That's a ratio of 1 in 50000lowing wrote:
Abu Grab is another example. This was a relatively small isolated incident compare to the whole war, involving 5 or 6 people out of 300,000. Yet the contradiction of what the US says it stands for, as apposed to this this event made this headline news for years and set back US efforts even longer.
True, but to make it sound as if its all Islam, and that our religeons didn't cause the same kinds of problems is very Naive. Terrorist's are fucked in the head, i agree, but 99.99999% of muslims are VERY honest hard working people that only want peace. Not all terrorist's are muslim by the way. They are just the latest flavour.Kmarion wrote:
We are talking continued about self destruction and lack of progress. Do you wanna go tit for tat in modern times? Killing each other is a daily event in the middle east. Once they stop picking ancient blood feuds over progress the sooner the bloodshed will stop.PluggedValve wrote:
All religeons are fucked. Not only Islam. Crusades much, abortion clinic killers, GW Bush???
Yeah, and soup kitchens and orphanages. I hate religion.PluggedValve wrote:
All religeons are fucked. Not only Islam. Crusades much, abortion clinic killers, GW Bush???
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.Kmarion wrote:
Your gaps in logic are so tremendous it's getting to be absurd now. So how is it exactly that a civilization that was so prosperous and intellectually superior was able to be duped and victimized by the "White Man". I suggest you pick up a history book. They were slaughtering each other long before "the white man" arrived. They will continue to butcher each other so long as people like you allow them a scapegoat (sectarian violence much?). Man up and take responsibility for crying out loud. Otherwise be content to marinate in your delusions of continuous victimization.Varegg wrote:
Ehr ... fact is the ME was a very prosperous part of the world before the "white" man showed up, of course they have had their fare share of regional conflicts but not particularly more than the rest of world.Kmarion wrote:
They've been trying to "understand" themselves for 4000 years. Times up. Stop blaming away their failures on civilizations that didn't exist until thousands of years after their inception. It's weak, narrow minded, and extremely short sighted. They have been their own worst enemies. It is their own leaders who have opened the door for the exploitation of their resources. When they stop making excuses, take personal responsibility, and treat their women equally then they can join the rest of the civilized world.
Colonialism took part in the ME and parts of Asia when most of the inventions we benefit so greatly from today took place either in our part of the world and tech passing through from Asia, the ME themselves had many a great breakthroughs in ancient times and was infact more civil than us 2000 years ago.
They stood fast under a British controlled colonial rule while the western parts of the world took the leap into the industrial and mechanized age much thanks to the same colonial rule, that is a gap it will take some time to even out and yes they bitch about it but not without some reason.
When exactly was the ME supposed to prosper after the crusades, name one century that they wasn't plundered and enslaved by either their enemies in the west or the Mongols & Timurids from the east ... the ME has been a hotspot for conflicts since 2000+ years ago and still the scars are visible ...
Take that into consideration when you (meaning all of you) call Islam a violent religion ...
Even most progressive Muslims recognize this inherent flaw in their culture.
Not sure the point you are making........JahManRed wrote:
That's a ratio of 1 in 50000lowing wrote:
Abu Grab is another example. This was a relatively small isolated incident compare to the whole war, involving 5 or 6 people out of 300,000. Yet the contradiction of what the US says it stands for, as apposed to this this event made this headline news for years and set back US efforts even longer.
Lets Say their are 20 000 extremist Muslims who regularly commit Jihad. So that's 20 000 out of 1.2billion.
That's a ratio of 1 in 60000
Well, everyone else grew out of the 11th century is it too much to ask that Islam do the same?Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.Kmarion wrote:
Your gaps in logic are so tremendous it's getting to be absurd now. So how is it exactly that a civilization that was so prosperous and intellectually superior was able to be duped and victimized by the "White Man". I suggest you pick up a history book. They were slaughtering each other long before "the white man" arrived. They will continue to butcher each other so long as people like you allow them a scapegoat (sectarian violence much?). Man up and take responsibility for crying out loud. Otherwise be content to marinate in your delusions of continuous victimization.Varegg wrote:
Ehr ... fact is the ME was a very prosperous part of the world before the "white" man showed up, of course they have had their fare share of regional conflicts but not particularly more than the rest of world.
Colonialism took part in the ME and parts of Asia when most of the inventions we benefit so greatly from today took place either in our part of the world and tech passing through from Asia, the ME themselves had many a great breakthroughs in ancient times and was infact more civil than us 2000 years ago.
They stood fast under a British controlled colonial rule while the western parts of the world took the leap into the industrial and mechanized age much thanks to the same colonial rule, that is a gap it will take some time to even out and yes they bitch about it but not without some reason.
When exactly was the ME supposed to prosper after the crusades, name one century that they wasn't plundered and enslaved by either their enemies in the west or the Mongols & Timurids from the east ... the ME has been a hotspot for conflicts since 2000+ years ago and still the scars are visible ...
Take that into consideration when you (meaning all of you) call Islam a violent religion ...
Even most progressive Muslims recognize this inherent flaw in their culture.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
Just like everyone else, surfing, asking questions posed from ideas on this forum then googling, I also love my talk radio.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Lowing, what website do you frequent that points you to these articles? I know you don't make a habit of reading a local small time newspaper.
They are an extreme minority.lowing wrote:
Not sure the point you are making........JahManRed wrote:
That's a ratio of 1 in 50000lowing wrote:
Abu Grab is another example. This was a relatively small isolated incident compare to the whole war, involving 5 or 6 people out of 300,000. Yet the contradiction of what the US says it stands for, as apposed to this this event made this headline news for years and set back US efforts even longer.
Lets Say their are 20 000 extremist Muslims who regularly commit Jihad. So that's 20 000 out of 1.2billion.
That's a ratio of 1 in 60000
I am pretty sure it is the comparison that I already made and acknowledged in my original post that this paragraph came from.Spark wrote:
They are an extreme minority.lowing wrote:
Not sure the point you are making........JahManRed wrote:
That's a ratio of 1 in 50000
Lets Say their are 20 000 extremist Muslims who regularly commit Jihad. So that's 20 000 out of 1.2billion.
That's a ratio of 1 in 60000
That's what they're saying. If you want to talk about terrorists in the same context as Islam, well, then, there's no reason others can't talk about Abu Ghraib in the context of the US Military. It's a perfectly fair comparison in terms of numbers.
When people say crusades or abortion clinics I want to rip my eyes out. Trying to compare an event that old or an event that rarely happens to the daily carnage cause by islam is fucking retarded.Kmarion wrote:
We are talking continued about self destruction and lack of progress. Do you wanna go tit for tat in modern times? Killing each other is a daily event in the middle east. Once they stop picking ancient blood feuds over progress the sooner the bloodshed will stop.PluggedValve wrote:
All religeons are fucked. Not only Islam. Crusades much, abortion clinic killers, GW Bush???
It's not about who grew out of the 11th century lowing, it is about trying to understand their motives ... our history made us who we are and that goes for all nations and regions - that they now are incapable of progress in some countries in the ME is because of several factors, not only one ... their history is one small part of that and that is one of the points i'm trying to get across.lowing wrote:
Well, everyone else grew out of the 11th century is it too much to ask that Islam do the same?Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.Kmarion wrote:
Your gaps in logic are so tremendous it's getting to be absurd now. So how is it exactly that a civilization that was so prosperous and intellectually superior was able to be duped and victimized by the "White Man". I suggest you pick up a history book. They were slaughtering each other long before "the white man" arrived. They will continue to butcher each other so long as people like you allow them a scapegoat (sectarian violence much?). Man up and take responsibility for crying out loud. Otherwise be content to marinate in your delusions of continuous victimization.
Even most progressive Muslims recognize this inherent flaw in their culture.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
I don't give a shit about their history, there is no excuse or reason that will I lend my approval of their behavior, especially toward women and childrenVaregg wrote:
It's not about who grew out of the 11th century lowing, it is about trying to understand their motives ... our history made us who we are and that goes for all nations and regions - that they now are incapable of progress in some countries in the ME is because of several factors, not only one ... their history is one small part of that and that is one of the points i'm trying to get across.lowing wrote:
Well, everyone else grew out of the 11th century is it too much to ask that Islam do the same?Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
I can't possibly understand how hard that is to comprehend that there are several factors and not only one ...
Was i asking for you to approve their behavior ? ... i don't approve their behaviour ffs - all i'm asking is for you to try and understand what causes their behaviour.lowing wrote:
I don't give a shit about their history, there is no excuse or reason that will I lend my approval of their behavior, especially toward women and childrenVaregg wrote:
It's not about who grew out of the 11th century lowing, it is about trying to understand their motives ... our history made us who we are and that goes for all nations and regions - that they now are incapable of progress in some countries in the ME is because of several factors, not only one ... their history is one small part of that and that is one of the points i'm trying to get across.lowing wrote:
Well, everyone else grew out of the 11th century is it too much to ask that Islam do the same?
I can't possibly understand how hard that is to comprehend that there are several factors and not only one ...
To "understand" their behavior is excusing it. I will do neither.Varegg wrote:
Was i asking for you to approve their behavior ? ... i don't approve their behaviour ffs - all i'm asking is for you to try and understand what causes their behaviour.lowing wrote:
I don't give a shit about their history, there is no excuse or reason that will I lend my approval of their behavior, especially toward women and childrenVaregg wrote:
It's not about who grew out of the 11th century lowing, it is about trying to understand their motives ... our history made us who we are and that goes for all nations and regions - that they now are incapable of progress in some countries in the ME is because of several factors, not only one ... their history is one small part of that and that is one of the points i'm trying to get across.
I can't possibly understand how hard that is to comprehend that there are several factors and not only one ...
Believe it or not I'm not taking sides neither. I feel that their biggest historical enemy has been themselves. I'm not blind to the fact that other people have exploited them as well. I can be critical and understanding at the same time. To understand why things happen is not to agree with the response. But to be honest they need to start looking inwards if they want to solve their core issues. The long overdue reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. The first step is to actually seek progress. Many of their political and religious leaders are happy in their role and have no desire for it. Equality for women might not hurt also.Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.Kmarion wrote:
Your gaps in logic are so tremendous it's getting to be absurd now. So how is it exactly that a civilization that was so prosperous and intellectually superior was able to be duped and victimized by the "White Man". I suggest you pick up a history book. They were slaughtering each other long before "the white man" arrived. They will continue to butcher each other so long as people like you allow them a scapegoat (sectarian violence much?). Man up and take responsibility for crying out loud. Otherwise be content to marinate in your delusions of continuous victimization.Varegg wrote:
Ehr ... fact is the ME was a very prosperous part of the world before the "white" man showed up, of course they have had their fare share of regional conflicts but not particularly more than the rest of world.
Colonialism took part in the ME and parts of Asia when most of the inventions we benefit so greatly from today took place either in our part of the world and tech passing through from Asia, the ME themselves had many a great breakthroughs in ancient times and was infact more civil than us 2000 years ago.
They stood fast under a British controlled colonial rule while the western parts of the world took the leap into the industrial and mechanized age much thanks to the same colonial rule, that is a gap it will take some time to even out and yes they bitch about it but not without some reason.
When exactly was the ME supposed to prosper after the crusades, name one century that they wasn't plundered and enslaved by either their enemies in the west or the Mongols & Timurids from the east ... the ME has been a hotspot for conflicts since 2000+ years ago and still the scars are visible ...
Take that into consideration when you (meaning all of you) call Islam a violent religion ...
Even most progressive Muslims recognize this inherent flaw in their culture.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
Couldn't agree more tbh ... i just recent people talking shit about something they know nothing about except from the headlinesKmarion wrote:
Believe it or not I'm not taking sides neither. I feel that their biggest historical enemy has been themselves. I'm not blind to the fact that other people have exploited them as well. I can be critical and understanding at the same time. But to be honest they need to start looking inwards if they want to solve their core issues. The long overdue reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. The first step is to actually seek progress. Many of their political and religious leaders are happy in their role and have no desire for it. Equality for women might not hurt also.Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.Kmarion wrote:
Your gaps in logic are so tremendous it's getting to be absurd now. So how is it exactly that a civilization that was so prosperous and intellectually superior was able to be duped and victimized by the "White Man". I suggest you pick up a history book. They were slaughtering each other long before "the white man" arrived. They will continue to butcher each other so long as people like you allow them a scapegoat (sectarian violence much?). Man up and take responsibility for crying out loud. Otherwise be content to marinate in your delusions of continuous victimization.
Even most progressive Muslims recognize this inherent flaw in their culture.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my previous post, I blame the white man.
Ahhhhh, I take it that was addressed to me. well let me respond.Varegg wrote:
Couldn't agree more tbh ... i just recent people talking shit about something they know nothing about except from the headlinesKmarion wrote:
Believe it or not I'm not taking sides neither. I feel that their biggest historical enemy has been themselves. I'm not blind to the fact that other people have exploited them as well. I can be critical and understanding at the same time. But to be honest they need to start looking inwards if they want to solve their core issues. The long overdue reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. The first step is to actually seek progress. Many of their political and religious leaders are happy in their role and have no desire for it. Equality for women might not hurt also.Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my previous post, I blame the white man.
Last edited by lowing (2008-03-08 09:41:52)
It wasn't adressed to you in particular, however if you feel it was just so then maybe it waslowing wrote:
Ahhhhh, I take it that was addressed to me. well let me respond.Varegg wrote:
Couldn't agree more tbh ... i just recent people talking shit about something they know nothing about except from the headlinesKmarion wrote:
Believe it or not I'm not taking sides neither. I feel that their biggest historical enemy has been themselves. I'm not blind to the fact that other people have exploited them as well. I can be critical and understanding at the same time. But to be honest they need to start looking inwards if they want to solve their core issues. The long overdue reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. The first step is to actually seek progress. Many of their political and religious leaders are happy in their role and have no desire for it. Equality for women might not hurt also.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my previous post, I blame the white man.
There is nothing I need to "understand" about the brutality and the archaic and outdated 11 century mannerisms in which the majority of the people of this religion in the ME adhere to and expect accommodations for.
again...To "understand" their behavior is excusing it. I will do neither.Varegg wrote:
Couldn't agree more tbh ... i just recent people talking shit about something they know nothing about except from the headlinesKmarion wrote:
Believe it or not I'm not taking sides neither. I feel that their biggest historical enemy has been themselves. I'm not blind to the fact that other people have exploited them as well. I can be critical and understanding at the same time. But to be honest they need to start looking inwards if they want to solve their core issues. The long overdue reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. The first step is to actually seek progress. Many of their political and religious leaders are happy in their role and have no desire for it. Equality for women might not hurt also.Varegg wrote:
I think you gravely misunderstand my intentions here Kerry, i'm not taking sides at all.
I have much the same view as you when it comes to todays Muslims, i'm fully aware of their continuous victimization and fact is they where at one point a prouder people than today ... of course they have themselves mostly to blame for their situation.
But as mentioned we all come with a history to the brawl and that is the failure of most to not recognize the underlying pressure of a conflict but rather take the medias biased version of it witch was initially the topic at hand ...
^^ That was my logic and for the record i have no delusions for peace in that area for a long time to come as certain others.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my previous post, I blame the white man.