Rocket attacks have killed one single Israeli in the past 9 months, Israeli strikes have killed 200 Palestinians over the same period. That gives a very good idea about who is retalliating against who.FEOS wrote:
So the way to correct it is by lobbing rockets at the other side's civilians?PureFodder wrote:
That denies any planning and organisation time for retaliation, which could be 2 minutes or 2 years. Plus Palestinian attacks are in part in response for being forced into living in aparetheid conditions in the worlds largest and most overcrowded prison and having basic human rights denied on a day to day basis. Palestinians are not subjecting Israeli citizens to a 40 year brutal military occupation.FEOS wrote:
Prove that the Israeli attacks aren't in retaliation to rocket attacks.
The best way to do that is look at the time between an Israeli strike and the next rocket attack. Then look from the other perspective: what is the time between a rocket attack and an Israeli strike in/around the point of origin of the rocket attack? Short time roughly equates to the first event causing the second.
If you're going to say that the rockets are in retaliation for Israeli strikes, then timing is essential to determining that. Even more so when you look at the other side of the situation: Israelis striking in retaliation. Granted, there will be situations where the timing argument doesn't work, but in general--to get a feel for who's doing what to whom and why--it works.
No, it just gives an indication of who has better weapons and training.PureFodder wrote:
Rocket attacks have killed one single Israeli in the past 9 months, Israeli strikes have killed 200 Palestinians over the same period. That gives a very good idea about who is retalliating against who.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Fixed.PureFodder wrote:
Hamas certainly is inflicting amazing amounts of suffering and needless deaths upon the civillian Palestinian populace.
Simple solution to the conflict: the numbskulls launching rockets into Israel accept a two-state solution.
So we the US should stop giving the Israeli forces billions of dollars worth of millitary equiptment, problem solved.FEOS wrote:
No, it just gives an indication of who has better weapons and training.PureFodder wrote:
Rocket attacks have killed one single Israeli in the past 9 months, Israeli strikes have killed 200 Palestinians over the same period. That gives a very good idea about who is retalliating against who.
Or give Hamas precision guided missiles
Isreal have been infliciting suffering and death on the Palestinian populace regardless of the actions of Hamas.san4 wrote:
Fixed.PureFodder wrote:
Hamas certainly is inflicting amazing amounts of suffering and needless deaths upon the civillian Palestinian populace.
Simple solution to the conflict: the numbskulls launching rockets into Israel accept a two-state solution.
The conflict has endured only because the numbskulls that preceded Hamas refused to accept a two-state solution.PureFodder wrote:
Isreal have been infliciting suffering and death on the Palestinian populace regardless of the actions of Hamas.san4 wrote:
Fixed.PureFodder wrote:
Hamas certainly is inflicting amazing amounts of suffering and needless deaths upon the civillian Palestinian populace.
Simple solution to the conflict: the numbskulls launching rockets into Israel accept a two-state solution.
and who's a better shot.FEOS wrote:
No, it just gives an indication of who has better weapons and training.PureFodder wrote:
Rocket attacks have killed one single Israeli in the past 9 months, Israeli strikes have killed 200 Palestinians over the same period. That gives a very good idea about who is retalliating against who.
ive said it before and ill say it again, if they do it for the 'lulz' why don't the just steamroll the place for a barrel of laughs?PureFodder wrote:
Isreal have been infliciting suffering and death on the Palestinian populace regardless of the actions of Hamas.san4 wrote:
Fixed.PureFodder wrote:
Hamas certainly is inflicting amazing amounts of suffering and needless deaths upon the civillian Palestinian populace.
Simple solution to the conflict: the numbskulls launching rockets into Israel accept a two-state solution.
Last edited by M.O.A.B (2008-02-29 16:45:29)
ARe people born in palestine considered israeli citizens?
Try reading about the history of the peace talks.san4 wrote:
The conflict has endured only because the numbskulls that preceded Hamas refused to accept a two-state solution.PureFodder wrote:
Isreal have been infliciting suffering and death on the Palestinian populace regardless of the actions of Hamas.san4 wrote:
Fixed.
Simple solution to the conflict: the numbskulls launching rockets into Israel accept a two-state solution.
People born in the occupied territories and Gaza are not granted Israeli citizenship. I'm pretty sure Arab Israelis would outnumber Jews if they were.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
ARe people born in palestine considered israeli citizens?
Are you denying that the Arabs have refused a two-state solution ever since the founding of Israel?PureFodder wrote:
Try reading about the history of the peace talks.san4 wrote:
The conflict has endured only because the numbskulls that preceded Hamas refused to accept a two-state solution.PureFodder wrote:
Isreal have been infliciting suffering and death on the Palestinian populace regardless of the actions of Hamas.
Or that Israel has always accepted a two-state solution?
Palestine has been after a sensible two state solution for decades. So far the two state solutions offered have not been sensible.san4 wrote:
Are you denying that the Arabs have refused a two-state solution ever since the founding of Israel?PureFodder wrote:
Try reading about the history of the peace talks.san4 wrote:
The conflict has endured only because the numbskulls that preceded Hamas refused to accept a two-state solution.
Or that Israel has always accepted a two-state solution?
The closest the talks have ever gotten to a two state solution were at Taba. Isreal walked away.
Uri Avnery of the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom attributed the failure to Barak, claiming that: "It was not Arafat who broke off the talks at this critical moment, when the light at the end of the tunnel was clearly visible to the negotiators, but Barak. He ordered his men to break off and return home."
No. Hamas could start acting like a real military organization, training their people to some level of proficiency and abiding by the LOAC. Yet they don't, and continue lobbing rockets into civilian areas with the express purpose of killing civilians.PureFodder wrote:
So we the US should stop giving the Israeli forces billions of dollars worth of millitary equiptment, problem solved.FEOS wrote:
No, it just gives an indication of who has better weapons and training.PureFodder wrote:
Rocket attacks have killed one single Israeli in the past 9 months, Israeli strikes have killed 200 Palestinians over the same period. That gives a very good idea about who is retalliating against who.
Or give Hamas precision guided missiles
No matter what you say, you just can't put enough lipstick on that pig, Fodder.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The pig was created in response to Isreali actions. You seem happy to justify the side that is doing the vast majority of the killing and human rights abuses.FEOS wrote:
No. Hamas could start acting like a real military organization, training their people to some level of proficiency and abiding by the LOAC. Yet they don't, and continue lobbing rockets into civilian areas with the express purpose of killing civilians.PureFodder wrote:
So we the US should stop giving the Israeli forces billions of dollars worth of millitary equiptment, problem solved.FEOS wrote:
No, it just gives an indication of who has better weapons and training.
Or give Hamas precision guided missiles
No matter what you say, you just can't put enough lipstick on that pig, Fodder.
Isreal should start acting like a real millitary too. The ratio of children killed to total killings is twice as high for Isreali forces as Palestinians.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
So any actions in response to what Israel has done are justified? YGBSM.PureFodder wrote:
The pig was created in response to Isreali actions. You seem happy to justify the side that is doing the vast majority of the killing and human rights abuses.FEOS wrote:
No. Hamas could start acting like a real military organization, training their people to some level of proficiency and abiding by the LOAC. Yet they don't, and continue lobbing rockets into civilian areas with the express purpose of killing civilians.PureFodder wrote:
So we the US should stop giving the Israeli forces billions of dollars worth of millitary equiptment, problem solved.
Or give Hamas precision guided missiles
No matter what you say, you just can't put enough lipstick on that pig, Fodder.
Isreal should start acting like a real millitary too. The ratio of children killed to total killings is twice as high for Isreali forces as Palestinians.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Ask why those children were in a position to be killed. Is it because Israel went after them? No.
Is it because the Hamas terrorists hide within civilian populations, not wearing uniforms to distinguish themselves as required by the Geneva Convention? Yes.
And why do they do that? So that Israel will get blamed for killing those very civilians that Hamas hides amongst. Israel is in a no-win situation: if they don't strike Hamas because due to fear of collateral damage, Hamas wins. If they do strike and kill innocent civilians, Hamas wins.
But it's only that way because people like you defend the actions of Hamas.
I'm not givin Israel a pass here, but their actions are a damn sight more defensible than Hamas' or Hezbollah's. Israel's actions, by and large (and particularly in comparison), adhere to international laws of war. Hamas flaunts those laws and then gets accolades for doing so. But God forbid Israel step even one inch over the line in their actions...immediate condemnation.
The double standard is sickening.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS wrote:
Ask why those children were in a position to be killed. Is it because Israel went after them? No.
Kmarion wrote:
Even the AP acknowledges that Hamas launches its rockets from densely populated civilian centers, drawing fire onto their own people.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
That's not a serious response. There is overwhelming evidence that the Arabs have consistently rejected a two-state solution since the founding of Israel.PureFodder wrote:
Palestine has been after a sensible two state solution for decades. So far the two state solutions offered have not been sensible.san4 wrote:
Are you denying that the Arabs have refused a two-state solution ever since the founding of Israel?PureFodder wrote:
Try reading about the history of the peace talks.
Or that Israel has always accepted a two-state solution?
- For most of its existence the PLO completely rejected a two-state solution and vowed to destroy Israel by violence.
- The Arabs rejected the UN partition plan in 1947, "planning a military solution to the conflict".
- The Arabs boycotted Israel throughout the 1950s and trained and equipped armed groups to conduct raids into Israel.
- In 1967 the Arab nations issued their "three no's" policy: no peace, no recognition, no negotiations.
- Hamas still has not accepted a two-state solution, nor have Islamic Jihad or other groups.
The Arabs have consistently rejected a two-state solution--even before Israel even occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Israel, in contrast, has accepted a two-state solution since 1947.
Your statement that Hamas, the PLO or any other enemies of Israel have sought a two-state solution "for decades" is delusional.
I do not understand your first paragraph as a response to my writing. Either I must have not written clearly, or you did not understand what I was saying.Shadowolf wrote:
So the land belongs to them because they have been there already?They did not refuse land being given to them- It already belonged to them!
Well in that case, the Jews where there too, hundreds of years before.
But I guess because they were forced to leave a long time ago, it doesn't count, right?
Actually it doesn't really matter who lived there, what matters is who controlled the land. The controller is the one that calls the shots and the only one to make decisions, and the controllers (Britain and the UN) have made theirs.
If you read correctly, I said that Canaan belonged (note the past tense) to the Palestinians until Jewish immigration established itself on their land and created a nation from it. The Jews had no right to claim ownership from past inhabitance, as it is irrelevant. Now, most importantly, I did mention that in that same theme, as I did not contradict myself, that in our current situation (note that I am mentioning something in the present) we must accept that because the Israelis have lived there for generations and that there is an entire nation of people there who have never had another home, that Israel is their home, we cannot side with either as the sole inhabitant of Canaan. Historically, I was arguing that it was wrong to let Israel be created in the past. To accept an argument from past inhabitance is a radical idea that would have serious ramifications for the Americas, in that the past clearly favours the native population. I clearly identified my view of the current political situation, and you obviously missed that.
As for your second paragraph, I would have no problem deconstructing your argument in a well formed treatise, but as a more effective method, I would advise you that if your nation was conquered, and you were forced to a death camp to die at the hands of your new masters, then I hope you will not complain or feel mistreated. The controller is the one that calls the shots and the only one to make decisions.
Now, in reference to the article detailing the death of Palestinian children, its most effective theme is in illuminating the justification for Palestinian acts. In killing these children, the Israelis may not have acted in murder (perhaps indifference instead) but they have provided ammunition for the cause of the Palestinian people, and the cause to remove the Israeli state. Perhaps they managed to kill a military target, but overall the attack will prove only to extend the conflict. Those Palestinians who hear of this will not care about the collateral damage argument (a most horrifying euphemism), but only the fact that there are dead children. Most potently, the parents of these children will be furious. They will no qualms about vengeance, especially against Israeli children. If you lose your family, what else do you have to lose? What stops these people from becoming suicide bombers, especially in the poverty of the Palestinian territories? The argument against this Israeli attack is that it causes more hatred and more war.
out of order.
Not really, it belonged to the Romans/Babylonians/a shit load of other empires.Drakef wrote:
If you read correctly, I said that Canaan belonged (note the past tense) to the Palestinians
But the occupying empire never sent the population to death camps, all it did was divide the land in half and give both the Jews and th Palestinians a piece.Drakef wrote:
As for your second paragraph, I would have no problem deconstructing your argument in a well formed treatise, but as a more effective method, I would advise you that if your nation was conquered, and you were forced to a death camp to die at the hands of your new masters, then I hope you will not complain or feel mistreated. The controller is the one that calls the shots and the only one to make decisions.
An occupier that sends the population to death camps should be immediately stopped and the land should be given to someone else.
And if you're tying to compare what I wrote in the above sentence to modern Israel the Palestinian population, don't. Its very far away from death camps.
So why should the innocent children suffer because of Hamas's crimes (collective punishment). Why should the populace of Palestine suffer each and every day? Israel is an occupying army who's responsability under the Geneva convention is to protect the people of Palestine from Hamas and from their own forces. You seem to think that any action done against the palestinian populace is justifiable.FEOS wrote:
So any actions in response to what Israel has done are justified? YGBSM.PureFodder wrote:
The pig was created in response to Isreali actions. You seem happy to justify the side that is doing the vast majority of the killing and human rights abuses.FEOS wrote:
No. Hamas could start acting like a real military organization, training their people to some level of proficiency and abiding by the LOAC. Yet they don't, and continue lobbing rockets into civilian areas with the express purpose of killing civilians.
No matter what you say, you just can't put enough lipstick on that pig, Fodder.
Isreal should start acting like a real millitary too. The ratio of children killed to total killings is twice as high for Isreali forces as Palestinians.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Ask why those children were in a position to be killed. Is it because Israel went after them? No.
Is it because the Hamas terrorists hide within civilian populations, not wearing uniforms to distinguish themselves as required by the Geneva Convention? Yes.
And why do they do that? So that Israel will get blamed for killing those very civilians that Hamas hides amongst. Israel is in a no-win situation: if they don't strike Hamas because due to fear of collateral damage, Hamas wins. If they do strike and kill innocent civilians, Hamas wins.
But it's only that way because people like you defend the actions of Hamas.
I'm not givin Israel a pass here, but their actions are a damn sight more defensible than Hamas' or Hezbollah's. Israel's actions, by and large (and particularly in comparison), adhere to international laws of war. Hamas flaunts those laws and then gets accolades for doing so. But God forbid Israel step even one inch over the line in their actions...immediate condemnation.
The double standard is sickening.
The U.N. Human Rights Commission has some things to say about Israel
Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."
In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity;..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission: "Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."
Your argument is that all of that is justified.Israel was criticized for "the gross violations of human rights and international humanitarian law, in particular, acts of extrajudicial killing, closures, collective punishments, the persistence in establishing settlements, arbitrary detentions, the besieging of Palestinian towns and villages, the shelling of Palestinian residential districts from warplanes, tanks and Israeli battleships, the conducting of incursions into towns and camps and the killing of men, women and children there." The resolution also condemned the "acts of mass killing perpetrated by the Israeli occupying authorities against the Palestinian people."
What does Human Rights Watch have to say about Israel
http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/israelot.htm
It then goes on to talk about the other crimes comitted by Israel primarily on the civillian populace of Palestine. They say both sides show little regard for civillian life, with Israel killing far more people. Israel also commit a catalogue of other crimes from collective punishment to home demolition and illegal settlements.The number and gravity of violations committed by the IDF escalated as clashes culminated in the military reoccupation of most areas of the Palestinian Authority (PA). Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as human shields. Israel also used helicopter-fired missiles, tanks, and explosive devices to kill more than 175 individuals whom they accused of planning or carrying out attacks on Israeli military targets or civilians, sometimes in circumstances where the person could have been arrested and where Israeli forces showed insufficient regard for civilian life. The IDF continued to fail to investigate wrongful deaths or other violations by Israeli soldiers, and as of January 2003, had not responded to repeated requests from Human Rights Watch for information on killings the organization documented in Jenin.
Armed Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians—suicide bombings and other deliberate attacks—also reached unprecedented levels. PA officials condemned such attacks, but failed to move decisively against those responsible for ordering and organizing them. Armed Palestinians also killed at least twenty-two alleged collaborators.
Hamas are awful, Israel are at least as bad and certainly kill way more people, plus Israel has a great big pile of crimes that don't involve killing people.
If they didn't care than they devote so much time on making artillery and bombs that cause as least spread damage as possible. If they didn't care Baghdad would have leveled by now.imortal wrote:
...they apparently don't mean much to other Muslim countries. Jordan, Syria, and Eqypt will not allow Palastinians to cross into their nations. That is why those refugee camps are even there. Not even the people who claim to kill in their name want anything to do with them. If you are going to play the "Spread the Blame" game, maybe you need a wider butterknife.IRONCHEF wrote:
I can't remember how many years ago it happened (6ish?), but it was when the Israeli Palistinian conflict really got underway..and it really got sparked by the baseless killing of a 12 year old throwing rocks at bulldozers plowing his neighborhood. I worked in San Francisco at the time and I remember the pro-palestinian protests out on the street that week with posters of that boy being hoisted.
No, Israel/USA does NOT care if children are targeted or accidentally killed. Palestinians mean less than nothing to our leaders, sadly.
Israel was founded on Jewish extremism, violence, antagonism and terrorism. Arguably, it continues to this day, albiet hidden behind rules and regulations and an assumed ligitimacy derived from a status quo maintained for decades, but attained illegitimately.
Wouldn't the situation in all likelihood be exactly the same, had history been favourable to the palestinians instead? Personally, I don't see how either side deserves what they want with what they're doing to get it.
Wouldn't the situation in all likelihood be exactly the same, had history been favourable to the palestinians instead? Personally, I don't see how either side deserves what they want with what they're doing to get it.
Last edited by mikkel (2008-03-01 06:11:11)
The suffering of the people of Gaza is the fault of Hamas. Gazans would stop suffering if Hamas retracted its vow to destroy Israel.PureFodder wrote:
So why should the innocent children suffer because of Hamas's crimes (collective punishment). Why should the populace of Palestine suffer each and every day? Israel is an occupying army who's responsability under the Geneva convention is to protect the people of Palestine from Hamas and from their own forces. You seem to think that any action done against the palestinian populace is justifiable.
You should be complaining about Hamas, not Israel.
And Israel have no choce in the matter, they just have to engage in massive crimes. Gazans were suffering before Hamas existed, there's no reason to believe that Israel will stop if Hamas do.san4 wrote:
The suffering of the people of Gaza is the fault of Hamas. Gazans would stop suffering if Hamas retracted its vow to destroy Israel.PureFodder wrote:
So why should the innocent children suffer because of Hamas's crimes (collective punishment). Why should the populace of Palestine suffer each and every day? Israel is an occupying army who's responsability under the Geneva convention is to protect the people of Palestine from Hamas and from their own forces. You seem to think that any action done against the palestinian populace is justifiable.
You should be complaining about Hamas, not Israel.