Schittloaf
not fulla schit
+23|6330|MN
funny how a minority group who wants to be noticed and have the "norm" changed to suit them of course they didnt put muslim only because there would be the fly on shit effect for that.

lets relate this to bf2 .
say you have a full server of 64 players . and a small group of 3 decide to stat pad . should that group of three push the issue so they have thier special part of the map to do so ?

or maybe they should go to a stat pad only server?

maybe those muslim women could have not pushed the issue and went somewhere else.
then they wouldnt have to cover it up by naming it women only hours.
zeidmaan
Member
+234|6842|Vienna

Schittloaf wrote:

lets relate this to bf2 .
say you have a full server of 64 players . and a small group of 3 decide to stat pad . should that group of three push the issue so they have thier special part of the map to do so ?

or maybe they should go to a stat pad only server?
That request would be unreasonable.
How bout this. The "hang out" room in my old dorm was for everyone. It had TV, table tennis etc. But once a week it was closed to "public" because a special interest group of 10ish students of Music Academy requested that they have some privacy to play together. It was a reasonable request in my opinion and I had no problem with that. There were private slots for Bible Reading and LAN parties too. If couple of junkies asked for a private slot once a week to do drugs, than that would be stupid and unreasonable.

I bet that Harvard has hundreds of examples like that already its just that this was scandalous to some because Muslims were involved.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

Schittloaf wrote:

funny how a minority group who wants to be noticed and have the "norm" changed to suit them of course they didnt put muslim only because there would be the fly on shit effect for that.

lets relate this to bf2 .
say you have a full server of 64 players . and a small group of 3 decide to stat pad . should that group of three push the issue so they have thier special part of the map to do so ?

or maybe they should go to a stat pad only server?

maybe those muslim women could have not pushed the issue and went somewhere else.
then they wouldnt have to cover it up by naming it women only hours.
Being a statpadder is against the rules, being a women or even a Muslim woman isn't ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
^*AlphA*^
F*ckers
+3,135|7166|The Hague, Netherlands

Varegg wrote:

Schittloaf wrote:

funny how a minority group who wants to be noticed and have the "norm" changed to suit them of course they didnt put muslim only because there would be the fly on shit effect for that.

lets relate this to bf2 .
say you have a full server of 64 players . and a small group of 3 decide to stat pad . should that group of three push the issue so they have thier special part of the map to do so ?

or maybe they should go to a stat pad only server?

maybe those muslim women could have not pushed the issue and went somewhere else.
then they wouldnt have to cover it up by naming it women only hours.
Being a statpadder is against the rules, being a women or even a Muslim woman isn't ...
+ you can't stop just being a woman.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36eac2cb6af70a43508fd8d1c93d3201f4e23435.png
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

I do not see soldiers, handicapped pregnant women, etc as special interest groups however, because, they include ALL soldiers handicapped and pregnant women  of all diversities.
Don't think you grasp the very concept of what a special interest group is lowing or is it a problem when the wrong special interest group demands something ?
I Don't think you grasp the very concept of what a special interest group is in the context of this thread.

BLACK soldiers is a special interest group...........not a soldier.

WHITE handicapped people is a special interest group.....not handicapped people.

INDIAN pregnant women are a special interest group......not pregnant women.

MUSLIM women are a special interest group .........not women



You can get as general as you want to, hell if you want, you can call families special interest groups......but in the context of this thread we are a little more specific.....and I think you know that.
Now that is just pure wrong lowing ... a special interest group may vary in size and composition, a soldier can be in a SIG, a black soldier in a smaller SIG, a black Muslim soldier in a even smaller SIG - a pregnant woman can be in a SIG, a handicapped Muslim pregnant soldier woman can be in a SIG ... women in general can also be a SIG if they want to.

You can't difine what a SIG is to meet your arguments for this topic alone lowing, the definition of what a SIG is in the context of this thread is also what the context is outside this topic ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:


Don't think you grasp the very concept of what a special interest group is lowing or is it a problem when the wrong special interest group demands something ?
I Don't think you grasp the very concept of what a special interest group is in the context of this thread.

BLACK soldiers is a special interest group...........not a soldier.

WHITE handicapped people is a special interest group.....not handicapped people.

INDIAN pregnant women are a special interest group......not pregnant women.

MUSLIM women are a special interest group .........not women



You can get as general as you want to, hell if you want, you can call families special interest groups......but in the context of this thread we are a little more specific.....and I think you know that.
Now that is just pure wrong lowing ... a special interest group may vary in size and composition, a soldier can be in a SIG, a black soldier in a smaller SIG, a black Muslim soldier in a even smaller SIG - a pregnant woman can be in a SIG, a handicapped Muslim pregnant soldier woman can be in a SIG ... women in general can also be a SIG if they want to.

You can't difine what a SIG is to meet your arguments for this topic alone lowing, the definition of what a SIG is in the context of this thread is also what the context is outside this topic ...
Great, then I am a special interest group because I need someone to point in the direction of the restroom so I can take a shit, which makes me obviously a hypacrite. Gotcha


Like I said you can get as general as you want to, and apparently you have.......
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7269|Cologne, Germany

but don't you find it ironic, lowing, that your definition of a special interest groups seems to involve either race/ color of skin or religion, more specifically non-white, non-christian people ?

Do special interest groups always equal minorities ?

If a group of female WASP's had made the same request, would they be a special interest group ?

I think the underlying cultural issue is that we have two conflicting schools of thought here.

One, stemming from our democratic principles, is that the will of the majority overrides the will of the minority. We do as is deemed best for the majority of the people. We elect into office whoever gets the majority of votes. In our contect this would mean that our gyms are co-ed, because that is what the majority of students consider to be the norm. This is the standard, so-to-speak.

But we have also learned that minorities also have rights and that it is important to reckognize those rights, and not to discriminate against said minorities because of their religion, color of skin, or sexual orientation. We have learned that it is a trademark of tolerant, free societies that minorities are treated fairly, and that their special requirements are being adressed whenever this is feasible. And we want to be live in tolerant, free societies, don't we ? We want to respect the beliefs and traditions of other people, don't we ?
Because, who knows, one day, one of us might belong to a minority, and then, what do you do ?

I don't think there is a perfect solution that adresses every possible situation, just as I think that there is no fixed, forever-valid definition of what a special interest group is. Each issue must be adressed individually, and the end result may very well be a compromise, as in our case.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:


I Don't think you grasp the very concept of what a special interest group is in the context of this thread.

BLACK soldiers is a special interest group...........not a soldier.

WHITE handicapped people is a special interest group.....not handicapped people.

INDIAN pregnant women are a special interest group......not pregnant women.

MUSLIM women are a special interest group .........not women



You can get as general as you want to, hell if you want, you can call families special interest groups......but in the context of this thread we are a little more specific.....and I think you know that.
Now that is just pure wrong lowing ... a special interest group may vary in size and composition, a soldier can be in a SIG, a black soldier in a smaller SIG, a black Muslim soldier in a even smaller SIG - a pregnant woman can be in a SIG, a handicapped Muslim pregnant soldier woman can be in a SIG ... women in general can also be a SIG if they want to.

You can't difine what a SIG is to meet your arguments for this topic alone lowing, the definition of what a SIG is in the context of this thread is also what the context is outside this topic ...
Great, then I am a special interest group because I need someone to point in the direction of the restroom so I can take a shit, which makes me obviously a hypacrite. Gotcha


Like I said you can get as general as you want to, and apparently you have.......
You really do have a hard time admitting you are wrong - adding a BS comentary like that ruins your other credible posts
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Schittloaf
not fulla schit
+23|6330|MN

^*AlphA*^ wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Schittloaf wrote:

funny how a minority group who wants to be noticed and have the "norm" changed to suit them of course they didn't put Muslim only because there would be the fly on shit effect for that.

lets relate this to bf2 .
say you have a full server of 64 players . and a small group of 3 decide to stat pad . should that group of three push the issue so they have their special part of the map to do so ?

or maybe they should go to a stat pad only server?

maybe those Muslim women could have not pushed the issue and went somewhere else.
then they wouldn't have to cover it up by naming it women only hours.
Being a statpadder is against the rules, being a women or even a Muslim woman isn't ...
+ you can't stop just being a woman.
you missed my point . wasn't about weather or not stat padding was breaking rules. 
ever heard of "Curves for Women" its a ladies only gym.  couldn't they just go there. even have the college pick up the tab instead of making an issue and making the rules bend for them .
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

Schittloaf wrote:

^*AlphA*^ wrote:

Varegg wrote:


Being a statpadder is against the rules, being a women or even a Muslim woman isn't ...
+ you can't stop just being a woman.
you missed my point . wasn't about weather or not stat padding was breaking rules. 
ever heard of "Curves for Women" its a ladies only gym.  couldn't they just go there. even have the college pick up the tab instead of making an issue and making the rules bend for them .
Why spend money on something that is free on campus ? ... and it's not bending the rules, it's making the rules better ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6873|The Land of Scott Walker
It's banning everyone else for those hours.  How is that better or fair?
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7074
They should probably ask to have lesbians also be banned to make it fair.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6873|The Land of Scott Walker
I see what you did there ...
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

B.Schuss wrote:

but don't you find it ironic, lowing, that your definition of a special interest groups seems to involve either race/ color of skin or religion, more specifically non-white, non-christian people ?

Do special interest groups always equal minorities ?

If a group of female WASP's had made the same request, would they be a special interest group ?

I think the underlying cultural issue is that we have two conflicting schools of thought here.

One, stemming from our democratic principles, is that the will of the majority overrides the will of the minority. We do as is deemed best for the majority of the people. We elect into office whoever gets the majority of votes. In our contect this would mean that our gyms are co-ed, because that is what the majority of students consider to be the norm. This is the standard, so-to-speak.

But we have also learned that minorities also have rights and that it is important to reckognize those rights, and not to discriminate against said minorities because of their religion, color of skin, or sexual orientation. We have learned that it is a trademark of tolerant, free societies that minorities are treated fairly, and that their special requirements are being adressed whenever this is feasible. And we want to be live in tolerant, free societies, don't we ? We want to respect the beliefs and traditions of other people, don't we ?
Because, who knows, one day, one of us might belong to a minority, and then, what do you do ?

I don't think there is a perfect solution that adresses every possible situation, just as I think that there is no fixed, forever-valid definition of what a special interest group is. Each issue must be adressed individually, and the end result may very well be a compromise, as in our case.
Good post, and you are correct. But make no mistake on my position, yes, white people have their special interest groups as well, and I am against them.

Minorites have rights, you are correct, they have the same rights as white people, without a doubt. They do not deserve SPECIAL rights, to accomadate them or their religion or culture or anything else. The same goes for white people, NO special rights are granted white people, as it should be.

There is a perfect solution to address these problems. That solution is to hold EVERYONE to the same standard. Period.  No special favors no special rights no special previdges. Now, people on this forum refuse to see the difference in what I am saying, and want to take that to the extreme as to not put in handicap ramps and shit just to prove a point. I am sorry, there is nothing I can do about there overdramatizing the discussion.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Now that is just pure wrong lowing ... a special interest group may vary in size and composition, a soldier can be in a SIG, a black soldier in a smaller SIG, a black Muslim soldier in a even smaller SIG - a pregnant woman can be in a SIG, a handicapped Muslim pregnant soldier woman can be in a SIG ... women in general can also be a SIG if they want to.

You can't difine what a SIG is to meet your arguments for this topic alone lowing, the definition of what a SIG is in the context of this thread is also what the context is outside this topic ...
Great, then I am a special interest group because I need someone to point in the direction of the restroom so I can take a shit, which makes me obviously a hypacrite. Gotcha


Like I said you can get as general as you want to, and apparently you have.......
You really do have a hard time admitting you are wrong - adding a BS comentary like that ruins your other credible posts
I am not wrong, you are trying to make EVERYONE a special interest group for everything that has been done, in order to save your argument. Soldiers, handicapped, women. You know damn well what I am talking about in the context of this discussion, yet you refuse to acknowledge that Muslim women and their request is a special interest group seeking social favors, yet you want to throw at me that soldiers are a special interest group because they have benefits for being soldiers....I am afraid you are the one who can not admit you are wrong.

Last edited by lowing (2008-03-11 15:56:18)

Schittloaf
not fulla schit
+23|6330|MN
I personally think its totally religion/ race related.  and I'm tired of the whole thing.

I am christian so .. i guess they should make a no gays or non christian hours there too ..

just more bullcrap being shoved down our throats.  like i said before . they can go to a ladies only gym and quit bitching about costs . if they wanna work out without some guy starring because that lady is wearing a cloth over their face . go somewhere else. shit even Michael Jackson could sneak in with his disguise
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:


Great, then I am a special interest group because I need someone to point in the direction of the restroom so I can take a shit, which makes me obviously a hypacrite. Gotcha


Like I said you can get as general as you want to, and apparently you have.......
You really do have a hard time admitting you are wrong - adding a BS comentary like that ruins your other credible posts
I am not wrong, you are trying to make EVERYONE a special interest group for everything that has been done, in order to save your argument. Soldiers, handicapped, women. You know damn well what I am talking about in the context of this discussion, yet you refuse to acknowledge that Muslim women and their request is a special interest group seeking social favors, yet you want to throw at me that soldiers are a special interest group because they have benefits for being soldiers....I am afraid you are the one who can not admit you are wrong.
I have no problem admitting i am wrong when proven so, no problem what so ever ...

I have through all my posts in this thread acknowledged that the Muslim women in this case is a special interest group and that they requested sosial favors accordingly and was granted correctly a few hours pr week in one of many gyms on the Harvard campus ...

And it's not about saving my arguments lowing, you and a couple of others are in clear minority in this issue and reacts to something out of proportion - if this had been just a group of women asking it wouldn't have made the news at all, but as soon as the word Muslim is in the equation you guys screams for unjustice against all the other students on campus that are banned from just one of many gyms a very few odd hours pr week.

I hope you are man enough if that day should come when you are part of a special interest group seeking special favors to turn those down because you think all people should be treated equally no matter what ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:


You really do have a hard time admitting you are wrong - adding a BS comentary like that ruins your other credible posts
I am not wrong, you are trying to make EVERYONE a special interest group for everything that has been done, in order to save your argument. Soldiers, handicapped, women. You know damn well what I am talking about in the context of this discussion, yet you refuse to acknowledge that Muslim women and their request is a special interest group seeking social favors, yet you want to throw at me that soldiers are a special interest group because they have benefits for being soldiers....I am afraid you are the one who can not admit you are wrong.
I have no problem admitting i am wrong when proven so, no problem what so ever ...

I have through all my posts in this thread acknowledged that the Muslim women in this case is a special interest group and that they requested social favors accordingly and was granted correctly a few hours pr week in one of many gyms on the Harvard campus ...

And it's not about saving my arguments lowing, you and a couple of others are in clear minority in this issue and reacts to something out of proportion - if this had been just a group of women asking it wouldn't have made the news at all, but as soon as the word Muslim is in the equation you guys screams for unjustice against all the other students on campus that are banned from just one of many gyms a very few odd hours pr week.

I hope you are man enough if that day should come when you are part of a special interest group seeking special favors to turn those down because you think all people should be treated equally no matter what ...
Ok, so you now admit what I have been saying all along, this is a special interest group receiving special treatment. Now it is just a matter of if we agree on whether it is proper or not.

This issue is not about the SIZE of the special treatment or its impact on society. This is about the fact that special interest has requested and received special treatment based on religion, culture, ethnicity etc.........and that my friend is discrimination, ESPECIALLY, if that favor were awarded toward white people.

If WHITE women asked for special hours at the gym because they were uncomfortable around the black men that worked out while they were there, and the administration agreed to create special hours for all women because of this request, the social impact would be the same, but I believe you and everyone else would then join me in throwing a bullshit flag on the issue. I am consistent in my beliefs, how bout you??

I have never had any reason to need special favors granted to me that are not afforded to everyone else as a right or a privilege. I just do not command special attention in life.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Ok, so you now admit what I have been saying all along, this is a special interest group receiving special treatment. Now it is just a matter of if we agree on whether it is proper or not.
No i don't admit that now, that has been my opinion the entire time that this is a special interest group.

lowing wrote:

This issue is not about the SIZE of the special treatment or its impact on society. This is about the fact that special interest has requested and received special treatment based on religion, culture, ethnicity etc.........and that my friend is discrimination, ESPECIALLY, if that favor were awarded toward white people.
It is not discrimination to grant a special interest group favors if the process of doing so is a correct one, if you think it is you should check the definition of discrimination ...

lowing wrote:

If WHITE women asked for special hours at the gym because they were uncomfortable around the black men that worked out while they were there, and the administration agreed to create special hours for all women because of this request, the social impact would be the same, but I believe you and everyone else would then join me in throwing a bullshit flag on the issue. I am consistent in my beliefs, how bout you??
That never happened and isn't the issue at hand, when that situation occours it is a new debate ...

lowing wrote:

I have never had any reason to need special favors granted to me that are not afforded to everyone else as a right or a privilege. I just do not command special attention in life.
That may change you know - it could happen to you or someone you know, i'm sure you will think differently when or if it does
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ok, so you now admit what I have been saying all along, this is a special interest group receiving special treatment. Now it is just a matter of if we agree on whether it is proper or not.
No i don't admit that now, that has been my opinion the entire time that this is a special interest group.

lowing wrote:

This issue is not about the SIZE of the special treatment or its impact on society. This is about the fact that special interest has requested and received special treatment based on religion, culture, ethnicity etc.........and that my friend is discrimination, ESPECIALLY, if that favor were awarded toward white people.
It is not discrimination to grant a special interest group favors if the process of doing so is a correct one, if you think it is you should check the definition of discrimination ...

lowing wrote:

If WHITE women asked for special hours at the gym because they were uncomfortable around the black men that worked out while they were there, and the administration agreed to create special hours for all women because of this request, the social impact would be the same, but I believe you and everyone else would then join me in throwing a bullshit flag on the issue. I am consistent in my beliefs, how bout you??
That never happened and isn't the issue at hand, when that situation occours it is a new debate ...

lowing wrote:

I have never had any reason to need special favors granted to me that are not afforded to everyone else as a right or a privilege. I just do not command special attention in life.
That may change you know - it could happen to you or someone you know, i'm sure you will think differently when or if it does
Ok we agree then completely, this special interest seeking special favor. You just approve of it, I do not.

2. "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit" <-----discrimination, note it does not mention the right or wrong of it.

3. Hypotheticals are used all the time in this forum, I posed one to you. So tell the truth and answer it.

4. Not hardly, I am getting along just fine with out the need for the govt. or society to step up and throw me a SPECIAL bone.

Last edited by lowing (2008-03-12 19:35:22)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA
Well, so what is this? I drop a completely plausible hypothetical out there and all of sudden retox and Varegg no longer wanna play? Where are you guys?? Could it be the truth would exposeyour positions as inconsistent , or is it the  double standard you would have to admit to that is so bothersome?.........Oh well
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6718|Éire

lowing wrote:

Well, so what is this? I drop a completely plausible hypothetical out there and all of sudden retox and Varegg no longer wanna play? Where are you guys?? Could it be the truth would exposeyour positions as inconsistent , or is it the  double standard you would have to admit to that is so bothersome?.........Oh well
Why are you so obsessed with Muslims buddy? Granted this special allowance in Harvard is another silly example of political correctness 'fear of annoying a minority syndrome' but who really cares? Do you attend Harvard? Why aren't you shouting from the rooftops when people high up in Government lie to you? Your obsession with minutiae while ignoring the larger political hot potatoes just seems to me like fiddling while Rome is burning.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7237|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Well, so what is this? I drop a completely plausible hypothetical out there and all of sudden retox and Varegg no longer wanna play? Where are you guys?? Could it be the truth would exposeyour positions as inconsistent , or is it the  double standard you would have to admit to that is so bothersome?.........Oh well
Could also be that the debate have reached a stage where everyone else but you are quite finished with the issue lowing, you may one day come to the conclusion that not all Muslims are out to get you ... prolly not but maybe.

Like tonight i have rather spend 4 hours playing games than discussing a debate where afaik i don't have anything else to contribute, you will never change your mind about anything no matter how strong the arguments are so what's the point, we could go on another 5 pages but it would not lead us any further ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7079|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well, so what is this? I drop a completely plausible hypothetical out there and all of sudden retox and Varegg no longer wanna play? Where are you guys?? Could it be the truth would exposeyour positions as inconsistent , or is it the  double standard you would have to admit to that is so bothersome?.........Oh well
Could also be that the debate have reached a stage where everyone else but you are quite finished with the issue lowing, you may one day come to the conclusion that not all Muslims are out to get you ... prolly not but maybe.

Like tonight i have rather spend 4 hours playing games than discussing a debate where afaik i don't have anything else to contribute, you will never change your mind about anything no matter how strong the arguments are so what's the point, we could go on another 5 pages but it would not lead us any further ...
.....and all you really needed to do was be honest and answer the question........I understand why you refuse, so I will let it go.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6558|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

.....and all you really needed to do was be honest and answer the question........I understand why you refuse, so I will let it go.
lowing, did these women say they were uncomfortable around white men only?  Didn't think so.  Their grievance was about men in general, but you added race to the mix, changing it.  That hypothetical is not relevant to the discussion.

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