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2008-03-06 04:31:10
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6607

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

I am sorry, I musta missed the nation of Palestine on the map....... Where exactly does PALESTINE border??

Why do you not answer the question in the paragraph? Tell me how you can defend the Arab nations for their actions now against the Jews, when they acted the same way toward the Jews BEFORE Israel existed?? Israel is yet another excuse for genocide toward the Jews nothing more nothing less. When Israel is destroyed it will be another reason to kill all the Jews, just like before. Now deny it, based on history.
I am not talking about palestine as a nation. We both know that palestine was a part of the osmanic empire until they were defeated by the british in WWI. After that, the region was spilt up between the victorous nations, Great Britain taking what is today Israel, and large parts of Jordan, under their mandate.

Here is a map from 1920 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/d … na1920.png

I am not defending any arab nation. I am merely saying that I can understand why palestinians would not want to accept the existence of the nation of israel, given the circumstances under which it came into existence, for example the Balfour Declaration.

Also, I am not condoning genocide towards any ethnic group, be it the jews or the palestinians.
It is impossible to say which group has more rights to live in that area. Historically, both have settled there. Yet, it have been the jews that have received nearly unconditional support by western nations, and it has been the palestinians that have been at the losing end of things.
Why is that, I ask you ?

Why did I not answer your question ? Because it is pointless to answer rethoric questions. Of course israel would not be hasseling anyone, if left alone. My point is, though, how anyone can expect the palestinains to "leave the israelis alone", given the conditions the palestinians live under today, and they way in which the land they settled on was taken from them to accomodate jewish lobbyists in London ?

Ironically, the palestinians are essentially living in ghettos now. It is easy for us to say that they should simply accept the fact that israel exists and move someplace else, or make peace with the israelis. But would you say the same if you had grown up in the West bank, or the Gaza strip, under those circumstances ?
All I am saying is that the palestinians have just the same right to live on that land as the jews have.

As an American, I suppose you are familiar with the concept of fighting for the right of self-governance, freedom, and independence, on the land that you settle on. It is the way America as a nation came into existence. And it wasn't exactly peaceful either.
Israel was granted that right after WWII, when they took the land they live on today by force.
Why would you deny that same right to the palestinians ?
According to this map....looks like some Arab countries could solve the whole thing and give that land back so the Palestinians could form their own country next to Israel. Hmmmm.....I dont see that happening anytime soon. I wonder why Palestinians aren't fighting "Saudi Arabien" and "Irak" for their missing land???

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2008-03-06 04:32:30)

2008-03-06 04:43:54
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6533|eXtreme to the maX
It is impossible to say which group has more rights to live in that area. Historically, both have settled there.
Both 'groups' have a right to live there, neither group has the right to turf the other out.
If Israel were a democracy this situation would not exist.

Ironically, the palestinians are essentially living in ghettos now.
The best historical analogy for Gaza is the Warsaw ghetto.
With the jews displacing the Palestinians, herding them into ghettoes and threatening them with holocausts the world really has come full circle.

According to this map....looks like some Arab countries could solve the whole thing and give that land back so the Palestinians could form their own country next to Israel. Hmmmm.....I dont see that happening anytime soon. I wonder why Palestinians aren't fighting "Saudi Arabien" and "Irak" for their missing land???
Equally the Israelis could give the land back to the Palestinians and go back to Europe, although I think Texas would be the better option.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-03-06 04:47:00)

Fuck Israel
2008-03-06 04:53:47
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6607

Dilbert_X wrote:

According to this map....looks like some Arab countries could solve the whole thing and give that land back so the Palestinians could form their own country next to Israel. Hmmmm.....I dont see that happening anytime soon. I wonder why Palestinians aren't fighting "Saudi Arabien" and "Irak" for their missing land???
Equally the Israelis could give the land back to the Palestinians and go back to Europe, although I think Texas would be the better option.
You totally missed the point..........

Everybody throws maps around from this age or that age and its not going to change a thing. I do find it ironic that according to that map, that Arab countries already have Palestinian land and yet no one talks about that. They could easily have two countries living side by side but of course those countries are not going to give up land to do that so why should Israel.

Anyhow, as I said before, it doesn't really matter about what happened 2,000 years ago or who was there first. NEITHER side is going to change its mind and neither will give up without fighting and killing. So how will this be solved.....who knows. Its been going on for thousands of years. Religions, races and countries have fought over this small piece of land and will continue to do so no matter what anyone says. Someday, civility will wake up among these people and realize that they need to share and live together, side by side in peace.....only they can get to that point and until then....we will read in the media the killing and death of innocence because the powers that be will continue their posturing and power trips. BOTH sides are to blame and BOTH need to wake up........SOMEDAY!!!!

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2008-03-06 05:00:48)

2008-03-06 05:10:55
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7185|Argentina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Everybody throws maps around from this age or that age and its not going to change a thing. I do find it ironic that according to that map, that Arab countries already have Palestinian land and yet no one talks about that. They could easily have two countries living side by side but of course those countries are not going to give up land to do that so why should Israel.
True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
2008-03-06 05:16:59
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6607

sergeriver wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Everybody throws maps around from this age or that age and its not going to change a thing. I do find it ironic that according to that map, that Arab countries already have Palestinian land and yet no one talks about that. They could easily have two countries living side by side but of course those countries are not going to give up land to do that so why should Israel.
True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
Well, what if the Palestinians started setting up camp in those countries and Hamas started lobbing bombs at the nearest city and threatening the very existence of that country. Do you think that these countries would sit back and play nice? I highly doubt it.  Just look how quick the border closed up by Egypt. Didnt take long for them to hurd the Palestinians OFF THEIR LAND. Kind of a double standard........
2008-03-06 05:18:58
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7185|Argentina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Everybody throws maps around from this age or that age and its not going to change a thing. I do find it ironic that according to that map, that Arab countries already have Palestinian land and yet no one talks about that. They could easily have two countries living side by side but of course those countries are not going to give up land to do that so why should Israel.
True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
Well, what if the Palestinians started setting up camp in those countries and Hamas started lobbing bombs at the nearest city and threatening the very existence of that country. Do you think that these countries would sit back and play nice? I highly doubt it.  Just look how quick the border closed up by Egypt. Didnt take long for them to hurd the Palestinians OFF THEIR LAND. Kind of a double standard........
Agreed.
2008-03-06 05:21:57
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7269|Cologne, Germany

lowing wrote:

Are the Jews not settled back on the very land they were kicked out of? The Jews have been persecuted by the everyone for all of history, like it or not they also need a place to live and settle, there is no better place for that to happen then where they were kicked out of.

IF the surrounding nations would just get over their hatred for the JEWS, I think Israel could be a strong contributor to ME growth and bring that part of the world up to at least the 20th century.

I feel it is the hatred of the JEWS that drives all of this madness and not the hatred of Israel. Like I said, and can't seem to find anyone to deny it, if and when Israel is destroyed, there still will be no peace for the Jews. Israel is used as yet another excuse to persecute the Jews, nothing more.
well, I don't want to come across as unsensitive, but in the history of this planet, there have been countless incidents of ethnic or religious minorities being persecuted, or chased off their lands by stronger opposition. And no one gave a damn. What's so special about the jews that they get a land of their own ? Or are we still talking historical guilt here ?

And I am not disputing that the jews have a right to settle in palestine. I am simply saying that the way in which Israel came into existence was hugely unfavourable towards the indigenous population living there at the time, especially considering that arab palestinians were the majority.

Imagine if the roles were reversed, and the jews would be the ones cramped into the West Bank and Gaza strip, with no access to a seaport or airport, at the mercy of a superior military force, with the possibility that food, electricity, running water and medicine supply can be cut at will.
Everyone would be screaming like it's the Holocaust all over again.

In the thread about the Harvard gym thing we were discussing equality. You think the two groups are being treated equally here?
Israel is a rich, modern, free society, kept alive and supported by literally billions of western tax dollars. They can travel where they want, go to universities, raise children, etc..
Granted, they are surrounded by enemies ( at least historical enemies ), but they can sleep well at night, cause they know that the west is watching over them.
The palestinians, on the other hand, have nothing.

I agree that the jews have had it hard historically. But you can't make up for that by chosing their interests over that of the palestinians today.
Cause if you do that, you're only reversing the roles. And where is the justice in that ?
2008-03-06 05:25:46
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6533|eXtreme to the maX
You totally missed the point..........
Its obvious the other nations are using the Palestinians as pawns to pressurise Israel.
There is also the complication of the creation of Jordan.
The Palestinians are the former citizens of what is now Israel, not Jordan - so its reasonable to ask for their bit of Palestine back, not some other part of Palestine their antecedents probably never even visited.
Fuck Israel
2008-03-06 05:27:28
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7269|Cologne, Germany

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Everybody throws maps around from this age or that age and its not going to change a thing. I do find it ironic that according to that map, that Arab countries already have Palestinian land and yet no one talks about that. They could easily have two countries living side by side but of course those countries are not going to give up land to do that so why should Israel.
True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
Well, what if the Palestinians started setting up camp in those countries and Hamas started lobbing bombs at the nearest city and threatening the very existence of that country. Do you think that these countries would sit back and play nice? I highly doubt it.  Just look how quick the border closed up by Egypt. Didnt take long for them to hurd the Palestinians OFF THEIR LAND. Kind of a double standard........
this is true. Not even their fellow muslim brethren want anything to do with the plight of the palestinians. That is deplorable. But the palestinians don't want to settle in Egypt. Their homeland is palestine.
2008-03-06 05:31:08
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6650|Escea

B.Schuss wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
Well, what if the Palestinians started setting up camp in those countries and Hamas started lobbing bombs at the nearest city and threatening the very existence of that country. Do you think that these countries would sit back and play nice? I highly doubt it.  Just look how quick the border closed up by Egypt. Didnt take long for them to hurd the Palestinians OFF THEIR LAND. Kind of a double standard........
this is true. Not even their fellow muslim brethren want anything to do with the plight of the palestinians. That is deplorable. But the palestinians don't want to settle in Egypt. Their homeland is palestine.
Then again the Israeli's true homeland is bascially the same area.
2008-03-06 05:35:22
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6533|eXtreme to the maX
Then again the Israeli's true homeland is bascially the same area.
Correct, so why do they have to create an apartheid state for the Israelis only?
Fuck Israel
2008-03-06 05:45:28
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6607

Dilbert_X wrote:

You totally missed the point..........
Its obvious the other nations are using the Palestinians as pawns to pressurise Israel.
There is also the complication of the creation of Jordan.
The Palestinians are the former citizens of what is now Israel, not Jordan - so its reasonable to ask for their bit of Palestine back, not some other part of Palestine their antecedents probably never even visited.
You STILL missed my point. I don't care what happened 2,000 years ago, I don't care what maps you or anyone else shows me. It does not change the fact of what is going on NOW. I don't need history lessons or simantics of who lived where or visited where or who was there first. America as it is now shouldn't exist if this is how we are going to deal with modern issues. Afterall, Europeans wiped out the native Indians and shouldn't the Native Indians have their land back? Seriously, that isn't going to happen and the situation in Israel isn't going to change anytime soon unless some catastrophic event happens where the map is wiped clean by some idiot with his finger on the nuke button.

My post was really about sarcasm because, as that map pointed out, palestinian land was not only inside of where Israel was created but also into other countries as well but Hamas isn't threatening these countries, isn't lobbing bombs at the nearest civilian city and threatening the existance of the people there at the moment.  People need to get past the history of it all and think about what needs to be done TODAY. How many countries were created on the death and blood of the people who already existed before. It happens and in some cases there is no going back.

What HAS to happen NOW in our modern day is that Militants need to stop their bullshit and the Palestinian people NEED to clean house of these idiots and come to the table. Israel NEEDS to stop the spread of settlements and eventually agree on something to share this land. I recently built a new home and the guys that put the tile in my home were all Palestinians living here in America. There were 4 of them, I actually had a long talk about what they felt about it all and they told me that they do have a deep problem with Militants and Hamas and that all they wanted were the original agreed upon borders. They understand that the Militants are fucking it all up and they also understood Israel has the right to be there too. They just want the settlements spreading to stop and as long as the militants keep doing what they do, Israel will use it as an excuse to keep going. They all agreed that it was a vicious cycle.

So what needs to be done. Hamas and the militants need to stop.....then Israel would have no excuse to kill anyone or an excuse to spread more settlements and if Israel kept up it heavy handed ways, then the international community could really come down hard on Israel. What leg would Israel have to stand on if they arent being constantly attacked? Its not rocket science and please stop with the maps...everybody knows this crap....everybody knows the history but that isn't going to change what is happening NOW.....and one way or another both sides are going to have to realize that.
2008-03-06 05:47:52
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6607

B.Schuss wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


True.  The Arab nations don't give shit for Palestinians and they only seem to care just to push their own agenda against the Israelis, not out of real interest for Palestinians.  I always said this.  The thing is the Arabs aren't killing innocent Palestinians, and that's why we condemn Israel.  But you are right, the Arab nations are guilty of not helping Palestine.
Well, what if the Palestinians started setting up camp in those countries and Hamas started lobbing bombs at the nearest city and threatening the very existence of that country. Do you think that these countries would sit back and play nice? I highly doubt it.  Just look how quick the border closed up by Egypt. Didnt take long for them to hurd the Palestinians OFF THEIR LAND. Kind of a double standard........
this is true. Not even their fellow muslim brethren want anything to do with the plight of the palestinians. That is deplorable. But the palestinians don't want to settle in Egypt. Their homeland is palestine.
Which again included parts of other countries....not just what is inside the current Israeli borders.

 

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