Pages: 1

 

2008-04-04 03:10:40
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6762|Oregon
Oftentimes, when asked about religion, we think of 3 general possibilities.

First, there is the possibility that one is a Theist. They believe in the existence of one or more Supreme Beings.

There is also the Atheist. Atheists do not believe in the existence of a god.

Third, is Agnostic. One who is commonly defined as "Agnostic" is someone who "doesn't know" or "is looking." They don't know where they stand.

However, BF2s, as I learned very recently, this is a very incorrect definition of Agnostic.


According to Man's Best Friend (dictionary.com), an "agnostic" is "a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience."
Simplified, an agnostic believes that the nature of existence is fundamentally unknowable.

Someone who is gnostic would believe that the "ultimate truth" is fundamentally knowable... either that or they already know the "ultimate truth."


My point is... rather than being Atheist, Agnostic or Theist, people are either Atheist, Theist or "I actually don't know," and can also be Agnostic or Gnostic in addition to that.


I, for one, am Atheist and Agnostic. I don't believe in a higher being, and also believe that there are some things about the universe that are fundamentally unknowable.


I thought I'd make this post to just kinda let people know the real definition of an often misused term. I make no claims to intellectual superiority here because I myself was only told this within the last couple weeks... I just thought it was very, very interesting.
2008-04-04 03:36:03
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6954|Portland, OR USA
What do you get when you cross an agnostic with a dyslexic with an insomniac?

Someone who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

That being said, spot on dj.  Most people on this forum are ignorant to such things.  Similarly to your spiritual/religious terms, ignorant is also someting to which most people are ignorant.
2008-04-04 04:35:38
globefish23
sophisticated slacker
+334|6750|Graz, Austria
There also is a difference between "hard" agnosticism and "weak" agnosticism.
IIRC, the hardcore agnostic thinks that the knowledge is never knowable, while the weak one thinks that it is just not yet knowable.

I would define myself as a weak agnostic, with the addition of being an IDGAF: "I don't give a fuck" if someday we would be able to know the truth.

(I believe in my BF2 stats and that they someday will give me illumination.)
2008-04-04 07:02:34
Christbane
Member
+51|6661
I used to say I was agnostic.   now I just say I really dont care if there is or isnt a god.  I live my life how I feel is right and try to do no harm to others who dont ask for it.  I wont mess with your religion if you dont mess with my non belief.

like globefish23 im in the church of  IDGAF
2008-04-04 07:20:54
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7192|Cambridge (UK)
I consider myself to be a skeptical gnostic atheist.
2008-04-04 07:23:17
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7192|Cambridge (UK)

PuckMercury wrote:

What do you get when you cross an agnostic with a dyslexic with an insomniac?

Someone who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

That being said, spot on dj.  Most people on this forum are ignorant to such things.  Similarly to your spiritual/religious terms, ignorant is also someting to which most people are ignorant.
Not to mention grammar and spelling.
2008-04-04 07:29:18
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6717|Éire

PuckMercury wrote:

What do you get when you cross an agnostic with a dyslexic with an insomniac?

Someone who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

That being said, spot on dj.  Most people on this forum are ignorant to such things.  Similarly to your spiritual/religious terms, ignorant is also someting to which most people are ignorant.
Did you hear about the dyslexic Devil worshipper?

He sold his soul to Santa.
2008-04-04 07:30:25
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6954|Portland, OR USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

What do you get when you cross an agnostic with a dyslexic with an insomniac?

Someone who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

That being said, spot on dj.  Most people on this forum are ignorant to such things.  Similarly to your spiritual/religious terms, ignorant is also someting to which most people are ignorant.
Not to mention grammar and spelling.
Did I mess something up?  Ah hell - "someting".  +1 for correcting me.  I loathe poor grammar and consistently bad spelling.
2008-04-04 07:48:25
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
Unknowable is how I would define God.
We can attempt to know him, but we will never know if there is a him until we die.
2008-04-04 07:50:58
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6976|UK

Sooooo someone who is on the fence is defined as what?

Martyn
2008-04-04 07:59:32
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7192|Cambridge (UK)

PuckMercury wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

What do you get when you cross an agnostic with a dyslexic with an insomniac?

Someone who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

That being said, spot on dj.  Most people on this forum are ignorant to such things.  Similarly to your spiritual/religious terms, ignorant is also someting to which most people are ignorant.
Not to mention grammar and spelling.
Did I mess something up?  Ah hell - "someting".  +1 for correcting me.  I loathe poor grammar and consistently bad spelling.
Liar. I have no karma from you.

And it should also be "ignorance is also something to which most people are ignorant".
2008-04-04 08:03:38
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6954|Portland, OR USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Liar. I have no karma from you.

And it should also be "ignorance is also something to which most people are ignorant".
I mistakenly gave karma to another poster.  My apologies.

As for "ignorance" I would agree if I was referencing the state of being ignorant, but I was referring to that specific term.  I believe given that particular nuance, the statement stands as is.  I'll give you that I probably should have put it in quotes to denote such a nuance.

Bell wrote:

Sooooo someone who is on the fence is defined as what?

Martyn
ipso facto, that makes you agnostic.  If you aren't sure, then you wonder.  If you wonder, then you're agnostic.

Last edited by PuckMercury (2008-04-04 08:04:50)

2008-04-04 11:08:55
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6762|Oregon

Bell wrote:

Sooooo someone who is on the fence is defined as what?

Martyn
I'm not actually sure. Maybe there's a real term for it, but according to the person who defined these words for me, one either does or does not believe in a god. If you're on the fence, you don't have complete faith in a god meaning you're an atheist. But this, in my opinion, is complete bullshit. There needs to be a term for someone who is undecided, because we all know that it's a completely legitimate place to be.

I, personally, am never gonna correct anyone who says "agnostic" in reference to being undecided about their beliefs, because that's common dialect.
2008-04-04 12:11:15
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6557|North Tonawanda, NY

PuckMercury wrote:

Bell wrote:

Sooooo someone who is on the fence is defined as what?

Martyn
ipso facto, that makes you agnostic.  If you aren't sure, then you wonder.  If you wonder, then you're agnostic.
Wait a second... you agreed with the OP, which specifically refutes that.  Personally, I disagree with the OP.  Agnostic has a broad definition.

Wikipedia wrote:

  • Strong agnosticism—the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of an omnipotent God and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience.
  • Mild agnosticism—the view that the existence or nonexistence of God or gods is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if more evidence is available.
  • Apathetic agnosticism—the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, but since any God or gods that may exist appear unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic anyway.
  • Agnostic theism—the view of those who do not claim to know existence of God or gods, but still believe in such an existence.
  • Agnostic atheism—the view of those who do not know of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, and do not believe in them. "[6]
I would say that 'not knowing' or 'is looking' if there is a god would clearly fall under agnostic.  If you are looking, you don't know.  That is agnostic.
2008-04-04 12:17:20
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6954|Portland, OR USA
I didn't intend to explicitly agree with the content so much as the spirit.  I'm just not on my game today.  I think I'll bow out and go back to my paper writing.  +1 to you, Toenails.
2008-04-04 12:48:51
topal63
. . .
+533|7145

SenorToenails wrote:

PuckMercury wrote:

Bell wrote:

Sooooo someone who is on the fence is defined as what?

Martyn
ipso facto, that makes you agnostic.  If you aren't sure, then you wonder.  If you wonder, then you're agnostic.
Wait a second... you agreed with the OP, which specifically refutes that.  Personally, I disagree with the OP.  Agnostic has a broad definition.

Wikipedia wrote:

  • Strong agnosticism—the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of an omnipotent God and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience.
  • Mild agnosticism—the view that the existence or nonexistence of God or gods is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if more evidence is available.
  • Apathetic agnosticism—the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, but since any God or gods that may exist appear unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic anyway.
  • Agnostic theism—the view of those who do not claim to know existence of God or gods, but still believe in such an existence.
  • Agnostic atheism—the view of those who do not know of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, and do not believe in them. "[6]
I would say that 'not knowing' or 'is looking' if there is a god would clearly fall under agnostic.  If you are looking, you don't know.  That is agnostic.
Agree,

Furthermore words are simply placeholders; labels; for concepts and acquire meaning over time; change meaning over time. Dependent upon use. And, shades of meaning can be bent; altered; extended; based upon context, intended use or intended meaning.

Personally, I would not have any difficulty expressing myself if: theos, gnosis and their antithesis did not exist as words; labels; placeholders - because the concepts they indicate; infer; connote; would still exist (in my mind). And any clarification of use, when bending the shade of meaning; known shades of meaning based upon context-use, as a need, would still exist as well.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-04-04 13:05:28)

 

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