Poll

Which Scenario is more likely to Happen? (Read Before Answering)

Apocalypse Now15%15% - 5
Mad Max12%12% - 4
Partition25%25% - 8
Let's Make a Deal15%15% - 5
They're all BS31%31% - 10
Total: 32
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7185|Argentina
A friend of mine sent me this link, and I searched and it seems it wasn't posted before.  It gives you an interesting view of the war in Iraq. 

Post-U.S. Scenarios: The Bad, the Worse, and the Ugly

Let's just get the wishful thinking out of the way first. Peace won't break out if and when the United States leaves Iraq; violence will continue, and possibly get worse. That's not a rationale for leaving the troops in place, just a hard reality. How bad, exactly, will it be? Here are four scenarios, ranging from the horrific to the somewhat hopeful.

1. Apocalypse Now
The feeble, feckless government collapses, and the militias go to war. Kurds seize Kirkuk and the northern oil fields; Sunni and Shiite Arabs fight back. Sunni forces try to take Baghdad, battling Shiite militias. In the south, competing Shiite forces battle it out for Basra while Al Qaeda in Iraq (aqi) gains a safe haven in the Sunni heartland. As the fighting intensifies, the neighbors jump in: Turkey invades northern Iraq to crush the Kurds, Iran and Saudi Arabia defend their allies, and restive minorities in neighboring countries rebel—all the ingredients are in place for a broader regional war, playing out on top of two-thirds of the world's oil supply. Gas hits $10 a gallon.

Who's Pushing It: Hawks who argue that the United States must stay in Iraq for many years, including the Weekly Standard's William Kristol.

How to Make It Happen: Pull out abruptly, without a solid international agreement in place. The resulting vacuum would empower extremists such as aqi, ultranationalist Kurds, and the Shiite death squads, drawing more moderate factions and regional neighbors into all-out war.

The Odds: 10 percent. Not impossible, nor as likely as hawks would have you believe, in part because neighboring regimes know they could all go down if regional war breaks out.

2. Mad Max
Tens of thousands die as Sunnis and Shiites battle to control the country. But the regional powers agree not to intervene; after a time, the worst killing dies down, leaving a Somalia-style society run by gangs, warlords, and militias. To keep the slaughter contained within Iraq, U.S troops set up "catch basins" along the borders—armed buffer zones dotted with "refugee collection points," a.k.a. camps, for those trying to escape Iraq's hell.

Who's Pushing It: As a worst-case possibility, this has been embraced by some realists preoccupied with preserving American influence in the Middle East, such as the Brookings Institution's Kenneth Pollack and Daniel Byman.

How to Make It Happen: Keep supporting the ruling Shiite and Kurdish separatists, lowering the odds of reconciliation.

The Odds: 20 percent. Without outside backing, the factions will find it hard to keep up a full-scale war.


3. Partition
Iraq breaks up into Kurdistan, Shiastan, and Sunnistan, with the squabbling statelets struggling to control the country's oil. Michael O'Hanlon, coauthor of a Brookings report called "The Case for Soft Partition in Iraq," says up to 5 million Iraqis would be forcibly relocated; others have called it "a bad idea whose time has come."

Who's Pushing It: Much of Washington conventional wisdom outside the Bush administration has coalesced around partition; proponents include Senator Joe Biden (D-Del.), Leslie Gelb of the Council on Foreign Relations, Kurdish adviser Peter Galbraith, and Pauline Baker of the Fund for Peace.

How to Make It Happen: Keep arming Sunni tribes, Shiite-dominated security forces, and Kurdish militias, ensuring that each is just strong enough to hold at least a chunk of the country.

The Odds: 30 percent. The administration, the Iraqi government, and most Iraqi politicians except the Kurds oppose partition, but if no one forces the parties to the bargaining table, it's a real possibility.


4. Let's Make a Deal
The corrupt politicians who rode into Iraq on American helicopters—from Washington creatures such as Ahmed Chalabi to the Shiite clerics who spent their exile years in Iran—bail out as U.S. troops leave. (As Carter-administration national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski says, "The only Iraqis who want the United States to stay are the ones who will have to leave when we leave.") On the Sunni side, a nationalist constellation of insurgent groups, tribal forces, and the old Baath party elite works to seek a power-sharing arrangement with the Shiites; among Shiites, nationalists eclipse the separatists and Iranian hirelings and forge a compromise. The resulting government coalition is both anti-American and anti-Iranian. It ruthlessly crushes Al Qaeda in Iraq and persuades the Kurds to accept limited autonomy rather than independence.

Who's Pushing It: Minus the anti-Americanism, a version of this scenario is the administration's stated goal—though actual policy undermines it at every turn.

How to Make It Happen: Support the United Nations' effort to reengage in Iraq. Get it to convene peace talks with the support of Europe, Russia, and China, all of whom have their eyes on Iraq's oil. Stop arming various factions and begin an orderly withdrawal.

The Odds: 40 percent. If withdrawal is done right, chances for this outcome are fair, though it would still come with a great deal of bloodshed that could easily spiral into one of the grimmer scenarios.




Claiming that withdrawal will instantly make things better in Iraq may be Pollyannaish, but those who insist that the worst-case scenarios are inevitable also labor under several false assumptions. They harp on the fact that Iraq was pasted together by the British, forgetting that the "land between two rivers" has existed since the days of Babylon. They claim that Sunnis and Shiites are gripped by ancient, irreconcilable hatreds, when up to one-third of Iraq's marriages cross sectarian and ethnic lines. Despite the growing sectarian violence, only 14 percent of Iraqis favored outright partition as recently as March of this year, and most reject the fundamentalist extremes of both Al Qaeda and Iran's theocracy. Pessimists also ignore the fact that Iraq's oil wealth counteracts its centrifugal tendencies. The fragile network of wells, pipelines, refineries, and shipping terminals cannot withstand civil war—and everyone wants a piece of that pie.


Fixing Iraq, though, cannot be America's task. The United States has zero credibility to put the country back together, as do its Iraqi allies, including the current government. That leaves the rest of the world. Since 2003, Washington has treated Iraq as an American preserve. But when the troops leave, the United States will have to plead with the United Nations, the Arab League, and the Organization of the Islamic Conference to mediate among Iraq's warring parties and lean hard on their outside supporters. If an accord can be reached, the OIC would have to marshal peacekeeping forces from Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Egypt—an unprecedented task at the scale needed in Iraq.


There will be a price to pay for all concerned, starting with massive aid from the nations interested in Iraq's oil, including China and Japan. Iraq's neighbors will also demand their pound of flesh, and they ought to get it: Turkey will want economic aid, E.U. membership, and security guarantees about the Kurds. The Arab states will expect a serious U.S. commitment to an Israeli-Palestinian accord, perhaps the only problem harder to crack than Iraq. Iran will want elements of the grand bargain that has so far eluded it—economic incentives and security guarantees, perhaps in exchange for limits on its nuclear research.


Even if all this can be lined up, Iraqis will be left with the tough job of hammering out a new constitution and electing a government—a process for which current U.S. policy is hardly preparing them. The counterinsurgency war has prevented the development of broad-based Sunni parties, while among the Shiites the United States has supported the most sectarian and pro-Iranian blocs, including the secretive Islamic formation of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. If this continues, even a moderately optimistic scenario will begin to look like wishful thinking.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina
This article seems pretty accurate from what else I've read.  It's still pretty uncertain what's going to happen, but I guess Let's Make a Deal does seem the most realistic.
imortal
Member
+240|7093|Austin, TX
Yeah, that site seems like a bastion of unbiased journalism.  (yes, sarcasm)
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6833|North Carolina
Mother Jones is pretty left wing, but this analysis was remarkably objective (except for a few comments).

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-25 10:44:51)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

Turquoise wrote:

This article seems pretty accurate from what else I've read.
lulz...............what?

And you bitch about the dailymail.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072
Mother Jones IS the left wing.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-02-25 11:40:11)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7185|Argentina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

This article seems pretty accurate from what else I've read.
lulz...............what?

And you bitch about the dailymail.
Did you take the time to read the article?  Seriously?  I'm not saying this is unbiased, but it has very interesting views.  Just read the Scenarios part.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7118|Tampa Bay Florida

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

This article seems pretty accurate from what else I've read.
lulz...............what?

And you bitch about the dailymail.
Are you saying the article sucks?

Who gives a fuck about the source, as long as the content is factual, or with this article, an open minded assessment of something.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

This article seems pretty accurate from what else I've read.
lulz...............what?

And you bitch about the dailymail.
Are you saying the article sucks?

Who gives a fuck about the source, as long as the content is factual, or with this article, an open minded assessment of something.
Ya eh?  Where the fuck are you when people go "zomg fox news" and "zomg this or that?"
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7118|Tampa Bay Florida

usmarine wrote:

Ya eh?  Where the fuck are you when people go "zomg fox news" and "zomg this or that?"
I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Ya eh?  Where the fuck are you when people go "zomg fox news" and "zomg this or that?"
I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072
its a pretty stupid article.  "sunni forces try to take baghdad"....ok, try to take a city that you already are the majority of population in.  sounds as credible as the movie plots they are describing.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7118|Tampa Bay Florida

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Ya eh?  Where the fuck are you when people go "zomg fox news" and "zomg this or that?"
I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:


I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

its a pretty stupid article.  "sunni forces try to take baghdad"....ok, try to take a city that you already are the majority of population in.  sounds as credible as the movie plots they are describing.
^^^^^^^^
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:


All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
this is the part where somebody is going to say

"so we have to go to a warzone in order to know whats going on blah blah blah blah blah blah dont cry for me blah blah blah"


pre-emptive strike.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:


But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
this is the part where somebody is going to say

"so we have to go to a warzone in order to know whats going on blah blah blah blah blah blah dont cry for me blah blah blah"


pre-emptive strike.
fire for effect!
imortal
Member
+240|7093|Austin, TX

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Ya eh?  Where the fuck are you when people go "zomg fox news" and "zomg this or that?"
I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
I would say that the possible scenarios are accurate; I do not agree with the percentages.  Also, there was nothing anywhere near objecitve about the description of the current Iraqi leaders.  In that single sentance, the entire article lost any semblance of credibility for me.  How things turn out depend a lot on variables not mentioned in the article.  Iran was not mentioned, that I notice.  Especially no notice that Iran was forming a militia of Iranian trained Iraqi Shia troops in 2003 before the US even consolodated control of the country.  They called it (in English, that is) the BADR Corps.  Also, Turkey has a vested intrest in keeping the Kurds from forming an independant nation.  That is just two forces external to Iraq besides the US that have been noted to have a keen intrest in the political outcome of this nation, and they were not even considered.
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6608

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:


I dont know, Fox news doesn't really outright lie, its just biased, like a lot of shit in the media.  Do people really call out stuff from Fox and say its not true?  I mean pointing out a bias and calling something an outright fabrication are two really different things.
All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
That is the problem with this thread. We are being asked to vote on a poll based on a biased article that clearly believes nothing good is going to happen. Who really knows how this is going to turn out. There has been a big change already. We will see but I am not going to vote on a poll that is based on this kind of trash. As Gunslinger pointed out, some of the points are totally worthless.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7118|Tampa Bay Florida

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

All the time people do.  And this article on mothergoose is not fact based, it is opinion based.
But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
Didnt say it wasn't way off, just saying that has nothing to do with whether or not its left wing or right wing biased, and that it was someones opinion.

And thanks for letting me know that it was a dumb article.  But the situations they presented are still within the realm of possibility, are they not?  I wouldn't know.

Last edited by Spearhead (2008-02-25 12:36:29)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

usmarine wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

usmarine wrote:


But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
this is the part where somebody is going to say

"so we have to go to a warzone in order to know whats going on blah blah blah blah blah blah dont cry for me blah blah blah"


pre-emptive strike.
fire for effect!
splash, over
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7190

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

usmarine wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:


this is the part where somebody is going to say

"so we have to go to a warzone in order to know whats going on blah blah blah blah blah blah dont cry for me blah blah blah"


pre-emptive strike.
fire for effect!
splash, over
I think we need to bring it within 50 meters on this forum.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7072

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Spearhead wrote:


But the article doesn't claim to be fact based.  Its someones opinion on the situation and what they think the chances are of different things happening.
But they are way off.  It appears the person who wrote that has never been to Iraq.
Didnt say it wasn't way off, just saying that has nothing to do with whether or not its left wing or right wing biased, and that it was someones opinion.

And thanks for letting me know that it was a dumb article.  But the situations they presented are still within the realm of possibility, are they not?  I wouldn't know.
as reasonable as a russian invasion through the bearing straight with support from various communist latin american countries paradropping somewhere in colorado


it could happen, not likely.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7118|Tampa Bay Florida
Gotchya
d4rkst4r
biggie smalls
+72|6881|Ontario, Canada
wow serge, your a little late with the news, Turkey has already invaded soon to be Kurdistan
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard