B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

and you honestly think that more troops can solve the taliban problem ? Remember, the sowjet union had more than 100,000 troops in there in the 80's, and a distinct technological advantage; yet, they couldn't overcome the insurgency. You can't fix a country with bullets.

A couple of thousand more soldiers won't change nothing.

btw, I find it very ironic that you call yourself Gandhi here. if you want, I can get you a new name, that better fits your agenda.
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|6988|Area 51
Not their war anyway.
Ghandi767
Member
+17|7045|Hanging in the Balance

B.Schuss wrote:

and you honestly think that more troops can solve the taliban problem ? Remember, the sowjet union had more than 100,000 troops in there in the 80's, and a distinct technological advantage; yet, they couldn't overcome the insurgency. You can't fix a country with bullets.

A couple of thousand more soldiers won't change nothing.

btw, I find it very ironic that you call yourself Gandhi here. if you want, I can get you a new name, that better fits your agenda.
If no one has figured this out yet, the name is meant to be ironic...

*sigh*

" Not their war anyway."

Dear god not again, re-read the thread for the counter-argument.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

Ghandi767 wrote:

Dear god not again, re-read the thread for the counter-argument.
sorry, couldn't find a valuable one. NATO mission or not, there is nothing in the NATO statutes that would force a member state to provide military support against national legislation. We have strong parliamentary oversight in Germany and for good reason.
Seriously, ghandi, for someone who is so keen on spreading the values of democracy around the world, you have surprisingly little respect for democratic processes in other countries. Or is democracy only good when it serves US interests ?
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066

B.Schuss wrote:

and you honestly think that more troops can solve the taliban problem ?
yes.  personal experience has proven that fact to me.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

and you honestly think that more troops can solve the taliban problem ?
yes.  personal experience has proven that fact to me.
care to elaborate ? What can you do with 30,000 troops, what the russians couldn't do with 100,000 ?

I fail to see the success that regular armed forces are supposed to have against insurgents/terrorists, that are well embedded in the local population.
Or are you suggesting that this strategy is actually working in Iraq or Afghanistan ?
greensprite
awsm
+13|6589|Germany

B.Schuss wrote:

Ghandi767 wrote:

Dear god not again, re-read the thread for the counter-argument.
sorry, couldn't find a valuable one. NATO mission or not, there is nothing in the NATO statutes that would force a member state to provide military support against national legislation. We have strong parliamentary oversight in Germany and for good reason.
Seriously, ghandi, for someone who is so keen on spreading the values of democracy around the world, you have surprisingly little respect for democratic processes in other countries. Or is democracy only good when it serves US interests ?
ghandi= 0 : 1 =B.Schuss
jord
Member
+2,382|7101|The North, beyond the wall.

B.Schuss wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

and you honestly think that more troops can solve the taliban problem ?
yes.  personal experience has proven that fact to me.
care to elaborate ? What can you do with 30,000 troops, what the russians couldn't do with 100,000 ?

I fail to see the success that regular armed forces are supposed to have against insurgents/terrorists, that are well embedded in the local population.
Or are you suggesting that this strategy is actually working in Iraq or Afghanistan ?
You must see the advantages of having more troops, surely.

The more troops their the less attacks on bases.
The more troops the more enemy is taken out.
The more troops the wider area that they can protect.

There's probably bigger and better reasons that I have missed. But more troops can only be a good thing.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066
it did when I was in Iraq.  More Troops in an area for any given time equaled less insurgent activity.  Sorry, but there isnt a word you could say or source you could post that could change what I witnessed.


and seeing as how we have already accomplished so much  more in much less time with less personnel than the soviets did reaffirms that fact.



We have been there half the time the soviets were.  We have taken a fraction of the casualties.  We have empowered the Afghanistan gov't and people more than the soviets ever did.   But I also realize you are set in your beliefs and no matter what kind of information is presented, your mind is already made.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-02-03 10:15:46)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7184

greensprite wrote:

ghandi= 0 : 1 =B.Schuss
you=retard
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7184

RDMC wrote:

Not their war anyway
Maybe you are not familiar with NATO.
c14u53w172
Member
+31|6421|tomania

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

and seeing as how we have already accomplished so much  more in much less time with less personnel than the soviets did reaffirms that fact.
well, the soviets had the whole country fighting against them, whereas now big parts of the afghan people support the western troops or at least don't fight them...
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066

c14u53w172 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

and seeing as how we have already accomplished so much  more in much less time with less personnel than the soviets did reaffirms that fact.
well, the soviets had the whole country fighting against them, whereas now big parts of the afghan people support the western troops or at least don't fight them...
thats the point.  would you want to abandon them now while they like us, or ending up sending more troops later for when they dont.
jord
Member
+2,382|7101|The North, beyond the wall.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

c14u53w172 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

and seeing as how we have already accomplished so much  more in much less time with less personnel than the soviets did reaffirms that fact.
well, the soviets had the whole country fighting against them, whereas now big parts of the afghan people support the western troops or at least don't fight them...
thats the point.  would you want to abandon them now while they like us, or ending up sending more troops later for when they dont.
Not only that, but leaving the anti Taliban forces now would look very bad. NATO forces give the Afghans the courage to fight the Taliban, if we left they would get floored. And it would be our fault for leaving.

Last edited by jord (2008-02-03 11:01:07)

Major.League.Infidel
Make Love and War
+303|6901|Communist Republic of CA, USA

RDMC wrote:

Not their war anyway.
https://www.greatdreams.com/madrid-train.jpg
https://varifrank.com/images/madrid-bombing-large-01.jpg

Terrorism isn't just America's Problem.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6952|Global Command
Plus it would take like 10 Russian conscripts to take out one American marine, assuming the marine wasn't armed.

But seriously, the Russian grunts didn't want to be there, we had 9-11 and there was moral background for our fight.

I think there can be no rational comparison between our war and the soviets.

If we had put our resources into Afghanistan instead of Iraq I do not think there would even be a discussion.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

from what I have heard, if there is more coalition troop activity in one area, the insurgents will simply move on to another area, or hide for a while in the remote mountain area of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. How that is supposed to put an end to the Taliban rule, I cannot see.

secondly, I have heard numerous journalists ( including those who were there ) say that those who really run Afghanistan outside of Kabul, are the local warlords, clansmen and tribes, and the taliban. Maybe I am wrong here, but I believe that the Afghani government is a puppet regime that is in no way connected to what happens in that country, and only exists because the west supports it.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

But I also realize you are set in your beliefs and no matter what kind of information is presented, your mind is already made.
I could say the same thing about you, couldn't I ?

Neither of us can look into the future. Time will tell. From historical experience though, one could conclude that regular armed forces are generally ineffective against an armed insurgency. They blend in too well with the local population. In most cases, they are the local population.

I am not saying that there can never be exceptions to that "rule", but atm, I fail to see that Afghanistan is one of them.
If you want to attribute that to my closed-mindedness, lack of better information, or stubbornness, is up to you.

and now, because it's superbowl sunday, let me give you this:

https://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0ai9whLW0Y-uMM:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Choco_chip_cookie.jpg

and this: https://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:kn8I__hbDnhtoM:https://trak.in/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/budweiser-india-launch.jpg

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066

B.Schuss wrote:

from what I have heard, if there is more coalition troop activity in one area, the insurgents will simply move on to another area, or hide for a while in the remote mountain area of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. How that is supposed to put an end to the Taliban rule, I cannot see.
more troops means more areas simultaneously occupied.  cant you see where your argument just failed you.

B.Schuss wrote:

I could say the same thing about you, couldn't I ?
Thing is, I draw my conclusions from personal experience.  I assume you are coming to yours through educated guess and other's opinions.  Is there anything more to you believing what you believe other than your prior opinions and online sources?

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-02-03 11:18:40)

jord
Member
+2,382|7101|The North, beyond the wall.
To some extent they blend into the local population. However this is Afghanistan, not Iraq. The terrain is open with Mountains, firefights take place here more than in a close quarters Iraq city.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

usmarine wrote:

RDMC wrote:

Not their war anyway
Maybe you are not familiar with NATO.
why do I have to repeat myself ? NATO cannot force anyone to contribute in a way that would go against national law.
The deployment of german combat troops in the south would require an extended parliamentary mandate, and atm, there is no majority for that.

again, considering that you americans are always so keen on promoting the values of democracy around the globe, you show surprisingly little respect towards democratic processes in other nations. Unless of course, it fits your agenda.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066

B.Schuss wrote:

again, considering that you americans are always so keen on promoting the values of democracy around the globe, you show surprisingly little respect towards democratic processes in other nations. Unless of course, it fits your agenda.
adding doesnt necessarily delete the condescending tone in your message.  What you are saying is, it is against German law to honor treaty commitments?

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-02-03 11:30:06)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7184

B.Schuss wrote:

usmarine wrote:

RDMC wrote:

Not their war anyway
Maybe you are not familiar with NATO.
why do I have to repeat myself ? NATO cannot force anyone to contribute in a way that would go against national law.
The deployment of german combat troops in the south would require an extended parliamentary mandate, and atm, there is no majority for that.

again, considering that you americans are always so keen on promoting the values of democracy around the globe, you show surprisingly little respect towards democratic processes in other nations. Unless of course, it fits your agenda.
What does that have to do with my response to RDMC?
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7112|Tampa Bay Florida
B.Schuss... use your head dude.  Not sending enough troops was one of the major fuck ups when the US invaded Iraq.  And then we send in a surge of troops... and guess what?  The violence magically goes down. 

Although I think Germany should have the right to not send troops.  Just pointing that out.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7066
lets also put things in perspective as well.  The United States, I think its safe to say, has the record of the least amount of times to try to take over the world compared to the rest of NATO.   Whats with this "You Americans...spreading democracy...."
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7264|Cologne, Germany

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

more troops means more areas simultaneously occupied.  cant you see where your argument just failed you.
not really. Unless of course, you would have enough troops to occupy the whole freakin country, all 652.225 km².

Let me quote from a RAND study on nation building from 2003:

"The population of Iraq today is nearly 25 million. That population would require 500,000 foreign troops on the ground to meet a standard of 20 troops per thousand residents. This number is more than three times the number of foreign troops now deployed to Iraq (see figure). For a sustainable stabilization force on a 24-month rotation cycle, the international community would need to draw on a troop base of 2.5 million troops. Such numbers are clearly not feasible and emphasize the need for the rapid creation of indigenous security forces even while foreign troops continue to be deployed. The extremely low force ratio for Afghanistan, a country with a population even larger than that of Iraq, shows the implausibility of current stabilization efforts by external forces."

source: http://www.rand.org/publications/randre … urden.html


GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Thing is, I draw my conclusions from personal experience.  I assume you are coming to yours through educated guess and other's opinions.  Is there anything more to you believing what you believe other than your prior opinions and online sources?
ah, a subtle low blow, how nice of you. No, online sources and television can only get you so far. Among other things, I base my judgement on the personal experience of this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Scholl-Latour

as a journalist, he has been on every major battlefield since WWII, including Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and probably knows more about the region than anyone else among german journalists. He has travelled Afghanistan extensively in recent years.
More importantly, he is genuine, and I trust him.

you want personal experience ? He's got loads.

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