That tells us that whatever ideology he followed is prone to militance. I'm assuming he was a left-wing extremist.Bertster7 wrote:
Only takes one nutter...Turquoise wrote:
...and if Muslims kill these people instead of shrugging off their nonsense, that only legitimizes what they are saying.Bertster7 wrote:
They are very wrong and Geert Wilders is a fuckwit. Listen to what people from the Netherlands who are actually acquainted with the situation have to say. This is a man who wanted the Dutch constitution suspended to combat Islam and suggested getting Muslims immigrating to the Netherlands to tear up the Koran.
Look, as I've said before, most Muslims are sensible people, but perhaps, the kinds of Muslims that end up in the Netherlands are more extremist than the ones who come to places like America. There seems to be a good amount of evidence in various countries like the U.K., France, and the Netherlands that Muslims might be generally more militant in Europe than the Muslims who come to America.
It kind of makes sense if you think about it. It takes a lot more effort to come all the way to America than it does to immigrate to Europe. It would make sense that mostly Muslims that are more liberal would go so far as to enter America because of the effort involved. A lot of the Muslims that come to Europe seem only interested in economic opportunity, which is understandable, but it also looks as if some of them have brought with them a serious lack of tolerance.
It wasn't a Muslim who murdered Fortuyn anyway. Just a Dutchman pissed off with all his hateful rhetoric.
Which tells us what?
Animal rights nutter I think.Turquoise wrote:
That tells us that whatever ideology he followed is prone to militance. I'm assuming he was a left-wing extremist.Bertster7 wrote:
Only takes one nutter...Turquoise wrote:
...and if Muslims kill these people instead of shrugging off their nonsense, that only legitimizes what they are saying.
Look, as I've said before, most Muslims are sensible people, but perhaps, the kinds of Muslims that end up in the Netherlands are more extremist than the ones who come to places like America. There seems to be a good amount of evidence in various countries like the U.K., France, and the Netherlands that Muslims might be generally more militant in Europe than the Muslims who come to America.
It kind of makes sense if you think about it. It takes a lot more effort to come all the way to America than it does to immigrate to Europe. It would make sense that mostly Muslims that are more liberal would go so far as to enter America because of the effort involved. A lot of the Muslims that come to Europe seem only interested in economic opportunity, which is understandable, but it also looks as if some of them have brought with them a serious lack of tolerance.
It wasn't a Muslim who murdered Fortuyn anyway. Just a Dutchman pissed off with all his hateful rhetoric.
Which tells us what?
I'd say it tells us this is not limited to Muslims and treating it as a Muslim issue rather than a general social issue is a big mistake and will only serve to exacerbate tensions between different ethic groups in the Netherlands.
I can agree with that. I think society should shun extremism of all kinds, but it certainly should also condemn the murder of said extremists (unless those extremists are murdering people themselves).Bertster7 wrote:
Animal rights nutter I think.Turquoise wrote:
That tells us that whatever ideology he followed is prone to militance. I'm assuming he was a left-wing extremist.Bertster7 wrote:
Only takes one nutter...
It wasn't a Muslim who murdered Fortuyn anyway. Just a Dutchman pissed off with all his hateful rhetoric.
Which tells us what?
I'd say it tells us this is not limited to Muslims and treating it as a Muslim issue rather than a general social issue is a big mistake and will only serve to exacerbate tensions between different ethic groups in the Netherlands.
Basically, it's about being practical. Allow free speech, but tell things like they are without any PC bullshit. We shouldn't have to pretend that all Muslims are nice peace-loving people. That would be just as ridiculous as assuming that all of them are terrorists. And again, this should apply to all groups.
thats the thing here, most politicians are too scared to say whatever they want, then you have Wilders who says 95% crap stuff..Turquoise wrote:
I can agree with that. I think society should shun extremism of all kinds, but it certainly should also condemn the murder of said extremists (unless those extremists are murdering people themselves).Bertster7 wrote:
Animal rights nutter I think.Turquoise wrote:
That tells us that whatever ideology he followed is prone to militance. I'm assuming he was a left-wing extremist.
I'd say it tells us this is not limited to Muslims and treating it as a Muslim issue rather than a general social issue is a big mistake and will only serve to exacerbate tensions between different ethic groups in the Netherlands.
Basically, it's about being practical. Allow free speech, but tell things like they are without any PC bullshit. We shouldn't have to pretend that all Muslims are nice peace-loving people. That would be just as ridiculous as assuming that all of them are terrorists. And again, this should apply to all groups.
you had Fortuyn was a least was bit more realistic (1.614.801 voters in 2002) and he gets killed.
our biggest party are the CDA (Christian Democratic) and a puppet as Balkenende (CDA) as Prime Minister...
most said, "lets see the movie before we jump to conclusions, we don't even know what he is going to show"
do we? no...
My question is: why are they scared? What is keeping them from acknowledging reality?^*AlphA*^ wrote:
thats the thing here, most politicians are too scared to say whatever they want, then you have Wilders who says 95% crap stuff..
you had Fortuyn was a least was bit more realistic (1.614.801 voters in 2002) and he gets killed.
our biggest party are the CDA (Christian Democratic) and a puppet as Balkenende (CDA) as Prime Minister...
most said, "lets see the movie before we jump to conclusions, we don't even know what he is going to show"
do we? no...
the assasination of the 2 people above,Turquoise wrote:
My question is: why are they scared? What is keeping them from acknowledging reality?^*AlphA*^ wrote:
thats the thing here, most politicians are too scared to say whatever they want, then you have Wilders who says 95% crap stuff..
you had Fortuyn was a least was bit more realistic (1.614.801 voters in 2002) and he gets killed.
our biggest party are the CDA (Christian Democratic) and a puppet as Balkenende (CDA) as Prime Minister...
most said, "lets see the movie before we jump to conclusions, we don't even know what he is going to show"
do we? no...
to me it seems, they think when we say something bad about muslims we get murdered and The Netherlands is getting a bad reputation in foreign countries...
all the flag burning in those muslim countries is set up by some high figures there anyway... could you buy 'brand new' Danish and Dutch flags there before the cartoons for example...
you had Pim Fortuyn who really changed stuff here in The Hague, now nobody says jack shit, 'cept that idiot of a Wilders, if Fortuyn was still alive I am sure he would have been nowhere with his 'PVV' (Party of Freedom).
It sounds like the Netherlands needs a moderate conservative party. You could sort of think of this as a "practical patriotic" party. This party would encourage the blending of Muslim values with Dutch values for the sake of national unity but would fervently reject any practices or beliefs that would go against free society and gender equality.
In other words, it would be a precarious political balance, but it would effectively isolate the aspects of Islam that are truly a threat to Western life (mostly the mistreatment of women).
In other words, it would be a precarious political balance, but it would effectively isolate the aspects of Islam that are truly a threat to Western life (mostly the mistreatment of women).
Holland have already seperated themselves from the film in order to not get any backlash. No doubt there still will be dumbasses that hold the Dutch responsible.
Thank Allah for censorship. This film was going to nothing except show Islam aa violent, hateful and intolerant. We all know that this is generalizing and should not be tolerated. As a matter of fact I say this man should be hunted down and be-headed at once. How dare he speak out against such a peace loving religion and culture as Islam. If we must revoke free speech to stop all of the Islam bashing then, we damn well should do it. God, they are so mis-understood.
Last edited by lowing (2008-03-24 19:16:24)