Pages: 1 2 3 … 5

 

2008-02-12 01:00:32
liquix
Member
+51|6882|Peoples Republic of Portland
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862.

If only we had a leader of this caliber today eh? I often wonder why rhetoric has fallen out of style in favor of childish jabs and southern slang, from a president mind you.
2008-02-12 01:49:13
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6839|'Murka

I would say that rhetoric has devolved from eloquent speech into the type of language you describe. Just watch the news and see what they refer to as "rhetoric" today...it's utterly inane.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-02-12 10:32:24
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7143|US
When the President suspends basic civil liberties, you can thank him for being like Abe...
Lincoln wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
2008-02-12 10:42:50
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

RAIMIUS wrote:

When the President suspends basic civil liberties, you can thank him for being like Abe...
Lincoln wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You might want to add during a time of civil war. The constitution would not exist if the Union were to have fallen apart.

Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "
http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 20:24:55
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

When the President suspends basic civil liberties, you can thank him for being like Abe...
Lincoln wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You might want to add during a time of civil war. The constitution would not exist if the Union were to have fallen apart.

Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "
http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html
Apparently, Lincoln extended that idea to cover exiling opponents.  For the tip of the iceberg, I dug this clip up....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-VQpY1NJM

Calling The Mob Returns....   I know he can elaborate further on this....
2008-02-12 20:37:53
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

RAIMIUS wrote:

When the President suspends basic civil liberties, you can thank him for being like Abe...
Lincoln wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You might want to add during a time of civil war. The constitution would not exist if the Union were to have fallen apart.

Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "
http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html
Apparently, Lincoln extended that idea to cover exiling opponents.  For the tip of the iceberg, I dug this clip up....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-VQpY1NJM

Calling The Mob Returns....   I know he can elaborate further on this....
Lincoln was acting within his power granted by the constitution to preserve the Union. I'm against suspending Habeas corpus today. You'd be insane to think we are in any way the same situation that Lincoln was in. He is a Fox News talking head... shame on you .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 20:39:46
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina
I afford no president at any time the ability to lock up political opponents.  Lincoln was a tyrant.
2008-02-12 20:47:09
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

I afford no president at any time the ability to lock up political opponents.  Lincoln was a tyrant.
lol..k
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 20:49:30
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina
Seriously....  What good is a union without freedoms?  The Bill of Rights are more important than America remaining one nation.  The only reason the states united in the first place was because it wasn't economically feasible to be 13 separate entities.   Nowadays, we could actually have 5 or 6 independent nations and be mostly better off that way.
2008-02-12 20:57:56
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Seriously....  What good is a union without freedoms?  The Bill of Rights are more important than America remaining one nation.  The only reason the states united in the first place was because it wasn't economically feasible to be 13 separate entities.   Nowadays, we could actually have 5 or 6 independent nations and be mostly better off that way.
First you are jumping to the conclusion that Lincoln took away all freedoms. You are looking at one act in the most extreme and desperate situation our nation has ever faced. What Lincoln did was legal and understandable. He signed the emancipation proclamation and you declare this guy an enemy of freedom? If you are making a case that the United States should have never grown to where it is then say it. But when the U.S. was formed it was founded on a constitution that allowed a president to take steps to preserve the union. You offer a Fox News shill as a spokesman for civil liberties? How about the fact that both liberals and conservatives alike all rank Lincoln as the greatest President we have ever had? Lincoln did more to promote long term freedom than any other President.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 21:01:48
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Seriously....  What good is a union without freedoms?  The Bill of Rights are more important than America remaining one nation.  The only reason the states united in the first place was because it wasn't economically feasible to be 13 separate entities.   Nowadays, we could actually have 5 or 6 independent nations and be mostly better off that way.
First you are jumping to the conclusion that Lincoln took away all freedoms. You are looking at one act in the most extreme and desperate situation our nation has ever faced. What Lincoln did was legal and understandable. He signed the emancipation proclamation and you declare this guy an enemy of freedom? If you are making a case that the United States should have never grown to where it is then say it. But when the U.S. was formed it was founded on a constitution that allowed a president to take steps to preserve the union. You offer a Fox News shill as a spokesman for civil liberties? How about the fact that both liberals and conservatives alike all rank Lincoln as the greatest President we have ever had? Lincoln did more to promote long term freedom than any other President.
He also helped carpetbag the hell out of the South and ensured many generations of Southern whites would remain in poverty.  He also was part of Reconstruction, a program that effectively created an environment of hate against blacks because of the resentment it caused from appointing blacks to offices.

So no, he ensured only three things: racial conflict and poverty in the South, and profits for Northern industrialists.....

Most of these rankings are dominated by historians in the North.  I think you'll find a very different picture from Southern historians.
2008-02-12 21:10:34
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Seriously....  What good is a union without freedoms?  The Bill of Rights are more important than America remaining one nation.  The only reason the states united in the first place was because it wasn't economically feasible to be 13 separate entities.   Nowadays, we could actually have 5 or 6 independent nations and be mostly better off that way.
First you are jumping to the conclusion that Lincoln took away all freedoms. You are looking at one act in the most extreme and desperate situation our nation has ever faced. What Lincoln did was legal and understandable. He signed the emancipation proclamation and you declare this guy an enemy of freedom? If you are making a case that the United States should have never grown to where it is then say it. But when the U.S. was formed it was founded on a constitution that allowed a president to take steps to preserve the union. You offer a Fox News shill as a spokesman for civil liberties? How about the fact that both liberals and conservatives alike all rank Lincoln as the greatest President we have ever had? Lincoln did more to promote long term freedom than any other President.
He also helped carpetbag the hell out of the South and ensured many generations of Southern whites would remain in poverty.  He also was part of Reconstruction, a program that effectively created an environment of hate against blacks because of the resentment it caused from appointing blacks to offices.

So no, he ensured only three things: racial conflict and poverty in the South, and profits for Northern industrialists.....

Most of these rankings are dominated by historians in the North.  I think you'll find a very different picture from Southern historians.
lol.. those polls are all over the place. He was also responsible for the homestead act which created over 372,000 farms. I'm betting the freed slaves were ok with the "racial conflict". You do know that Lincoln was from the south right? You really need to look at what you just wrote. Of course there was resentment when slave owners were forced to free their slaves and give them those wonderful civil liberties you enjoy.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 21:12:11
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

RAIMIUS wrote:

When the President suspends basic civil liberties, you can thank him for being like Abe...
Lincoln wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
but treason is?
2008-02-12 21:15:21
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

lol.. those polls are all over the place. He was also responsible for the homestead act which created over 372,000 farms. I'm betting the freed slaves were ok with the "racial conflict". You do know that Lincoln was from the south right? You really need to look at what you just wrote. Of course there was resentment when slave owners were forced to free their slaves and give them (the slaves) those wonderful civil liberties you enjoy.
The vast majority of whites in the South didn't own slaves.  They lived only marginally better than slaves as well.   In fact, the average white and black in the North was practically a slave working in the factory economies of the North.

The Civil War wasn't about race or slavery.  It was two camps of rich people that pitted their poor against each other.  The North won, so the rich of the North exploited the fuck out of the South while liberating the slaves to make it look like they were being moral.

Of course, freedom from slavery doesn't mean much when the KKK keeps you living in fear.  You might as well just have remained a slave.  But the North really didn't give two shits about blacks anymore than the white slaveowners did.  Blacks were essentially collateral to them.
2008-02-12 21:16:09
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6875|Chicago, IL

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Seriously....  What good is a union without freedoms?  The Bill of Rights are more important than America remaining one nation.  The only reason the states united in the first place was because it wasn't economically feasible to be 13 separate entities.   Nowadays, we could actually have 5 or 6 independent nations and be mostly better off that way.
First you are jumping to the conclusion that Lincoln took away all freedoms. You are looking at one act in the most extreme and desperate situation our nation has ever faced. What Lincoln did was legal and understandable. He signed the emancipation proclamation and you declare this guy an enemy of freedom? If you are making a case that the United States should have never grown to where it is then say it. But when the U.S. was formed it was founded on a constitution that allowed a president to take steps to preserve the union. You offer a Fox News shill as a spokesman for civil liberties? How about the fact that both liberals and conservatives alike all rank Lincoln as the greatest President we have ever had? Lincoln did more to promote long term freedom than any other President.
He also helped carpetbag the hell out of the South and ensured many generations of Southern whites would remain in poverty.  He also was part of Reconstruction, a program that effectively created an environment of hate against blacks because of the resentment it caused from appointing blacks to offices.

So no, he ensured only three things: racial conflict and poverty in the South, and profits for Northern industrialists.....

Most of these rankings are dominated by historians in the North.  I think you'll find a very different picture from Southern historians.
Part of reconstruction?

The civil war ended on April 9th, Lincoln was killed April 15th.  Andrew Johnson became president, and was essentially a puppet of the senate for his whole presidency.  It was Johnson's lack of ability to follow Lincoln's original plan that led to the fiasco of reconstruction.
2008-02-12 21:18:14
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


First you are jumping to the conclusion that Lincoln took away all freedoms. You are looking at one act in the most extreme and desperate situation our nation has ever faced. What Lincoln did was legal and understandable. He signed the emancipation proclamation and you declare this guy an enemy of freedom? If you are making a case that the United States should have never grown to where it is then say it. But when the U.S. was formed it was founded on a constitution that allowed a president to take steps to preserve the union. You offer a Fox News shill as a spokesman for civil liberties? How about the fact that both liberals and conservatives alike all rank Lincoln as the greatest President we have ever had? Lincoln did more to promote long term freedom than any other President.
He also helped carpetbag the hell out of the South and ensured many generations of Southern whites would remain in poverty.  He also was part of Reconstruction, a program that effectively created an environment of hate against blacks because of the resentment it caused from appointing blacks to offices.

So no, he ensured only three things: racial conflict and poverty in the South, and profits for Northern industrialists.....

Most of these rankings are dominated by historians in the North.  I think you'll find a very different picture from Southern historians.
Part of reconstruction?

The civil war ended on April 9th, Lincoln was killed April 15th.  Andrew Johnson became president, and was essentially a puppet of the senate for his whole presidency.  It was Johnson's lack of ability to follow Lincoln's original plan that led to the fiasco of reconstruction.
True, but much of the plan was all but Reconstruction in name.  There was an idea of empowering blacks, but it was a very short sighted idea considering the backlash it created.  Gradual changes would have been far more logical (and a lot less people would have died from it).
2008-02-12 21:20:13
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072
Lincoln wanted reconciliation.  John Wilkes Booth was worse for the south than any United States Army.
2008-02-12 21:21:15
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Lincoln wanted reconciliation.  John Wilkes Booth was worse for the south than any United States Army.
This much I'll agree with.  Once the war was over, Lincoln had better ideas than Johnson by far.  I'm just arguing that the war never should've happened.
2008-02-12 21:21:23
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, the average white and black in the North was practically a slave working in the factory economies of the North.
.
getting paid.
2008-02-12 21:22:19
David.P
Banned
+649|6702

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, the average white and black in the North was practically a slave working in the factory economies of the North.
.
getting paid.
Laid and Made.
2008-02-12 21:22:29
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

Turquoise wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Lincoln wanted reconciliation.  John Wilkes Booth was worse for the south than any United States Army.
This much I'll agree with.  Once the war was over, Lincoln had better ideas than Johnson by far.  I'm just arguing that the war never should've happened.
The south never should have fired on American soldiers.
2008-02-12 21:23:32
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, the average white and black in the North was practically a slave working in the factory economies of the North.
.
getting paid.
getting paid jack shit...  There's really not much of a difference between slavery and the working conditions of that era.  The only difference is that one is easier to point out as wrongful.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-12 21:24:42)

2008-02-12 21:24:25
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7029|132 and Bush

No the majority of people in the south did not own slaves. But they supported it. Like most wars that are fought, they are fought for a cause.


Lincoln-Douglas debate:
October 15, 1858

That is the real issue. That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time; and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings. It is the same principle in whatever shape it develops itself. It is the same spirit that says, "You work and toil and earn bread, and I'll eat it." No matter in what shape it comes, whether from the mouth of a king who seeks to bestride the people of his own nation and live by the fruit of their labor, or from one race of men as an apology for enslaving another race, it is the same tyrannical principle.

Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio

September 17, 1859

I think Slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union.


October 15, 1858

And when this new principle [that African Americans were not covered by the phrase "all men are created equal"] -- this new proposition that no human being ever thought of three years ago, -- is brought forward, I combat it as having an evil tendency, if not an evil design; I combat it as having a tendency to dehumanize the negro -- to take away from him the right of ever striving to be a man. I combat it as being one of the thousand things constantly done in these days to prepare the public mind to make property, and nothing but property of the negro in all the States of the Union.

Lincoln To Henry L. Pierce
April 6, 1859

This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave. Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.

August 1, 1858

As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy.

He opened the eyes of a great many people... whether you are prepared to admit it or not.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-02-12 21:24:38
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

Turquoise wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, the average white and black in the North was practically a slave working in the factory economies of the North.
.
getting paid.
getting paid jack shit...
better than a slave drivers whip
2008-02-12 21:27:12
David.P
Banned
+649|6702
Kmar right and wrong are all a matter of perspective. Only thing true is death it solves all problems(other than where to build new cemeteries)

 

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