V for Vendetta was a stupid movie.
LOL, there are many disturbing things, and Islamic radicalism isn't one of them, just apparently someone learning your grandmas apple pie recipe. gotta stick to those priorities.IRONCHEF wrote:
They are not following the FISA guidelines..they've outright abandoned them making the semi-unconstitutional eavesdropping ability completely illegal. Adding domestic spying (not the international communications) makes it 100%, completely unconstitutional. Please show me where I and millions of Americans are wrong in believing that spying on our own is ok?FEOS wrote:
If there actually were destruction of the Constitution, then no, I wouldn't be cool with it. The bottom line is that everything done under FISA is completely in line with both the Constitution and other laws.
Whether there is a warrant or not, it doesn't change the restrictions on the intelligence community regarding collection on US Persons.
Lowing,
There are many disturbing things, I've listed one. How is this a priority thing? Need more Islamofascist threads or something you friggen retard? NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY has the right to listen to MY phone calls, or your phone calls. That should mean something to you.
KJ...what was your point?
All Tice said in that interview was that there was potential for abuse. Not necessarily a revelation, as there is ALWAYS potential for abuse. Potential does not equate to "in actuality".
All Tice said in that interview was that there was potential for abuse. Not necessarily a revelation, as there is ALWAYS potential for abuse. Potential does not equate to "in actuality".
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
code pinkGunSlinger OIF II wrote:
V for Vendetta was a stupid movie.
Tice alleged illegal eavesdropping activities, not simply potential for abuse. My point is that wiretaps not concerning terrorist activity (therefore illegal) have been implemented before regarding domestic spying. There is actual abuse, and those analyzing a lot of intelligence are more and more becoming private citizens/for profit corporations - not government officials bound by certain ethics and/or laws. There is historical precedent (of illegal wiretapping domestically) of abuse for political gain. It's not far-fetched to believe it is happening now and people should be concerned.FEOS wrote:
KJ...what was your point?
All Tice said in that interview was that there was potential for abuse. Not necessarily a revelation, as there is ALWAYS potential for abuse. Potential does not equate to "in actuality".
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-02-13 19:34:03)
I guess legalistically speaking, you are correct. However, I think we need to remove that clause. There should NEVER be a case where habeas corpus should be legally allowed to be suspended. I don't care if it's a fucking alien attack we're fighting. Without habeas corpus, a justice system has no worth, and neither does any government or nation.Kmarion wrote:
Oh god, not Lincoln again. How in the hell can any rational person compare the two situations? Section Nine, clause Two of our constitution.motherdear wrote:
okay you say that bush has been the only president undermining the constitution and ignoring it, try and read up on the civil war and lincoln and then i might speak with you. sometimes things like these are justified, firstly only terror related persons/conversations can be monitere and if they hear non terror related crimes it can not be used in court. also even though most people do not think so we are at war, if we do not try and fight this war, then the next thing that might happen is a dirty bomb/nuke going of in new york or another big city. people do not imagine it they imagine a small bomb or something similar, but if the terrorist ever get their hands on a wmd then they will use it.
bush might have done some stupid things i agree with that but i don't believe all this shit about it not being well ment, and all the conspiracies going a round they are absolute bullshit to be honest.
sorry if i offended you but i just hate all this conspiracy bullshit and that people are so ignorant that they do not realise that we can't ignore these people and that they will do whatever they can to harm us.
http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html Lincoln was in bounds, Bush ... not so much.
Two very different scenarios.
The point is this... In both Bush's case and Lincoln's, things were done to tear down freedoms for some false sense of security. Whenever that's done, it is the mark of a tyrant. There is absolutely no threat on Earth that can justify these sorts of things. Security is worthless if freedom is gone.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-13 21:18:25)
At the very least you must admit there is a huge difference in justification. That is what I was addressing.
The International Emergency Economic Powers Act was one of my personal favorites also.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 8#p1618358
The International Emergency Economic Powers Act was one of my personal favorites also.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 8#p1618358
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Of course... There is obviously a huge difference between a Civil War and terrorism. I'm just saying that what both Bush and Lincoln did was wrong in my eyes.Kmarion wrote:
At the very least you must admit there is a huge difference in justification. That is what I was addressing.
The International Emergency Economic Powers Act was one of my personal favorites also.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 8#p1618358
Those contractors are bound by the exact same laws and ethics. They are NATIONAL LAW, not military guidelines. The use of contractors vice government civilians or military members for many things (not just intel) is a whole other topic.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Tice alleged illegal eavesdropping activities, not simply potential for abuse. My point is that wiretaps not concerning terrorist activity (therefore illegal) have been implemented before regarding domestic spying. There is actual abuse, and those analyzing a lot of intelligence are more and more becoming private citizens/for profit corporations - not government officials bound by certain ethics and/or laws. There is historical precedent (of illegal wiretapping domestically) of abuse for political gain. It's not far-fetched to believe it is happening now and people should be concerned.FEOS wrote:
KJ...what was your point?
All Tice said in that interview was that there was potential for abuse. Not necessarily a revelation, as there is ALWAYS potential for abuse. Potential does not equate to "in actuality".
In reading his accusations, he never says anything illegal actually happened, only that there was potential for abuse. The reporter writing the story called the activities illegal, not Tice...at the "non-biased" Democracy Now! site, at least.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Meh, not the first time -I seem to remember back in WWII people (Japanese) here in the US being rounded up and being put in camps. We are at war and the President is trying to do what is best for the country as a whole.IRONCHEF wrote:
I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night and was amazed yet again how close our country is like to that Orwellian fabricated UK (obviously ...... ...... virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.[/i]
Discuss.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I've often wondered, why the Japaneese-Americans and not the Italian-Americans or German-Americans?DBBrinson1 wrote:
Meh, not the first time -I seem to remember back in WWII people (Japanese) here in the US being rounded up and being put in camps. We are at war and the President is trying to do what is best for the country as a whole.IRONCHEF wrote:
I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night and was amazed yet again how close our country is like to that Orwellian fabricated UK (obviously ...... ...... virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.[/i]
Discuss.
For the Germans, most "loyal Germans" returned to Germany in the previous 10 years. The rest were more than happy to sign up and serve in the US. There still were many cases of careers ruined and families scapegoated in the US because of their German heritage, as well as genuine cases of espionage and sabatoge by German sympathizers living here.PureFodder wrote:
I've often wondered, why the Japaneese-Americans and not the Italian-Americans or German-Americans?
Better reason is that its much harder to profile a white guy, and if you wanted to round up the Italians and Germans, you'd have to fence in a reservation the size of Texas to hold them all.
As for the OP...
4th Amendment is officially, legally, fully DOA as of yesterday and can't be brought back. Democracy is dead, long live democracy!
Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-02-14 06:50:23)
Yea... Wierd huh? I suspect that the Japaneese were relatively easy to single out of a crowd.PureFodder wrote:
I've often wondered, why the Japaneese-Americans and not the Italian-Americans or German-Americans?DBBrinson1 wrote:
Meh, not the first time -I seem to remember back in WWII people (Japanese) here in the US being rounded up and being put in camps. We are at war and the President is trying to do what is best for the country as a whole.IRONCHEF wrote:
I happened to watch V for Vendetta again the other night and was amazed yet again how close our country is like to that Orwellian fabricated UK (obviously ...... ...... virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.[/i]
Discuss.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Or it could have been that whole "Pearl Harbor" thing.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Yea... Wierd huh? I suspect that the Japaneese were relatively easy to single out of a crowd.PureFodder wrote:
I've often wondered, why the Japaneese-Americans and not the Italian-Americans or German-Americans?DBBrinson1 wrote:
Meh, not the first time -I seem to remember back in WWII people (Japanese) here in the US being rounded up and being put in camps. We are at war and the President is trying to do what is best for the country as a whole.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US a few days later.Or it could have been that whole "Pearl Harbor" thing.
So the question remains - why round up the Japs and not the Germans and Italians?
Just a pointer for our US members:-
Europeans regard imposition of identity cards and blanket unaccountable surveillance as the first steps towards a totalitarian society, in the same way as Americans regard abrogation of the constitution - particularly the 2nd amendment - as the road to hell.
It seems strange to us you're happy to be surveiled, and show ID every time you buy a beer, while clinging to your right to bear arms.
I guess you view us the same way - hope it clarifies the polarisation of the argument here.
Fuck Israel
Despite National Lampoon's version of history...the Germans did NOT attack Pearl Harbor. Neither did the Italians.Dilbert_X wrote:
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US a few days later.Or it could have been that whole "Pearl Harbor" thing.
So the question remains - why round up the Japs and not the Germans and Italians?
The Japanese did.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Yea.. Let's just say for the sake of argument that the Japanese Americans were locked up because of Pearl Harbor.. Then to make Ironchef's post correct, Bush should have locked up all American Muslims after 9-11.FEOS wrote:
Despite National Lampoon's version of history...the Germans did NOT attack Pearl Harbor. Neither did the Italians.Dilbert_X wrote:
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US a few days later.Or it could have been that whole "Pearl Harbor" thing.
So the question remains - why round up the Japs and not the Germans and Italians?
The Japanese did.
*edit speeling
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-02-15 12:36:06)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Yep. The difference is that the Japanese brought the fight to our country, where the Italians and Germans just fought us in Europe.FEOS wrote:
Despite National Lampoon's version of history...the Germans did NOT attack Pearl Harbor. Neither did the Italians.Dilbert_X wrote:
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US a few days later.Or it could have been that whole "Pearl Harbor" thing.
So the question remains - why round up the Japs and not the Germans and Italians?
The Japanese did.
Lol, My Girfriend called me from Germany while she was there. I decided to ramble off a few choice words: Jihad, allah ackbar, terrorism, etc.
I'll be at Gitmo, hold my calls please.
I'll be at Gitmo, hold my calls please.
But the perk still sucks... Last stand would've been better.
Thats the dumbest argument yet.Despite National Lampoon's version of history...the Germans did NOT attack Pearl Harbor. Neither did the Italians.
The Japanese did.
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US but it takes an actual attack to require action?
The US locked up all the Japanese, why not the Germans, Italians and Muslims then?Then to make Ironchef's post correct, Bush should have locked up all American Muslims after 9-11.
The point is there was no point in locking up the Japs.
Fuck Israel
locking up Americans with Japanese ancestory was a major black mark in American history. It scarred our nation along with the treatment of the native Americans, and pre-civil rights history.
As far as the OP goes, I don't see what the big deal about getting a warrant is.
Fuck Israel
The anger and paranoia were directed at those similar to the ones who attacked us at the time. It's not a dumb argument...it's historical fact.Dilbert_X wrote:
Thats the dumbest argument yet.Despite National Lampoon's version of history...the Germans did NOT attack Pearl Harbor. Neither did the Italians.
The Japanese did.
The Germans and Italians declared war on the US but it takes an actual attack to require action?
No one is arguing that there was a valid point in locking up the Japanese.Dilbert_X wrote:
The US locked up all the Japanese, why not the Germans, Italians and Muslims then?Then to make Ironchef's post correct, Bush should have locked up all American Muslims after 9-11.
The point is there was no point in locking up the Japs.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Two names:
Woodrow Wilson
Woodrow Wilson