GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

So you'd prefer Iran rather than the US influence the direction of Iraq?
We had our chance to influence Iran and blew it, we had our chance to influence Iraq and blew it, same with Palestinian states...Saudi Arabia treats us like clowns.  The only major player we're tenuously holding on to is Pakistan, but that's getting a bit far from the region.

We have no lasting influence, and we won't for a while.  Our credibility as "problem solvers" in the ME is shot to hell.  A step toward regaining that is to pull out.  It won't be near the hysterical blood bath that's predicted from the neo-con think tanks and talking point makers.
you forget about egypt? 

also, the sauds wouldnt be in power if it wasnt for American dollars and investment.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California
Dick Cheney doesn't care about the lost American lives apparently.  So no, 4000 must not be important or a big deal...
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/19/cheney-poll-iraq/

Sure we got to war by having 3k of our people needlessly and wrongly slaughtered...and sure Osama bin Laden and the rest of his cabal are still reaping returns for their glorious attack on us as they have added 4000 more dead to their toll while they remain uncaptured and mocking our efforts...and sure we've created a corrupt, soon-to-be sharia law living country like the soviets created out of Afghanistan after they were repelled, and after we're repelled from Iraq...and sure we currently have a perfect training ground (much better than those lousy secret al quaeda training camps used before) where jihadists can train on real americans who are putting them through their refining fire to make them truly formidable foes..i mean terrorists should the fight come to our soil. 

But in the end, the Dick says things are sweet!  Phenomenal!  Secure!  Democratic!  Must be true..like everything else he's said.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7048|London, England
Considering the U.S lost almost 60,000 people in Vietnam, and then soldiers came back only to be mistreated. Times have been much, much worse for the United States, imo.

Not trying to sound insensitive, but when you look at what's going on and how long you've been there. The casualties are so much lower than previous conflicts

Even the UK, we lost more in the Falklands than Afghanistan and Iraq combined. How exactly is it that people come to the conclusion that we're losing I dunno

Last edited by Mek-Izzle (2008-03-24 12:47:42)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7058|949

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

We have no lasting influence, and we won't for a while.  Our credibility as "problem solvers" in the ME is shot to hell.  A step toward regaining that is to pull out.  It won't be near the hysterical blood bath that's predicted from the neo-con think tanks and talking point makers.
In my opinion,  our credibility as far "helpers" or whatever you want to call it, would be regained by not pulling out, but supporting REAL dialogue and measurable goals to withdraw while simultaneously fostering public and international support for a democratic Iraqi regime.  Put the future direction of Iraq into the Iraqi people's hands, not other foreign interests.

Simply pulling out wouldn't be a good solution (for the region, Iraqi citizens, and U.S. Interest) nor really ethical (IMO). 
Their infrastructure is still largely decimated - and I think it is up to us (the Coalition) to rebuild their industrial and economic base.  There are still armed factions that will vie for some control - we need to allow them the ability to gain control democratically, and deny them the ability to gain control with military force.  The Iraqi people are largely absent in many aspects of the rebuilding process - we need to directly tie the future of Iraq to the Iraqi people (something simply leaving could or could not accomplish).
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
you call losing firefights and getting killed good training for terrorists?
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

you call losing firefights and getting killed good training for terrorists?
No, those guys are dead.  The guys who win or survive firefights, who have watched you, learned from you, adapted to you, THOSE are the ones trained who are formidable opponents...who we would not want in US Cities sniping and bombing people.

And yes, many tens of thousands of iraqis/foreigners have been killed.  It would be foolish to think they're not getting up to speed on the most advanced combat tactics employed our fighting forces.  Their IEDs alone have improved despite our best efforts..whatever those efforts are.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
for every IED that you hear about killing our troops, there are dozens that are found and arent reported about.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

for every IED that you hear about killing our troops, there are dozens that are found and arent reported about.
Question for you.  I've long wanted to ask this of someone who knows, but forgot or whatever.  Would jamming equipment be a way to avoid IED detonation while driving along the highway?

You see, I'm under the impression that most roadside bombs are detonated remotely...a cell phone call, that is.  Why then would they not employ convoy head vehicles, or individual vehicles with a jammer...something that gives them a good quarter mile radius?  If there is such a thing, is there a way to focus it's frequency in a direction or limit frequencies that could still operate (cell phones being 800/900mhz...and military usually uses HF and VHF well below the cell UHF ranges)?

Just curious.  I've long wanted to buy a jammer to conceal in my car so i could disconnect bad drivers yapping on their cell phones.  Sure it's illegal, but daaaaamn!  I'd be doing a service to the world.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
yes, theyve been around for a while.  they have their advantages and drawbacks.  but, even though remote detonated IEDs are usually the ones that you hear about, command detonated is still pretty common.  just puts the detonator at more of a risk of getting killed or captured.  there are also other ways of detonating IEDs
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California
I'm guessing pressure switches are the worst/most effective.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
suicide bombers are the most effective
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6873|Chicago, IL
Why does the media stand at their metaphorical chalkboard counting off the number of bodies?

If they had kept count during WWII, would the war have been so popular?  The media just loves to get as many gruesome statistics as they can to plaster all over the TV and sell a few more commercials, we need to remember these people as soldiers, not a a number in the history books.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California

S.Lythberg wrote:

Why does the media stand at their metaphorical chalkboard counting off the number of bodies?

If they had kept count during WWII, would the war have been so popular?  The media just loves to get as many gruesome statistics as they can to plaster all over the TV and sell a few more commercials, we need to remember these people as soldiers, not a a number in the history books.
Have you seen the propaganda we had in WWII times?  watch some old movies.  I have an old donald duck video cassette my kids watch, and I remember some of the cartoons I watched in the 70's...they had some serious propaganda then (they do now, it's just better concealed and less blatant).

And I think it's important to list EVERY dead American who fights.  what better way to understand war, the sacrifice, and to honor those lost.  I used to browse the list of the dead and read each name, look at their face, see where they were from, what unit they were in, and how they died...then that list got past 2000 and I couldn't handle it anymore.  It was important for ME to know who each and every one of those men and women were.  I imagined their lives without war, at home, posting on message boards, playing with their kids, working as cops or having their own home based business.  I imagined them as people who are my neighbors, who may not agree with me, but took a job that was meant to ultimately help insure my safety.  Just because this war is a waste of lives on both sides with no end or no good outcome possible, and even though I don't believe those Americans who are dieing are doing so to secure my freedom, they're still giving the full sacrifice for me and my country..which is why I hate Bush and Cheney so much...i ONLY blame them for the deaths.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6873|Chicago, IL

IRONCHEF wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Why does the media stand at their metaphorical chalkboard counting off the number of bodies?

If they had kept count during WWII, would the war have been so popular?  The media just loves to get as many gruesome statistics as they can to plaster all over the TV and sell a few more commercials, we need to remember these people as soldiers, not a a number in the history books.
Have you seen the propaganda we had in WWII times?  watch some old movies.  I have an old donald duck video cassette my kids watch, and I remember some of the cartoons I watched in the 70's...they had some serious propaganda then (they do now, it's just better concealed and less blatant).

And I think it's important to list EVERY dead American who fights.  what better way to understand war, the sacrifice, and to honor those lost.  I used to browse the list of the dead and read each name, look at their face, see where they were from, what unit they were in, and how they died...then that list got past 2000 and I couldn't handle it anymore.  It was important for ME to know who each and every one of those men and women were.  I imagined their lives without war, at home, posting on message boards, playing with their kids, working as cops or having their own home based business.  I imagined them as people who are my neighbors, who may not agree with me, but took a job that was meant to ultimately help insure my safety.  Just because this war is a waste of lives on both sides with no end or no good outcome possible, and even though I don't believe those Americans who are dieing are doing so to secure my freedom, they're still giving the full sacrifice for me and my country..which is why I hate Bush and Cheney so much...i ONLY blame them for the deaths.
I blame fucked up in the head Iraqi idiots for the deaths, those "people" aren't worth our time.  My point is, the media only cares about the numbers, not the cause, the sacrifice, and the results, they just want a good "holy crap" headline to get your attention.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7070
I blame donald rumsfeld
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6872|The Land of Scott Walker

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

So you'd prefer Iran rather than the US influence the direction of Iraq?
We had our chance to influence Iran and blew it, we had our chance to influence Iraq and blew it, same with Palestinian states...Saudi Arabia treats us like clowns.  The only major player we're tenuously holding on to is Pakistan, but that's getting a bit far from the region.

We have no lasting influence, and we won't for a while.  Our credibility as "problem solvers" in the ME is shot to hell.  A step toward regaining that is to pull out.  It won't be near the hysterical blood bath that's predicted from the neo-con think tanks and talking point makers.
Hmmmm seems that no one can find a solution for the ME.  Redrawing boundaries has been tried once in the region by outsiders and failed miserably.  The countries in the ME themselves can't seem to sort things out either.  What to do?  Let the various factions and tribes etc duke it out?
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California

S.Lythberg wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Why does the media stand at their metaphorical chalkboard counting off the number of bodies?

If they had kept count during WWII, would the war have been so popular?  The media just loves to get as many gruesome statistics as they can to plaster all over the TV and sell a few more commercials, we need to remember these people as soldiers, not a a number in the history books.
Have you seen the propaganda we had in WWII times?  watch some old movies.  I have an old donald duck video cassette my kids watch, and I remember some of the cartoons I watched in the 70's...they had some serious propaganda then (they do now, it's just better concealed and less blatant).

And I think it's important to list EVERY dead American who fights.  what better way to understand war, the sacrifice, and to honor those lost.  I used to browse the list of the dead and read each name, look at their face, see where they were from, what unit they were in, and how they died...then that list got past 2000 and I couldn't handle it anymore.  It was important for ME to know who each and every one of those men and women were.  I imagined their lives without war, at home, posting on message boards, playing with their kids, working as cops or having their own home based business.  I imagined them as people who are my neighbors, who may not agree with me, but took a job that was meant to ultimately help insure my safety.  Just because this war is a waste of lives on both sides with no end or no good outcome possible, and even though I don't believe those Americans who are dieing are doing so to secure my freedom, they're still giving the full sacrifice for me and my country..which is why I hate Bush and Cheney so much...i ONLY blame them for the deaths.
I blame fucked up in the head Iraqi idiots for the deaths, those "people" aren't worth our time.  My point is, the media only cares about the numbers, not the cause, the sacrifice, and the results, they just want a good "holy crap" headline to get your attention.
You blame iraqi's?  So if some foreign power, say China, invaded, occupied, and destroyed most aspects of our country just to change out our leader's regime, you wouldn't rise up and pop some chinamen?  You wouldn't do as our forefathers did to repel the English?  Negro please.

And no, I'm not talking about terr'ists.  I'm talking about innocent Iraqi "human beings" just like you and me, but born through no fault of their own in another country on the other side of the world.  It's their fault?  Not Bush's fault for putting our fighting men and women in harm's way on his whims?  or do you believe the Dick and think 9/11 was the work of Saddam..that Osama and Saddam were butt buddies and not enemies?

4000 service men and countless hundreds of thousands ME people are dead for one reason...someone put them in the octagon that is Iraq.  /debate.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6873|Chicago, IL

IRONCHEF wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:


Have you seen the propaganda we had in WWII times?  watch some old movies.  I have an old donald duck video cassette my kids watch, and I remember some of the cartoons I watched in the 70's...they had some serious propaganda then (they do now, it's just better concealed and less blatant).

And I think it's important to list EVERY dead American who fights.  what better way to understand war, the sacrifice, and to honor those lost.  I used to browse the list of the dead and read each name, look at their face, see where they were from, what unit they were in, and how they died...then that list got past 2000 and I couldn't handle it anymore.  It was important for ME to know who each and every one of those men and women were.  I imagined their lives without war, at home, posting on message boards, playing with their kids, working as cops or having their own home based business.  I imagined them as people who are my neighbors, who may not agree with me, but took a job that was meant to ultimately help insure my safety.  Just because this war is a waste of lives on both sides with no end or no good outcome possible, and even though I don't believe those Americans who are dieing are doing so to secure my freedom, they're still giving the full sacrifice for me and my country..which is why I hate Bush and Cheney so much...i ONLY blame them for the deaths.
I blame fucked up in the head Iraqi idiots for the deaths, those "people" aren't worth our time.  My point is, the media only cares about the numbers, not the cause, the sacrifice, and the results, they just want a good "holy crap" headline to get your attention.
You blame iraqi's?  So if some foreign power, say China, invaded, occupied, and destroyed most aspects of our country just to change out our leader's regime, you wouldn't rise up and pop some chinamen?  You wouldn't do as our forefathers did to repel the English?  Negro please.

And no, I'm not talking about terr'ists.  I'm talking about innocent Iraqi "human beings" just like you and me, but born through no fault of their own in another country on the other side of the world.  It's their fault?  Not Bush's fault for putting our fighting men and women in harm's way on his whims?  or do you believe the Dick and think 9/11 was the work of Saddam..that Osama and Saddam were butt buddies and not enemies?

4000 service men and countless hundreds of thousands ME people are dead for one reason...someone put them in the octagon that is Iraq.  /debate.
I'm not saying we should have invaded Iraq, but they know full well that the fastest way to remove the American forces would be to stop killing eachother, but they have proven themselves to be incompetent in all facets of civilized life.  I'm all for leaving and letting Iran tear them to pieces, as apparently they can only behave when threatened with brutal death.

The one guestion I have for you is why Bush and Cheney?  There are 100 senators and 435(ish) representatives who approved the war, where's your hatred for them?  What about Canada?  Japan? The UK?  They were right there with us, where's your contempt for them?
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California

S.Lythberg wrote:

I'm not saying we should have invaded Iraq, but they know full well that the fastest way to remove the American forces would be to stop killing eachother, but they have proven themselves to be incompetent in all facets of civilized life.  I'm all for leaving and letting Iran tear them to pieces, as apparently they can only behave when threatened with brutal death.

The one guestion I have for you is why Bush and Cheney?  There are 100 senators and 435(ish) representatives who approved the war, where's your hatred for them?  What about Canada?  Japan? The UK?  They were right there with us, where's your contempt for them?
Amazing.  So it IS the Iraqi's fault because they're so uncivilized, incompetent, and they've proven they don't want to stop killing each other?  This is very "simple" sounding, and very baseless.  You're lumping ALL the fighting parties into one big "Iraqi people" group and saying their irresponsible, they can't be civilized, and that they deserve to be destroyed by Iran?  They were fine before we came and destroyed EVERY FACET of their lives.  Still, after $16billion given to KBR, they don't have electricity for more than a few hours in the day on average...nevermind...doesn't matter because it's their fault.  Also, I WANT Iran to help them stabilize because they will.  Sure they'll probably move to a Sharia law system, maybe not.  Maybe the Sunni's won't get taken out of the country.  That's the point, we don't know..and guessing is not worth the lives.

Bush and Cheney?  Who sent our fighting men and women there?  They did, them and their rubber stamp republican, and duped dem congress.  It's not a partisan reason why, it's an ideological reason why, and I don't hate the representatives who realized the mistake. 

Canada, Japan, UK, Poland, Australia?  They all jumped on the band wagon at the invite and duping of Bush and Cheney.  I actually read the "dossier on saddam hussein" (a 200+ page PDF that was floating around several years ago) and saw the falsified intel (from Chalabi as induced by Bush/Cheney) in it that Tony Blair signed off on...point being, it wasn't the UK, Poland, Australian leader's idea to invade Iraq to free those people from Saddam Hussein or to  prevent Condi's mushroom cloud from happening..it was us..our "appointed" leaders.

I'm currently mad now at this democratic majority congress for not doing what they were voted into power to do....hence their 11% approval rating.

But those responsible for the deaths in Iraq...BUSH/CHENEY alone.
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6388|Washington DC
This is 4000, each one was a real person, someone who meant something to another person.

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S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6873|Chicago, IL

IRONCHEF wrote:

Amazing.  So it IS the Iraqi's fault because they're so uncivilized, incompetent, and they've proven they don't want to stop killing each other?  This is very "simple" sounding, and very baseless.  You're lumping ALL the fighting parties into one big "Iraqi people" group and saying their irresponsible, they can't be civilized, and that they deserve to be destroyed by Iran?  They were fine before we came and destroyed EVERY FACET of their lives.  Still, after $16billion given to KBR, they don't have electricity for more than a few hours in the day on average...nevermind...doesn't matter because it's their fault.  Also, I WANT Iran to help them stabilize because they will.  Sure they'll probably move to a Sharia law system, maybe not.  Maybe the Sunni's won't get taken out of the country.  That's the point, we don't know..and guessing is not worth the lives.

Bush and Cheney?  Who sent our fighting men and women there?  They did, them and their rubber stamp republican, and duped dem congress.  It's not a partisan reason why, it's an ideological reason why, and I don't hate the representatives who realized the mistake. 

Canada, Japan, UK, Poland, Australia?  They all jumped on the band wagon at the invite and duping of Bush and Cheney.  I actually read the "dossier on saddam hussein" (a 200+ page PDF that was floating around several years ago) and saw the falsified intel (from Chalabi as induced by Bush/Cheney) in it that Tony Blair signed off on...point being, it wasn't the UK, Poland, Australian leader's idea to invade Iraq to free those people from Saddam Hussein or to  prevent Condi's mushroom cloud from happening..it was us..our "appointed" leaders.

I'm currently mad now at this democratic majority congress for not doing what they were voted into power to do....hence their 11% approval rating.

But those responsible for the deaths in Iraq...BUSH/CHENEY alone.
Bad intel is not the same as falsified intel.  Bush had neither the means nor the motivation to prepare a false report, he received intel stating that Saddam had WMD's, and, based on this and on Saddam's previous record, tried to make a cause for an invasion.  The intel was bad, the war was horribly mis-managed, and the Iraqi's have shown no desire to fix their own nation, you cannot pin the blame solely on any one person or group (although politicians love the blame game).

As for out-smarting the entire world, you give Bush too much credit, and foreign leaders too little.  They all received the reports, and they all decided on their own that the evidence presented was enough to justify an invasion.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6917|Northern California
There are many who dispute you.  Bush truly did fabricate things.  It's in the downing street memo, it's in testimony of former white house people, it's quite common knowledge that he fabricated.  Unless you've ONLY been watching Fox noise, then you should know this by now.  Chalabi was their main "source" of fabricated intel and Bush definitely knew it and used it since he couldn't get real intel (or real "bad" intel).
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7007|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Stingray24 wrote:

So you'd prefer Iran rather than the US influence the direction of Iraq?
a.  That's an amazing jump in logic.

b.  The only reason Iran would ever have any influence in Iraq is if some dumb fuck upset the established equilibrium in the region.  And by upset I mean remove a crazy dictator who has the brutal means and willpower to keep Iran at bay. -As long as this doesn't happen, we'll be ok.  right?
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6341|Glendale, CA
Fuck Bush.  Fuck everyone who voted for him.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

So you'd prefer Iran rather than the US influence the direction of Iraq?
You say that like it isn't already true.

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