{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|7189|San Antonio, Texas

Locoloki wrote:

watch the movie Sicko
I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.

Stingray24 wrote:

I honestly haven't looked into what I think the best solution would be.  But handing over control of all healthcare to politicians is not what I want.  They've screwed up everything else quite nicely.  Thanks to them I won't ever receive Social Security because they used up the money for other things.  Government will only make the situation in healthcare worse.  Though they could help by passing laws putting caps on these stupid lawsuits that are helping drive up cost.  If we all went back to being consumers and shopping around for our healthcare, it would once again become a marketplace with competition and prices would decrease.
Exactly. I'm not saying our health care programs are perfect today but I do not think universal health care is the way to go.

Last edited by {M5}Sniper3 (2008-02-04 21:28:56)

Soldier-Of-Wasteland
Mephistopheles
+40|7085|Land of the Very Cold

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

watch the movie Sicko
I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
That"s because you're not open-minded enough, and scared of the truth
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom
speaking of Sicko, im curious as to how Mrs. Clinton has changed her stance since the Health care insurance lobbyists funded her run for Senator
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

watch the movie Sicko
I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
yeah i know, its tough knowing a 175 dollar medication can be bought for 5 pesos in Cuba
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|7189|San Antonio, Texas

Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

watch the movie Sicko
I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
That"s because you're not open-minded enough, and scared of the truth
No, it's because I do not wish to watch highly twisted and extreme liberal jargon.
Soldier-Of-Wasteland
Mephistopheles
+40|7085|Land of the Very Cold

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
That"s because you're not open-minded enough, and scared of the truth
No, it's because I do not wish to watch highly twisted and extreme liberal jargon.
That's what I said, too close-minded, lol. But you don't mind paying lots and lots and lots of taxes to fund the war heheh.
Anyhow, i'm off. No point in debating here. Go and enjoy your expensive system.

Last edited by Soldier-Of-Wasteland (2008-02-04 21:37:48)

Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|7123|San Francisco

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:


I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
That"s because you're not open-minded enough, and scared of the truth
No, it's because I do not wish to watch highly twisted and extreme liberal jargon.
I wonder what highly twisted conservative jargon was used to make you think that way.  The whole idea about critical thinking is to grant you the ability to actively look and understand the other side, no matter if it's the truth or propaganda.  This gives you the ability to seek our more information on your own side and form an educated opinion, rather than just hating something because "everyone else" tells you to do so.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:


I will not ever watch a movie directed by Michael Moore.
That"s because you're not open-minded enough, and scared of the truth
No, it's because I do not wish to watch highly twisted and extreme liberal jargon.
heh, maybe your like that guy on the anti-Moore website, who asked for donations and had to shut down his website so he could afford an operation that he needed


*Moore sent the money anonymously
Sgt.Gene
...
+215|7193

Locoloki wrote:

adopt canada or europeans system, what the doctors are suddenly going to become less skilled?
No.

The main reason is because people will abuse it too much. I have a friend that abuses his medicare. (btw its funded by the state not him) his mom makes him go to the doctors for the stupidest things such as having diarrhea or a sore throat.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

adopt canada or europeans system, what the doctors are suddenly going to become less skilled?
No.

The main reason is because people will abuse it too much. I have a friend that abuses his medicare. (btw its funded by the state not him) his mom makes him go to the doctors for the stupidest things such as having diarrhea or a sore throat.
k so whats your point? your already paying for your friend to go to the doctors
Sgt.Gene
...
+215|7193

Locoloki wrote:

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

adopt canada or europeans system, what the doctors are suddenly going to become less skilled?
No.

The main reason is because people will abuse it too much. I have a friend that abuses his medicare. (btw its funded by the state not him) his mom makes him go to the doctors for the stupidest things such as having diarrhea or a sore throat.
k so whats your point? your already paying for your friend to go to the doctors
Im just saying if we adopted a healthcare system like canada or the EU more people would abuse it.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

Sgt.Gene wrote:


No.

The main reason is because people will abuse it too much. I have a friend that abuses his medicare. (btw its funded by the state not him) his mom makes him go to the doctors for the stupidest things such as having diarrhea or a sore throat.
k so whats your point? your already paying for your friend to go to the doctors
Im just saying if we adopted a healthcare system like canada or the EU more people would abuse it.
do you really think that? what are you afraid of? your going to get sick and youll have to wait in line behind 2 other people? I seriously doubt people are going to abuse the system by lopping off digits, burning themselves,impaling themselves, getting into more auto-wrecks, or any other e-room procedure. If you want to go wait in line for 2 hours because you got a head cold thats your problem
Sgt.Gene
...
+215|7193

Locoloki wrote:

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:


k so whats your point? your already paying for your friend to go to the doctors
Im just saying if we adopted a healthcare system like canada or the EU more people would abuse it.
do you really think that? what are you afraid of? your going to get sick and youll have to wait in line behind 2 other people? I seriously doubt people are going to abuse the system by lopping off digits, burning themselves,impaling themselves, getting into more auto-wrecks, or any other e-room procedure. If you want to go wait in line for 2 hours because you got a head cold thats your problem
Believe it or not I know a lot of people that go to the hospital because they have a cold. Pretty ridiculous tbh.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

Sgt.Gene wrote:


Im just saying if we adopted a healthcare system like canada or the EU more people would abuse it.
do you really think that? what are you afraid of? your going to get sick and youll have to wait in line behind 2 other people? I seriously doubt people are going to abuse the system by lopping off digits, burning themselves,impaling themselves, getting into more auto-wrecks, or any other e-room procedure. If you want to go wait in line for 2 hours because you got a head cold thats your problem
Believe it or not I know a lot of people that go to the hospital because they have a cold. Pretty ridiculous tbh.
yeah, but do you think i feel bad if they have to wait longer?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6840|'Murka

Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:

That's what I said, too close-minded, lol. But you don't mind paying lots and lots and lots of taxes to fund the war heheh.
Anyhow, i'm off. No point in debating here. Go and enjoy your expensive system.
There was a tax increase to pay for the war? Did I miss it?

UHS won't work until there is tort reform. Without limits on lawsuits and the ability to throw out frivolous suits, the costs of healthcare will continue to rise, making UHS an unaffordable albatross that will make Social Security look like a well-oiled machine. But the problem is that those who are pushing for UHS don't want tort reform, and those that want tort reform don't want UHS. Mainly because if there were effective tort reform, a UHS might not look so appealing.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7078

Sgt.Gene wrote:

Locoloki wrote:

Sgt.Gene wrote:


Im just saying if we adopted a healthcare system like canada or the EU more people would abuse it.
do you really think that? what are you afraid of? your going to get sick and youll have to wait in line behind 2 other people? I seriously doubt people are going to abuse the system by lopping off digits, burning themselves,impaling themselves, getting into more auto-wrecks, or any other e-room procedure. If you want to go wait in line for 2 hours because you got a head cold thats your problem
Believe it or not I know a lot of people that go to the hospital because they have a cold. Pretty ridiculous tbh.
Then you should probably start killing off your friends.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6715
It's one of those great arguments about UHC that just won't die. The utterly perplexing idea that UHC will cost more money.

If a UHC system was introduced that was even within earshot of sanity then the cost for US healthcare will HALVE. That's right, US healhtcare cost per person are approximately twice the next most expensive system. Yes people, stop, take a deep breath and think about DIVIDING THE COST OF HEALTHCARE BY 2. This is the cost of UHC. You will be forced to save lots of money. Why is this the case? well running thousands of different insurance companies each with hundreds of different policies means a whole dirty great big stack of paperwork. The per person costs of running Americas healthcare system amount to 30% of the total costs. The amount spend on administering the US healthcare system per person is roughly 10 times the per person admin costs under most UHC systems. Add in advertising, profits and CEO pay and you start to find out why the system cost so damned much. Nothing to do with actual healthcare.

But, this isn't really a fair comparison. In countries with UHC there is no monetary penalty to seeking healthcare, yet investigations and polls show that nearly 1 in 3 Americans have avoided seeking medical help for a serious injury or illness due to the costs. Not only is the US system by far the most expensive, it's not helping as many people! Oh and this has a 'hidden' cost to is as, when combined with the lack of paid sick leave, people are forced to work while ill, thusly spreading the illness to the rest of the staff, the results are estimated to cost US businesses billions a year. It appears that sick leave is starting to be addressed though.

Next up comes the funding sourcing. As we all know, tax revenue comes predominatly from the rich and from businesses. This is where the money that will fund healthcare will be coming from. Yes it will cost businesses and rich people more money, but it will slash the costs of healthcare for the vast majority of the populace.

Moving onto the relative costs between nations. As we all know, the same amount of money goes alot further in the US than it does in the countries being compaired to, predominanty in Europe. Americans have higher purchasing power. This means that the costs of healthcare should also be lower as the staff, facilities, medicines should all be able to be produced at less costs. Healthcare in America should be cheaper than in Europe.

So all in all how much more expensive is corporate healthcare than public healthcare? The admin makes it about twice as expensive, then to cover those who don't actuall seek medical attention due to costs that UHC is treating and the differences in buying power between the US and Europe and we are looking more realistically at 3 times more expensive than UHC.

How will this translate to the average American? Divide it by about 2 for the inherent saving of UHC (including the fact that many people already have a government healthcare plan in the form or medicare). A progressive taxation payment system will further slash cost to the average American by around 70%.

Overall the country should easily see heralthcare costs halved whereas the average American should see theit healthcare bill slashed to around a fifth of the current cost. For business is should be fairly neutral as the overall lowering in costs will be offset by having to pay a larger percentage of the costs. This will also be balanced by the populace having more money to spend, stimulating demand which is obviously good for business.

Obviously this doesn't cover the other arguemnts against UHC such as percieved reductions in choice, constitutional issues, the notion that the US government is unable to run anything within an earshot of sanity etc. This is purely about the costs of UHC, They are lower, way way lower than private healthcare costs.

{Edit I guess the earshot of sanity argument would have some merit if Hillary gets elected}

Last edited by PureFodder (2008-02-05 07:01:55)

specialistx2324
hahahahahhaa
+244|7118|arica harbour

devilcat wrote:

Bill and Hilary back in the White House, were all doomed
doomed, man u must be smokin something. i may not be a political minded person but i know this, the unemployment rate was super low when Bill was in command. look at the bush before him and the bush now. and no i am not kissing up to the Clintons but the number of created jobs is only 75% less than it was back in the early 90's. has clinton created problems in this country , absolutely. but it was better back then than now, and any hard working american can attest to this.

look at how many of Bush's advisors steped down from office. they are just poring the mess to someone else and just running away. As my best friend said "the Bush administration are just rats jumping off the sinking ship"

the first Bush caused the US to go to fight the Iraquis,  the tard of a Bush now, cant finish it. and for what. " Freedom for iraquis" he says over and over. what about freedom for the Russians who suffered for almost a century of Communist rule, or free Afghanistans who are controlled mainly through fear via talaban, or free  Somalia or Sudan who are under civil war and human rights violations, what about freedom for the Cubans. 

why is gas so damn high. I live in an area where gas is close to the $4.00/gallon mark. its war tax. and as long as the saudis and the middle eastern terrorist control oil production and distribution, they got the US and every damn country in the world by the balls. Sad to say but thats the painful truth.

I am neither a republican or democrat, and yes both sides have done bad things, no side is perfect, but then again i would choose the lesser of the two evils.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7073
a president could only do so much, this aint nazi germany for gods sake.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7264|Kubra, Damn it!

I figured the neocons would be all over this. It's basically a proposal to force people to pay for their own healthcare rather than taking it from everyone else's tax money.

I also love how one person is called the devil for making people responsible for themselves, but another is merely called incompetent for sending Americans to die in an unjust war without the proper equipment while also reducing veterans' benefits.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6816

chittydog wrote:

I figured the neocons would be all over this. It's basically a proposal to force people to pay for their own healthcare rather than taking it from everyone else's tax money.
I have seen only 3 people who can be classified as even remotely conservative in this thread. In truth, what has happened is this thread has brought the morons from the rest of the forum into this topic and then they started to spew bull shit with the opinion that watching a Michael Moore film maxes you a expert on the fucking topic.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7069|Your moms bedroom

Commie Killer wrote:

chittydog wrote:

I figured the neocons would be all over this. It's basically a proposal to force people to pay for their own healthcare rather than taking it from everyone else's tax money.
I have seen only 3 people who can be classified as even remotely conservative in this thread. In truth, what has happened is this thread has brought the morons from the rest of the forum into this topic and then they started to spew bull shit with the opinion that watching a Michael Moore film maxes you a expert on the fucking topic.
is there a pro-health insurance movie i can watch?
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|7189|San Antonio, Texas
I found this funny:

https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8516/15918446da2.png

Anyways, as I've said I know that our current system it not flawless but I think it's better then the socialist path of UHC. I think if we introduce UHC it will be in the form of another legal Ponzi scheme just like our Social Security is today. Hospitals will soon become over crowed, doctors would either quit or move to another country because of more BS lawsuits or better pay. And our high standards of procedures will drop.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7073
so if we have universal healthcare hospitals will be over crowded?  so, if we dont, people arent going to get sick as much?  or, people are still gonna be sick and instead of overloaded hospitals, we'll overloaded cemeteries.
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|7189|San Antonio, Texas

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

so if we have universal healthcare hospitals will be over crowded?  so, if we dont, people arent going to get sick as much?
People are going to get sick the same amount whither or not we start UHC. But since everyone would be covered, they would go into the hospital for minor things like the common cold or a sore back thus over working the staff and facilities.

or, people are still gonna be sick and instead of overloaded hospitals, we'll overloaded cemeteries.
That would help over-crowding...

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