't put the Patriot Act to a popular vote...they don't put any laws to a popular vote. That's just not how the government works.

There has not been an unlawful war. There has been a poorly executed post-war plan, but the use of military force itself was justified under UN resolution, whether you agree with it or not. The US Congress authorized the action, and continues to authorize it. Nothing unlawful about any of it. Doesn't mean it was a good idea, necessarily...but to bandy about "unlawful" and "unconstitutional" and "civil liberties...chopped down" (especially for non-US citizens) is hyperbolic, reactionary, ill-informed, and simply doesn't mesh with the facts.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-01-10 18:08:02
Major.League.Infidel
Make Love and War
+303|6907|Communist Republic of CA, USA

venom6 wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

this post was BS 6 months ago, and it's still BS now

The twin towers were brought down by impacts from two jet aircraft piloted by radical muslim terrorists, that is what happened, and that is all that happened.
No wrecks at all as it may disappear because of the fire right ?
https://atsmedia.cachefly.net/images/ats/pentagon757/rim1.jpg
https://atsmedia.cachefly.net/images/ats/pentagon757/rim2.jpg
Wheel
https://atsmedia.cachefly.net/images/ats/pentagon757/landinggear002.jpg
Landing Gear Strut
https://atsmedia.cachefly.net/images/ats/pentagon757/planeparts-1.jpg
I mean, EVERYONE knows that the pentagon has a Jet engine in it, right? (Auxillary Power Unit for Boeing 757)
https://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/13.jpg
Oops.


Anyway, if you're still not convinced
here

I don't feel like destroying the rest of your theories about the evilness of the Government, because my handler doesn't permit me too.  If you'll excuse me, I've got some undesireables to waterboard.
2008-01-10 18:32:57
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6948|Πάϊ

FEOS wrote:

So somehow being unhappy with how things turned out justifies the ridiculous accusations from the conspiracy followers?! Seriously?!

No unconstitutional laws have been passed. If they were unconstitutional, they wouldn't have been passed, or would have been overturned. And whether the populace is scared or not has nothing to do with it. They didn't put the Patriot Act to a popular vote...they don't put any laws to a popular vote. That's just not how the government works.

There has not been an unlawful war. There has been a poorly executed post-war plan, but the use of military force itself was justified under UN resolution, whether you agree with it or not. The US Congress authorized the action, and continues to authorize it. Nothing unlawful about any of it. Doesn't mean it was a good idea, necessarily...but to bandy about "unlawful" and "unconstitutional" and "civil liberties...chopped down" (especially for non-US citizens) is hyperbolic, reactionary, ill-informed, and simply doesn't mesh with the facts.
Unhappiness has nothing to do with the justification of the accusations. The fact that the Patriot Act was not put to a popular vote is not something to brag about. Neither is the way the government works. Because the way the government works seems to be against the interests of its own people. Pre-emptive wars are by definition unlawful. And the only hyperbolic thing is the government's reaction. Take your basic civil rights for example, and shove them down the toilet, since the day one may be arrested and detained for an infinite amount of time without charges pressed against him on the claim that he is a suspected terrorist. As for me not being a US citizen, well, that only slows things down. What's coming for you is coming for me as well. Sadly. Example? Only yesterday a guy just happened to film a gov. official as he was driving (with police escort) on a bus lane. The man was arrested, kept in a cell for a day without charges and was only released after he agreed to delete the video in question. The official explanation later given to the media was that he was arrested as a suspected terrorist.

But come to think of it, the above probably means nothing to you, since in your country rallies and demonstrations can be filmed by the police (who of course may then keep records of all those who oppose gov. decisions etc) in order to promote "safety".

Last edited by oug (2008-01-10 18:35:08)

ƒ³
2008-01-10 18:50:08
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6876|Chicago, IL

oug wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So somehow being unhappy with how things turned out justifies the ridiculous accusations from the conspiracy followers?! Seriously?!

No unconstitutional laws have been passed. If they were unconstitutional, they wouldn't have been passed, or would have been overturned. And whether the populace is scared or not has nothing to do with it. They didn't put the Patriot Act to a popular vote...they don't put any laws to a popular vote. That's just not how the government works.

There has not been an unlawful war. There has been a poorly executed post-war plan, but the use of military force itself was justified under UN resolution, whether you agree with it or not. The US Congress authorized the action, and continues to authorize it. Nothing unlawful about any of it. Doesn't mean it was a good idea, necessarily...but to bandy about "unlawful" and "unconstitutional" and "civil liberties...chopped down" (especially for non-US citizens) is hyperbolic, reactionary, ill-informed, and simply doesn't mesh with the facts.
Unhappiness has nothing to do with the justification of the accusations. The fact that the Patriot Act was not put to a popular vote is not something to brag about. Neither is the way the government works. Because the way the government works seems to be against the interests of its own people. Pre-emptive wars are by definition unlawful. And the only hyperbolic thing is the government's reaction. Take your basic civil rights for example, and shove them down the toilet, since the day one may be arrested and detained for an infinite amount of time without charges pressed against him on the claim that he is a suspected terrorist. As for me not being a US citizen, well, that only slows things down. What's coming for you is coming for me as well. Sadly. Example? Only yesterday a guy just happened to film a gov. official as he was driving (with police escort) on a bus lane. The man was arrested, kept in a cell for a day without charges and was only released after he agreed to delete the video in question. The official explanation later given to the media was that he was arrested as a suspected terrorist.

But come to think of it, the above probably means nothing to you, since in your country rallies and demonstrations can be filmed by the police (who of course may then keep records of all those who oppose gov. decisions etc) in order to promote "safety".
Complain all you want, but answer this: has the patriot act, or any other "illegal" act of the administration affected the way you or i live my life?

do i go to work terrified that the guy next to me is an undercover agent?
are anti-war protests being broken up by riot squads?
are there government agents secretly listening in on all our cell phone calls?


The answer to all these questions is no

Unless you do something incredibly stupid like film security details or place calls to Anbar, Iraq, the government really has no interest in what you're doing.
2008-01-11 01:54:08
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6840|'Murka

oug wrote:

Unhappiness has nothing to do with the justification of the accusations. The fact that the Patriot Act was not put to a popular vote is not something to brag about. Neither is the way the government works. Because the way the government works seems to be against the interests of its own people. Pre-emptive wars are by definition unlawful. And the only hyperbolic thing is the government's reaction. Take your basic civil rights for example, and shove them down the toilet, since the day one may be arrested and detained for an infinite amount of time without charges pressed against him on the claim that he is a suspected terrorist. As for me not being a US citizen, well, that only slows things down. What's coming for you is coming for me as well. Sadly. Example? Only yesterday a guy just happened to film a gov. official as he was driving (with police escort) on a bus lane. The man was arrested, kept in a cell for a day without charges and was only released after he agreed to delete the video in question. The official explanation later given to the media was that he was arrested as a suspected terrorist.

But come to think of it, the above probably means nothing to you, since in your country rallies and demonstrations can be filmed by the police (who of course may then keep records of all those who oppose gov. decisions etc) in order to promote "safety".
You clearly don't understand how the US system of government works (and has always worked). We don't put laws to a popular vote. That's what our elected representatives are for. And making it easier to find those who would work to kill our citizens simply because they are our citizens is nothing to be upset about, either. Lythberg put it quite well...there haven't been any instances of the abuses people (here and abroad) have been screaming would occur.

The invasion of Iraq was justified on the grounds of 17 violated UN resolutions, some of which (including the final one) allowed for military force to be used. Again, just because you don't like it or don't agree with it doesn't mean it is unlawful.

What does something that happened in your country have to do with civil liberties in my country? How does videotaping a demonstration violate anyone's rights? No one gets arrested here for filming a motorcade...it happens all the time. Maybe you should work to get your own country's issues sorted out?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-01-11 04:08:21
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6948|Πάϊ

S.Lythberg wrote:

Complain all you want, but answer this: has the patriot act, or any other "illegal" act of the administration affected the way you or i live my life?

do i go to work terrified that the guy next to me is an undercover agent?
are anti-war protests being broken up by riot squads?
are there government agents secretly listening in on all our cell phone calls?


The answer to all these questions is no

Unless you do something incredibly stupid like film security details or place calls to Anbar, Iraq, the government really has no interest in what you're doing.
Hey man, I'm not complaining! I'm just pointing out a few things I think are important to us all, for which I feel deeply saddened. And to answer your question, yes. Neither of us can ever say for sure about the phones etc so I'm not even gonna go there, but the rest are quite true I'm afraid. The police have been on the offense during the last few years, and that is evident in the way they deal with anti-war protests as well. I don't know where you get your information from, but I sure know of tons of cases where the police have beaten and illegally arrested protesters. And that's not all. The Patriot Act gives the authorities enormous power over the people. Unfortunately I cannot sit and list the ways in which your rights are being violated. You will have to find that out by yourself. As for the illegality of it all, I will only point out to Gitmo.

FEOS wrote:

You clearly don't understand how the US system of government works (and has always worked). We don't put laws to a popular vote. That's what our elected representatives are for. And making it easier to find those who would work to kill our citizens simply because they are our citizens is nothing to be upset about, either.
I am well aware of how the system works both here and there. Mind you, even putting the matter up on a popular vote wouldn't change things by much. I'm certainly not saying that's the solution. 

FEOS wrote:

The invasion of Iraq was justified on the grounds of 17 violated UN resolutions, some of which (including the final one) allowed for military force to be used. Again, just because you don't like it or don't agree with it doesn't mean it is unlawful.
Funny how some UN resolutions get sorted out faster than others eh? Also funny how the US uses the UN whenever it suits them yet ignores it entirely when it doesn't.
Anyway FEOS, I'm quite sure that the legal pretext is somehow created. On the other hand, one cannot set aside the way these UN resolutions came to be, meaning the pressure exerted by the US etc.

FEOS wrote:

What does something that happened in your country have to do with civil liberties in my country? How does videotaping a demonstration violate anyone's rights? No one gets arrested here for filming a motorcade...it happens all the time. Maybe you should work to get your own country's issues sorted out?
Certainly my country's messed up! And worry not, we are doing everything we can to somehow sort things out. The fact remains though, that policies of your country are also in time taken up by the EU. The way the world dealt with the issue of terrorism after 9/11 is a first class example of that. Because like many people said after the event, the attacks were not only against the USA, they were against the west in general.
ƒ³
2008-01-11 18:01:09
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6876|Chicago, IL

oug wrote:

Hey man, I'm not complaining! I'm just pointing out a few things I think are important to us all, for which I feel deeply saddened. And to answer your question, yes. Neither of us can ever say for sure about the phones etc so I'm not even gonna go there, but the rest are quite true I'm afraid. The police have been on the offense during the last few years, and that is evident in the way they deal with anti-war protests as well. I don't know where you get your information from, but I sure know of tons of cases where the police have beaten and illegally arrested protesters. And that's not all. The Patriot Act gives the authorities enormous power over the people. Unfortunately I cannot sit and list the ways in which your rights are being violated. You will have to find that out by yourself. As for the illegality of it all, I will only point out to Gitmo.
beaten and arrested protesters?

show me one, besides that ass at the John Kerry rally (who deserved it anyway)

The only thing cops around here are on the lookout for is expired liscence plates.

And yes, I can say about the phones, that a network of computers screens calls, singling out only calls to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.


The police have treated me and everybody i know the same now as they did on September 10, 2001

As for Gitmo, i don't really care about the rights of terrorists...
2008-01-11 18:13:52
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7061|949

S.Lythberg wrote:

oug wrote:

Hey man, I'm not complaining! I'm just pointing out a few things I think are important to us all, for which I feel deeply saddened. And to answer your question, yes. Neither of us can ever say for sure about the phones etc so I'm not even gonna go there, but the rest are quite true I'm afraid. The police have been on the offense during the last few years, and that is evident in the way they deal with anti-war protests as well. I don't know where you get your information from, but I sure know of tons of cases where the police have beaten and illegally arrested protesters. And that's not all. The Patriot Act gives the authorities enormous power over the people. Unfortunately I cannot sit and list the ways in which your rights are being violated. You will have to find that out by yourself. As for the illegality of it all, I will only point out to Gitmo.
beaten and arrested protesters?

show me one, besides that ass at the John Kerry rally (who deserved it anyway)

The only thing cops around here are on the lookout for is expired liscence plates.

And yes, I can say about the phones, that a network of computers screens calls, singling out only calls to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.


The police have treated me and everybody i know the same now as they did on September 10, 2001

As for Gitmo, i don't really care about the rights of terrorists...
Unfortunately, many people in Gitmo and released from Gitmo have never been charged with a crime, let alone a terrorist act.

I have seen firsthand (I have witnessed) protests where people were arrested and/or physically assaulted - not necessarily beaten, but treated with more force than necessary.  It does happen.

Here is a video of recent immigration rallies in LA where even the LA chief of police (Bratton) admitted some of his police used "inappropriate force".

http://video.knbc.com/player/?id=99815

What is interesting is that it seems that this thread has become a sort of battle of ideologies between the "pro-establishment" and anti-establishment" (for lack of better terms) factions on this website.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-01-11 18:44:40)

2008-01-11 18:21:01
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6948|Πάϊ

S.Lythberg wrote:

beaten and arrested protesters?

show me one, besides that ass at the John Kerry rally (who deserved it anyway)

The only thing cops around here are on the lookout for is expired liscence plates.

And yes, I can say about the phones, that a network of computers screens calls, singling out only calls to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.


The police have treated me and everybody i know the same now as they did on September 10, 2001

As for Gitmo, i don't really care about the rights of terrorists...
I was going to go through news reports to find the number of arrested people in a random demonstration, and I was going to ask how you know that about the phones, but your comment about the Guantanamo detainees speaks volumes about your attitude toward this whole subject. If in your mind the fact that a person was arrested automatically makes him guilty of something then what can I say.
ƒ³
2008-01-11 19:13:55
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6876|Chicago, IL

oug wrote:

I was going to go through news reports to find the number of arrested people in a random demonstration, and I was going to ask how you know that about the phones, but your comment about the Guantanamo detainees speaks volumes about your attitude toward this whole subject. If in your mind the fact that a person was arrested automatically makes him guilty of something then what can I say.
Number arrested does not equal number unfairly arrested, and there was a story run on the news about the government surveilance program.

I am aware that most of the inmantes in Guantanamo have yet to be charged with a crime, but as I have said earlier, the only way to get there is to do something incredibly foolish in ready view of government agents, in which case, I have little sympathy for you.

My point is, the vast majority of American citizens have been completely unaffected by the new policies, and I'm willing to bet that most wouldn't even be able to tell you what new laws are in place.

As for Ken Jennings and the LA protests, Since when has the LAPD been the basis of anything moral or uncorrupt?  They have been beating people since the 70's, and in this instance, the protesters threw rocks and bottles at the police before the incidents occured.
2008-01-29 17:35:24
TeamOrange
Don't be that guy
+84|6740
Personally I discredit the zeitgeist when they talk about the Kennedy assassination being a government conspiracy, was somewhat interesting.

I loled at the google ad:
https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5387/25238104bz2.png

I can't edit ss sorry
kind of like how i feel about the zeitgeist

Last edited by TeamOrange (2008-01-29 17:39:25)

2008-01-29 17:53:48
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7191

search
2008-01-29 17:56:45
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7197
Linking banking with war.

there is a corporation/group the "bis" i think.

They were setup after ww1 to pay war reparations. When it was setup it was done so it could operate without bureaucracy. They operate outside taxation an international law.

i think it all goes down in basel, switzerland.

very powerful
2008-01-29 18:00:51
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7136|67.222.138.85
merged
2008-01-29 18:20:24
Major.League.Infidel
Make Love and War
+303|6907|Communist Republic of CA, USA
I just got an email from Jeremy.  He completed his Civilian Oppression training, and will be returning to the US with the rest of his unit to root out all the dissidents.  You clearly caught onto the government's secrets, so they have to silence all of you.
2008-01-29 19:16:50
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6874|The Land of Scott Walker
Do we have to discuss this bs again?
2008-01-29 20:00:28
TeamOrange
Don't be that guy
+84|6740

Stingray24 wrote:

Do we have to discuss this bs again?
It's not bs it's the truth.

Last edited by TeamOrange (2008-01-29 20:00:48)

 

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