AutralianChainsaw wrote:
It's because of the victims. These people are in charge of the mainstream media around the world so they make sure that you never forget. They make movies about it, documentary, front page of papers etc.. They are powerful lobbyists who pushes to pass law against free speech so in some countries you go to jail just because you talk about it.
We shouldn't forget what happened, what's your point? And you go to jail for denying it, not for talking about it.
When the victims have no power, they remain victims and they are forgotten. For example, take the genocide of the natives here in America. We killed millions of them, we put them into reserves and a lot of them are still there today. Yet the only thing they have for them today for reparation is that they pay no taxes. You can argue about the number of killed, the way they were killed or if it was a good thing or not without a fear of being prosecuted for "hate speech".
The genocide of the natives in the Americas is by far the worst genocide of all times. Think about it for a minute.. They don't even have their own land now.
That shouldn't be forgotten either. But you can't say we should forget the Holocaust just because IN YOUR OPINION other Genocides were worse.
For that i say yes.. Germany should stop feeling guilty like France, England and Spain never really felt guilty for what they have done to the natives.
Germany can stop feeling guilty, but the Holocaust can't be forgotten.
Poll
Is Germany being too politically correct?
| Yes | 62% | 62% - 54 | ||||
| No | 11% | 11% - 10 | ||||
| I have no idea what you're talking about. | 25% | 25% - 22 | ||||
| Total: 86 | ||||||
I was responding to Konfusion's post about why we only hear about that genocide and we barely hear about the other genocides. I do not suggest that we should forget any genocide including the holocaust.sergeriver wrote:
AutralianChainsaw wrote:
It's because of the victims. These people are in charge of the mainstream media around the world so they make sure that you never forget. They make movies about it, documentary, front page of papers etc.. They are powerful lobbyists who pushes to pass law against free speech so in some countries you go to jail just because you talk about it.
We shouldn't forget what happened, what's your point? And you go to jail for denying it, not for talking about it.
When the victims have no power, they remain victims and they are forgotten. For example, take the genocide of the natives here in America. We killed millions of them, we put them into reserves and a lot of them are still there today. Yet the only thing they have for them today for reparation is that they pay no taxes. You can argue about the number of killed, the way they were killed or if it was a good thing or not without a fear of being prosecuted for "hate speech".
The genocide of the natives in the Americas is by far the worst genocide of all times. Think about it for a minute.. They don't even have their own land now.
That shouldn't be forgotten either. But you can't say we should forget the Holocaust just because IN YOUR OPINION other Genocides were worse.
For that i say yes.. Germany should stop feeling guilty like France, England and Spain never really felt guilty for what they have done to the natives.
Germany can stop feeling guilty, but the Holocaust can't be forgotten.
Where did you get that you go to jail if you talk about the Holocaust? You go to jail if you deny it.AutralianChainsaw wrote:
I was responding to Konfusion's post about why we only hear about that genocide and we barely hear about the other genocides. I do not suggest that we should forget any genocide including the holocaust.sergeriver wrote:
AutralianChainsaw wrote:
It's because of the victims. These people are in charge of the mainstream media around the world so they make sure that you never forget. They make movies about it, documentary, front page of papers etc.. They are powerful lobbyists who pushes to pass law against free speech so in some countries you go to jail just because you talk about it.
We shouldn't forget what happened, what's your point? And you go to jail for denying it, not for talking about it.
When the victims have no power, they remain victims and they are forgotten. For example, take the genocide of the natives here in America. We killed millions of them, we put them into reserves and a lot of them are still there today. Yet the only thing they have for them today for reparation is that they pay no taxes. You can argue about the number of killed, the way they were killed or if it was a good thing or not without a fear of being prosecuted for "hate speech".
The genocide of the natives in the Americas is by far the worst genocide of all times. Think about it for a minute.. They don't even have their own land now.
That shouldn't be forgotten either. But you can't say we should forget the Holocaust just because IN YOUR OPINION other Genocides were worse.
For that i say yes.. Germany should stop feeling guilty like France, England and Spain never really felt guilty for what they have done to the natives.
Germany can stop feeling guilty, but the Holocaust can't be forgotten.
You go to jail in Turkey if you talk about the Armenian genocide.
That being said, if we're comparing genocides, the Japanese killed more people than Hitler during WW2. Also, Stalin killed more people.
Chairman Mao was indirectly responsible for killing about 100 million people. Pol Pot killed plenty in his own right.
I just find it odd that the Holocaust is treated like it's worse than these other atrocities. The Holocaust is indeed the best documented genocide in history, and it would seem this is a lot of the reason why it is emphasized the way it is.
Again, I'm not intending to trivialize the Holocaust, but it does seem a bit one-sided for Germany to face a lot of scrutiny while Japan is allowed to keep its children ignorant of their own crimes without much protest.
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
That being said, if we're comparing genocides, the Japanese killed more people than Hitler during WW2. Also, Stalin killed more people.
Chairman Mao was indirectly responsible for killing about 100 million people. Pol Pot killed plenty in his own right.
I just find it odd that the Holocaust is treated like it's worse than these other atrocities. The Holocaust is indeed the best documented genocide in history, and it would seem this is a lot of the reason why it is emphasized the way it is.
Again, I'm not intending to trivialize the Holocaust, but it does seem a bit one-sided for Germany to face a lot of scrutiny while Japan is allowed to keep its children ignorant of their own crimes without much protest.
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-25 09:31:15)
I think it can now be considered a part of history. Nazi Germany is past. No one in political power in Germany today had any responsibility for the government and its descisions during the Nazi regime. Like slavery in America, it is time to let it rest. I do not say to forget about it; indeed, we must look to lessons of the past to prevent similar issues in the future. I do think it is time to let Germany be forgiven- even let them forgive themselves.
As to the Holocost, I do not deny it happened, or that it was a horrible event; but you have to admire the press it received. Hardly anyone has heard about Nanking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre I studied WW2, and I only heard of it because I am engaged to a Chinese woman. Germany has hardly been alone in activities that violate our sensibilities. Japan and America are just of guilty of atrocities in the past, and I am sure you can say the same of most cultures if you look closely enough.
***EDIT: Sorry, I plum forgot about Stalin and the communist purges. Just add it to the list.
As to the Holocost, I do not deny it happened, or that it was a horrible event; but you have to admire the press it received. Hardly anyone has heard about Nanking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre I studied WW2, and I only heard of it because I am engaged to a Chinese woman. Germany has hardly been alone in activities that violate our sensibilities. Japan and America are just of guilty of atrocities in the past, and I am sure you can say the same of most cultures if you look closely enough.
***EDIT: Sorry, I plum forgot about Stalin and the communist purges. Just add it to the list.
Last edited by imortal (2008-02-25 09:33:16)
Talking about it mean denying it, questionning the official number of killed, the way it happened, the reason it happened, etc..sergeriver wrote:
Where did you get that you go to jail if you talk about the Holocaust? You go to jail if you deny it.AutralianChainsaw wrote:
I was responding to Konfusion's post about why we only hear about that genocide and we barely hear about the other genocides. I do not suggest that we should forget any genocide including the holocaust.sergeriver wrote:
Oh, and what about Chile? There they had a dictatorship which resulted in many people "missing" (until today no one knows where to) and tortured. And the guys who did it were not made responsible for it... "Just forget it" was pretty much the message they sent to their people... Why can't we broaden our perspective a bit? Germany really isn't doing that much different from most countries. Chile was more recent - no reaction. Rwanda is still happening. Palestine is still happening. And Kosovo will most likely (it's like a ticking time bomb).
-konfusion
-konfusion
a lot of people arent familiar with indian gaming casinos.
anyone who has been to Ft. Lewis is familiar.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
a lot of people arent familiar with indian gaming casinos.
I know a lot of chumash indians who could buy 5 of me.
Whenever I visit Germany I never get reminded of Nacism. After the ww2 German people were sorry they started the war and were part of it. And then it all changed, then they werent bad anymore, they were just people and so are they now. People like everybody else.
what ? care to elaborate how our citizenship laws are racist ?Turquoise wrote:
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
are you trying to make a point ?GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
a lot of people arent familiar with indian gaming casinos.
there is a difference between talking about the holocaust ( which is perfectly legal, and rightfully so ), and denying it.AutralianChainsaw wrote:
Talking about it mean denying it, questionning the official number of killed, the way it happened, the reason it happened, etc..sergeriver wrote:
Where did you get that you go to jail if you talk about the Holocaust? You go to jail if you deny it.AutralianChainsaw wrote:
I was responding to Konfusion's post about why we only hear about that genocide and we barely hear about the other genocides. I do not suggest that we should forget any genocide including the holocaust.
From what I can tell, the holocaust is one of the best documented industrialized genocides in history. Usually, those who deny it are doing so because of a right-wing agenda, or because they are neo-nazis looking to spread their lies and downplay the horrors of the Nazi regime.
And we pretty much know why and how it happened, I might add.
Could it be that the other genocides mentioned (Nanking, Stalin's, Mao's, Pol Pot's) did not have the stated intention of wiping an entire culture off the face of the earth (or at least a continent)? Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were more about getting rid of potential rivals and non-conformists than eliminating an entire culture. Nanking was just about wanton killing...no rhyme or reason.Turquoise wrote:
I just find it odd that the Holocaust is treated like it's worse than these other atrocities. The Holocaust is indeed the best documented genocide in history, and it would seem this is a lot of the reason why it is emphasized the way it is.
Sadly, I would say the genocide that most closely matches the Holocaust in intent would be our very own against the Indians, followed by ethnic cleansing policies in the Balkans.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Agreed. Worse shit has happened, yet they didn't get any special names like "Holocaust" either. Also, what annoys me is that how people only think it was Jews who were executed. Jews account for only about half of the total people that were killed in camps by the Nazi'sTurquoise wrote:
You go to jail in Turkey if you talk about the Armenian genocide.
That being said, if we're comparing genocides, the Japanese killed more people than Hitler during WW2. Also, Stalin killed more people.
Chairman Mao was indirectly responsible for killing about 100 million people. Pol Pot killed plenty in his own right.
I just find it odd that the Holocaust is treated like it's worse than these other atrocities.
Not taking anything away from the actions of Nazi Germany, but I just think that it's blown out of proportion.
edit: FEOS, I don't really think it matters what the intentions were
Last edited by Mek-Izzle (2008-02-26 03:23:43)
someone said something about indians being treated like shit. about how they are the receiving end of the worst genocide. how they have nothing now.B.Schuss wrote:
are you trying to make a point ?GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
a lot of people arent familiar with indian gaming casinos.
Every indian I know has more money than me and does less. Every member of the tribe gets revenue from Indian Gaming Casinos.
Hmm, millions of deaths, and you want to just sweep it under the carpet?konfusion wrote:
It has been, what, 60 years since the Nazis? Germans still can't speak their mind on medicinal progress, because of the experiments the Nazis did. Every tiny incident involving some teenage punk who thinks it's funny to discriminate against foreign people is blown up into a "Nazi Germany is Back!" story. Jokes are made until today where you call Germans Nazis.
Do they have to be so extremely diplomatic, so that no one will come down on them about how they should be aware of their past? Can't we cut the political correctness for once?
-konfusion
I learned this from a friend of mine that lived in Germany for a while. He was a Bosnian that moved and lived there for like 5 years. He said Germany has multiple levels of citizenship. If you immigrate to Germany, you can never attain the same level of citizenship as someone that was born there.B.Schuss wrote:
what ? care to elaborate how our citizenship laws are racist ?Turquoise wrote:
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
In addition to this, even if you are born in Germany, if your parents are immigrants, then you still can't get the same citizenship as someone who is born in Germany to parents that aren't immigrants.
To me, that is very racist. There should only be one level of citizenship -- legal.
In America, we have green cards and citizenship. Once you go through the right steps, you can become a full citizen with the same rights as someone born here. The only right we don't give to people not born here is the ability to run for president -- which admittedly is also racist.
Their country, their rules. If they want to have multiple levels of citizenship, then so be it. As long as immigrants are informed of the policies beforehand, I have no issue with it. Also, as long as they do not get trapped in a situation there that would resemble involuntary servitude. I know I get upset when "foreigners" try to tell me how America should be run. I am not so much of a hypocryte that I would tell another nation how to conduct its affairs when it does not affect me.Turquoise wrote:
I learned this from a friend of mine that lived in Germany for a while. He was a Bosnian that moved and lived there for like 5 years. He said Germany has multiple levels of citizenship. If you immigrate to Germany, you can never attain the same level of citizenship as someone that was born there.B.Schuss wrote:
what ? care to elaborate how our citizenship laws are racist ?Turquoise wrote:
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
In addition to this, even if you are born in Germany, if your parents are immigrants, then you still can't get the same citizenship as someone who is born in Germany to parents that aren't immigrants.
To me, that is very racist. There should only be one level of citizenship -- legal.
In America, we have green cards and citizenship. Once you go through the right steps, you can become a full citizen with the same rights as someone born here. The only right we don't give to people not born here is the ability to run for president -- which admittedly is also racist.
So please explain just how it's racist that someone born here can't be President?Turquoise wrote:
I learned this from a friend of mine that lived in Germany for a while. He was a Bosnian that moved and lived there for like 5 years. He said Germany has multiple levels of citizenship. If you immigrate to Germany, you can never attain the same level of citizenship as someone that was born there.B.Schuss wrote:
what ? care to elaborate how our citizenship laws are racist ?Turquoise wrote:
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
In addition to this, even if you are born in Germany, if your parents are immigrants, then you still can't get the same citizenship as someone who is born in Germany to parents that aren't immigrants.
To me, that is very racist. There should only be one level of citizenship -- legal.
In America, we have green cards and citizenship. Once you go through the right steps, you can become a full citizen with the same rights as someone born here. The only right we don't give to people not born here is the ability to run for president -- which admittedly is also racist.
There are specific reasons for it...ties to foreign countries/governments, for example. However, I do think that someone who is a naturalized citizen who has been a citizen for a minimum of 35 years and has been fully vetted for security should be eligible. But that would require a change to the Constitution.
Regardless, there's nothing racist about it. It doesn't prevent a black guy while allowing a white guy (or vice versa...or <enter race here>). THAT would be racist. It doesn't allow ANYONE who isn't a natural-born American to hold the office, regardless of their race. It's certainly discriminatory (which is neutral)...but it's absolutely NOT racist.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The swastika is censored from most games dealing with WW2 (even if you're shooting at the guys bearing it) for fear of Germany flipping out. Leaves me to wonder if it's blurred from their history programs.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-02-26 20:08:59)
well, I don't know where your friend got his information from, but let me tell you that he couldn't be more wrong. I know a lot of immigrants who are german citizens now, and hold german passports. If you have that, then you're a german citizen, wether you were born here or not.Turquoise wrote:
I learned this from a friend of mine that lived in Germany for a while. He was a Bosnian that moved and lived there for like 5 years. He said Germany has multiple levels of citizenship. If you immigrate to Germany, you can never attain the same level of citizenship as someone that was born there.B.Schuss wrote:
what ? care to elaborate how our citizenship laws are racist ?Turquoise wrote:
Besides, as I mentioned before, no amount of political correctness will change the racism of Germany's citizenship policies. If anyone wants to criticize them, that is where the criticism should be aimed.
In addition to this, even if you are born in Germany, if your parents are immigrants, then you still can't get the same citizenship as someone who is born in Germany to parents that aren't immigrants.
To me, that is very racist. There should only be one level of citizenship -- legal.
In America, we have green cards and citizenship. Once you go through the right steps, you can become a full citizen with the same rights as someone born here. The only right we don't give to people not born here is the ability to run for president -- which admittedly is also racist.
There are no different levels of citizenship in germany. There is only one.
what we do have, are different legal statuses for immigrants who do not yet hold german or EU citizenship. But those can apply for a permanent residency, and after a while, once they have proven that they can support themselves financially, speak german, and fullfill other requirements, they can apply for german citizenship. But we'll certainly reserve the right to give citizenship only to those who qualify.
Nothing racist about that, I'd say. Most nations on the planet have comparable laws about immigration, and naturalization. Some even hold citizenship tests for applicants. If I am informed correctly, the application process in New Zealand even includes a medical check-up, with calculation of BMI and other weird stuff.
no, it is not. We take education seriously here. History programs are fine, as long as they do not glorify or misrepresent the horrors of the Nazi regime.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The swastika is censored from most games dealing with WW2 (even if you're shooting at the guys bearing it) for fear of Germany flipping out. Leaves me to wonder if it's blurred from their history programs.
What we do have, are laws prohibiting the display of certain Nazi symbols, especially on commercial products such as video games. Among them are the Swastika, certain flags, the SS runes, and other Nazi symbols.
Those are also banned from public display, for example at demonstrations.
We even have special sections in our penal code and laws that regulate the use of Nazi symbols, Nazi phrases, or songs ( § 86 StGB, for example ).
Not because we don't take freedom of speech seriously, but rather because we know that the use of such language, or gestures ( Hitler salute ), is done by Neo-Nazis, fascists, or other extremists, who are looking to downplay the atrocities of the Nazi regime. And we cannot let that happen.
isnt "mein kampf" banned in germany?