Poll

Who is the best candidate for the job?

Barack Obama29%29% - 20
Hilary Clinton1%1% - 1
John McCain14%14% - 10
Ron Paul (is still in the race)22%22% - 15
Other (green, independent, etc.)1%1% - 1
Any of them will handle it well4%4% - 3
None of them will handle it well11%11% - 8
It doesn't matter, the president really can't help8%8% - 6
We are doomed, the end is nigh, everything is futile2%2% - 2
*No one, Bush will be in charge (read below)1%1% - 1
Total: 67
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6982

DrunkFace wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, the 'left' (more socialist) wing usually has higher government spending and transfer payment then that of the 'right' (more conservative) 'wing', who are more interested in the small business side of things then the individual. So from that stand point, a right wing party in theory should be better for the business world, the fiscal balance and the economy as a whole... (but it's not).

What I can agree on is "the US is screwed". Well at least for the short-medium term, but like everything, this is just the downside of the cycle which is inevitable and not unexpected.
Left wing governments tend to realise that the services they wish the government to provide have to be paid for and address this by adopting a suitable taxation policy. It's all swings and roundabouts anyway - right wingers come in and favour business and the rich elite and go too far leading to a malaise (corruption and social problems), left wingers come in redress the balance and then eventually go too far the other way stunting economic growth, right wingers come in and redress the balance and eventually go too far the other way, rinse and repeat. Of course none of this would occur if there was a centrist party people could rally around.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-03-23 10:00:54)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina
Probably the biggest problem in America politically is that the people aren't very realistic in their expectations of government.  They want it all: less taxes and more government benefits.

As long as politicians continue deceiving the people into believing this ridiculousness and as long as people are stupid enough to buy it, we will continue to run massive debts.

People will have to decide very soon whether they want lower taxes and lower benefits or more taxes and more benefits.  I personally prefer the former over the latter, but the only way we can move toward that possibility is to first leave Iraq.
beerface702
Member
+65|7120|las vegas
IS paul even in the race? I thought he dropped out
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

You gotta remember, America is a pretty conservative country compared to most of the First World.  We're closer to the Third World in our conservative nature.

Most of the First World is quite liberal and socialistic -- at least compared to us.
Let's not forget it was conservative economics that pulled us out of the Carter disaster. Bush's tax cuts also helped to stop the Clinton Recession from worsening. If he didn't spend money like a mad man we would be in excellent shape. Ironically it was the economic boom that he helped create that accelerated the housing market. This in turn brought out the greedy predatory lenders. The lending market fallout has been are worst problem. Unfortunately we've tried to stop the bleeding by cutting rates and offering incentives. The market has already shown signs of correcting itself on it's own. By cutting rates we are creating an even bigger problem. Of course it's not the president who decides to cut interest rates.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7042|do not disturb

FEOS wrote:

Sky falling much?

Recession? Yes

Severe recession? No

Depression? Of course not

Complete breakdown of society? Are you on crack?

Phrozenbot wrote:

If things get really nasty... I guess learn how to farm and hunt. This is just my opinion though. I have yet to see any good evidence supporting the bulls irrational exuberance that this is just a bump in the road and we are fine.
You have yet to see any good evidence supporting irrational paranoia, but you don't let that stop you. Why the double standard?
Double standard? I'm no expert but at least I provide some evidence supporting my view. Where is yours FEOS?

The big scare is that if Bear Sterns had to mark-to-market all its subprime backed CDOs, all of them might go bad throughout the entire market and JPMorgan has more than Bear Sterns. More banks and hedge funds will find themselves in the same position as Bear Sterns like Lehman Brothers.

https://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/7/z/q/1/irrational_exuberance.jpg

But I guess I could always listen to this guy. Even he admitted that the Fed was responsible for making the Great Depression "Great." In that case though he felt the Fed didn't act enough.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7042|do not disturb

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

there are so many god damn economists on this forum, why the hell arent you people in D.C. where all of your powers could be served for the common good?



Phrozen, what are you doing wasting your time here?  We need your help!
They didn't listen to David Walker when he talked about 60 trillion in debt and entitlements.

beerface702 wrote:

IS paul even in the race? I thought he dropped out
Yes, he'll be on the Montana ballot.

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2008-03-23 12:25:11)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Phrozenbot wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Sky falling much?

Recession? Yes

Severe recession? No

Depression? Of course not

Complete breakdown of society? Are you on crack?

Phrozenbot wrote:

If things get really nasty... I guess learn how to farm and hunt. This is just my opinion though. I have yet to see any good evidence supporting the bulls irrational exuberance that this is just a bump in the road and we are fine.
You have yet to see any good evidence supporting irrational paranoia, but you don't let that stop you. Why the double standard?
Double standard? I'm no expert but at least I provide some evidence supporting my view. Where is yours FEOS?
How about every financial analyst that DOESN'T subscribe to your belief in a deep depression and complete breakdown of society as we know it?

I'll go with that.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6946|Πάϊ

CameronPoe wrote:

Unfortunately there are no left wing parties in the US so I guess the US is screwed.
Nader?








yeah, I see your point...
ƒ³
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You gotta remember, America is a pretty conservative country compared to most of the First World.  We're closer to the Third World in our conservative nature.

Most of the First World is quite liberal and socialistic -- at least compared to us.
Let's not forget it was conservative economics that pulled us out of the Carter disaster. Bush's tax cuts also helped to stop the Clinton Recession from worsening. If he didn't spend money like a mad man we would be in excellent shape. Ironically it was the economic boom that he helped create that accelerated the housing market. This in turn brought out the greedy predatory lenders. The lending market fallout has been are worst problem. Unfortunately we've tried to stop the bleeding by cutting rates and offering incentives. The market has already shown signs of correcting itself on it's own. By cutting rates we are creating an even bigger problem. Of course it's not the president who decides to cut interest rates.
Good points, but voodoo economics only gets you so far.  What America really needs is someone willing to socialize medicine, secure the border, and spend less everywhere else, but that's not gonna happen.
eaglecorps
shotguns
+23|6670|TEXAS
Save us McCain! Save us!

Last edited by eaglecorps (2008-03-23 21:23:19)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command

eaglecorps wrote:

Save us Barrack! Save us!
Fixed.
Marinejuana
local
+415|7012|Seattle
the president is a spokesperson.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

eaglecorps wrote:

Save yourself!
Fixed.
Fixed fixed.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6917|Menlo Park, CA

Bertster7 wrote:

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

To redress the 8 year unchecked fiscal irresponsibility of a heavily right wing government it is now the turn of a left wing government for a while. Unfortunately there are no left wing parties in the US so I guess the US is screwed.
lol,wut?


The democratic party isn't left enough for you? What do they have to do; nationalize all industries and provide soup lines?
The democrats aren't even approaching being left wing by European standards.
THANK GOD!
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7101|Canberra, AUS
You guys really need some balance.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6800|Kyiv, Ukraine

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You gotta remember, America is a pretty conservative country compared to most of the First World.  We're closer to the Third World in our conservative nature.

Most of the First World is quite liberal and socialistic -- at least compared to us.
Let's not forget it was conservative economics that pulled us out of the Carter disaster. Bush's tax cuts also helped to stop the Clinton Recession from worsening. If he didn't spend money like a mad man we would be in excellent shape. Ironically it was the economic boom that he helped create that accelerated the housing market. This in turn brought out the greedy predatory lenders. The lending market fallout has been are worst problem. Unfortunately we've tried to stop the bleeding by cutting rates and offering incentives. The market has already shown signs of correcting itself on it's own. By cutting rates we are creating an even bigger problem. Of course it's not the president who decides to cut interest rates.
Wow, what a bunch of crap, and people just accepted this without question?

The Carter economy...inherited from Nixon/Ford, primarily a result of Nixon's inability to placate OPEC in '73.

The Clinon Recession, which was not a recession at all, was a result of the dot.com bubble burst which was quite predictable.  If anything, Clinton can be blamed for not reigning it in, but then the corporate wing would have had an even bigger cow.  Another conservative creation that made a no-win situation for the Democrat in power.  Subsequently the next flux was a result of September 11.  The complete deregulatory Bush reaction to the whole thing, which was basically a money grab (by de-regulation of the credit industry - bankruptcy law revision and mortgage/student loan deregulation) and easy sell-off to China, as well as spiralling war debt mixed with "Reaganomic" tax cuts, has lead to our current situation. 

To be fair to Bush though, a lot of people want to blame the price of oil/gas (major cause of inflationary pressure) on the Iraq war situation, it actually has not much to do with it.  China/India's rise in demand, along with OPEC greed, has basically pushed the commodity prices  for fossil fuels to completely crazy levels, regardless of Iraq's inability to produce at their old levels.  Iraq hasn't operated at full capacity since Bush I, and realy isn't a big factor.  The latest war just cut easy supplies to France (earning their ire) under the corrupt UN Oil-for-Food deal.

The Bush Repugs (and their Democrat enablers) can definitely take the blame for the credit bubble though, which basically amounted to steal from the poor and give to the rich robbery.  Other nasty policy eggs that have yet to hatch is the out-of-control spending (including war debt and national security outsourcing), failure to collect corporate taxes, allowing corporations to off-shore (like Halliburton) to tax havens, failure to enforce heavy fines for environmental damage and illegal immigrant hiring in some industries, and relaxation of consumer protection laws and human rights treaties which allows Chinese products to flood our markets with little oversight.  Basically, spending money like it was going out of style but not collecting dues.  This is going to create a very biting tax crunch in the near future for everyone.  But, so long as they can keep the finger pointed at illegal immigration and blame the Mexicans, everything is ok.  99% of the crap you buy at Wal-mart did not come from Mexico though, I promise.

Another huge Bushie problem is the complete lack of oversight and enforcement of trade commission policies.  No audits or cursory and meaningless audits means a lot of big investment firms have no idea, and cannot (or don't need to) disclose, just how much bad debt they carry in their portfolios.  This means nobody on Wall Street trusts each other any more and it makes it impossible to do honest business transactions.  Baer Stearns was just the tip of the ice berg.

Solutions:

1) Re-negotiate NAFTA with a multi-national minimum wage and regulatory enforcement so we at least stop bleeding jobs to south of the border, and reduce the inequality that causes the illegal immigration scare.  This is just a band-aid though, it will curb our economy just a bit until the corporations pick up and re-locate to Asian markets.  It will help for about 2 years or so.

2)  Stop the corporate welfare!  No more multi-billion dollar tax-payer bail-outs to irresponsible investment firms or poorly managed vital industries.  The US is the only country that gives away tax money like that.  If you absolutely need to bail out a company with tax-payer money, get something in return, like how France, Germany, Russia, and Britain does things...the Fed should put some major strings attached (like stock  ownership).  If you think an industry is vital enough to throw money at it, nationalize part of it so the taxpayer gets something in return.

3) Stop the outsourcing of federal jobs.  Putting government functions (especially military support and intelligence services) in the hands of for-profit private contracting companies makes them very much LESS efficient, susceptible to political agendas, and prone to error, corruption, and inaccuracy.

4) OVERSIGHT.  Make everyone who receives federal funds scared shitless of corruption.  Tax money comes out of people's pockets, make them realize that its not free or bottomless.  No more "no-bid contracts" or any other related shit.  Our mid-level bureaucrats are some of the most honest in the world, relatively speaking, this is an asset that should be used for the good of the US.

5) Shift Military Socialism to Public Works Socialism.  If we're going to prop up 12% of our economy on tax-payer funds (we already are under de facto socialism), then stop paying for crap that hurts us world-wide.  Do something useful with the money.  $2 Trillion on the Iraq War, down the garbage can.  Thats a lot of schools, hospitals, free health care, free education, green industry conversion, massive scientific research projects, etc, that are now denied to future generations.  Stop bleeding money.  American taxes should be invested in America...or do we think the Middle East or China are going to do us a big favor and prop us up when we fall or we have a little human rights issue?

If I had to pick one I would trust to at least start us on the right track, right now its Obama.  As for myself, screw hording food and water.  I'll just stick it out in the boom towns that are Eastern Europe right now.  I make almost $80,000/year and pay $500 income tax/year.  There are no illusions about what the government does for its people here, which is jack shit.  Somehow, society still functions.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6872|The Land of Scott Walker
Null.  Ronaldus Magnus.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Solutions:

1) Re-negotiate NAFTA with a multi-national minimum wage and regulatory enforcement so we at least stop bleeding jobs to south of the border, and reduce the inequality that causes the illegal immigration scare.  This is just a band-aid though, it will curb our economy just a bit until the corporations pick up and re-locate to Asian markets.  It will help for about 2 years or so.
Re-negotiate or kill it all together. You won't get the other countries back to the table unless they feel that they have a real reason to renegotiate. The current agreement is a win win for them.
2)  Stop the corporate welfare!  No more multi-billion dollar tax-payer bail-outs to irresponsible investment firms or poorly managed vital industries.  The US is the only country that gives away tax money like that.  If you absolutely need to bail out a company with tax-payer money, get something in return, like how France, Germany, Russia, and Britain does things...the Fed should put some major strings attached (like stock  ownership).  If you think an industry is vital enough to throw money at it, nationalize part of it so the taxpayer gets something in return.
I agree, the bailouts need to stop. Allowing business to fail will be regulation all in itself. You don't need a huge expansion of government to make decisions and tell business how to become profitable. The federal government would be the last place to get this advice/direction. It's the irresponsible telling the sometimes irresponsible what to do. Our government can not force corporate responsibility. I'd be content if they just let they just let the predators fail. 

3) Stop the outsourcing of federal jobs.  Putting government functions (especially military support and intelligence services) in the hands of for-profit private contracting companies makes them very much LESS efficient, susceptible to political agendas, and prone to error, corruption, and inaccuracy.
Agree.

4) OVERSIGHT.  Make everyone who receives federal funds scared shitless of corruption.  Tax money comes out of people's pockets, make them realize that its not free or bottomless.  No more "no-bid contracts" or any other related shit.  Our mid-level bureaucrats are some of the most honest in the world, relatively speaking, this is an asset that should be used for the good of the US.
Another way to make them realize that it is not free or bottomless is to stop giving them handouts without end. I think one of the worst things you can do for the poor is supply them with an endless flow of unchallenged cash. It strips them of their motivation to achieve financial independence.
" When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic [United States]."-Ben Franklin

5) Shift Military Socialism to Public Works Socialism.  If we're going to prop up 12% of our economy on tax-payer funds (we already are under de facto socialism), then stop paying for crap that hurts us world-wide.  Do something useful with the money.  $2 Trillion on the Iraq War, down the garbage can.  Thats a lot of schools, hospitals, free health care, free education, green industry conversion, massive scientific research projects, etc, that are now denied to future generations.  Stop bleeding money.  American taxes should be invested in America...or do we think the Middle East or China are going to do us a big favor and prop us up when we fall or we have a little human rights issue?
I agree with a lot of this.

If I had to pick one I would trust to at least start us on the right track, right now its Obama.  As for myself, screw hording food and water.  I'll just stick it out in the boom towns that are Eastern Europe right now.  I make almost $80,000/year and pay $500 income tax/year.  There are no illusions about what the government does for its people here, which is jack shit.  Somehow, society still functions.
Perhaps because many of my "bunch of crap" ideas jibe with yours that is why I have been supporting Obama for months now as well. We might differ with things like Carter being completely inept or what Reagan did, but we seem to agree (mostly) on the direction we need to take to regain our financial strength.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that the harsher we are with regulations/taxes on corporation the more likely they are to shift their operations overseas. There are no rules for making big business stay and operate in the United States. If we keep making it tougher for them to operate here the trend of outsourcing will just continue.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
eaglecorps
shotguns
+23|6670|TEXAS

ATG wrote:

eaglecorps wrote:

Save us McCain! Save us!
Fixed.
I ment what I said ATG. DON'T break what I made.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Kmarion wrote:

One thing we need to keep in mind is that the harsher we are with regulations/taxes on corporation the more likely they are to shift their operations overseas. There are no rules for making big business stay and operate in the United States. If we keep making it tougher for them to operate here the trend of outsourcing will just continue.
I also agree with much of Gorilla's post. One position that Obama has actually provided some level of detail on is his plan to prevent jobs from being outsourced--using tax credits as a tool to entice businesses to keep their operations (and the associated jobs) in the States. Using them for that purpose rather than keeping failing businesses afloat (Bear Stearns) seems to me to be a legitimate function of Federal government.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7042|do not disturb

FEOS wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Sky falling much?

Recession? Yes

Severe recession? No

Depression? Of course not

Complete breakdown of society? Are you on crack?


You have yet to see any good evidence supporting irrational paranoia, but you don't let that stop you. Why the double standard?
Double standard? I'm no expert but at least I provide some evidence supporting my view. Where is yours FEOS?
How about every financial analyst that DOESN'T subscribe to your belief in a deep depression and complete breakdown of society as we know it?

I'll go with that.
I didn't say there would be a complete breakdown in society, but I don't doubt the possibility of some road warrior scenario. With the amount of derivatives out there, who the hell knows.

But I guess I can play your game too. Your wrong, because I said so.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Phrozenbot wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:


Double standard? I'm no expert but at least I provide some evidence supporting my view. Where is yours FEOS?
How about every financial analyst that DOESN'T subscribe to your belief in a deep depression and complete breakdown of society as we know it?

I'll go with that.
I didn't say there would be a complete breakdown in society, but I don't doubt the possibility of some road warrior scenario. With the amount of derivatives out there, who the hell knows.

But I guess I can play your game too. Your wrong, because I said so.
I didn't say you're wrong because I said so. I said I disagreed with your "the sky is falling" approach to the economy.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7042|do not disturb

You were basically saying it came down to attitude, not validity, because apparently the bears don't have any and it's all blind pessimism. Yea, we are hearing talk about recession, but I'm hearing talk Rome is burning, I can understand. But maybe it really comes down to the Emperor has no clothes?

You are free to disagree, but I find your argument very weak if you are trying to debate me.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6838|'Murka

Not trying to debate you on this. What source can be found to say "there will not be society-ending depression and we should not hoard food and ammo"? There's not, so I can't provide a source for a counterargument. Pretty convenient for you.

There are, however, literally hundreds of articles about the various indicators not being as bad as some would like to think or that even if they are bad, the worst is nearly over. So you take your five or six guys who are preaching doom and gloom...I'll go with the bulk of reporting saying it's bad, but not as bad as all that.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
youve got job security

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