have you read the turner diaries?
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-04-05 20:51:06)
Sorry, I ain't taking the bait.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
have you read the turner diaries?
Have you read the testimony of the ATF and FBI agents in open court?
You going to defend that shit?
You better do some research first.
Last edited by ATG (2008-04-05 20:55:42)
so you obviously know what motivated mcveigh outside of waco. you find that acceptable I guess.
If the fact that the government has killed civilians is grounds for a revolution, then the Vietnam War should have been the inspiration for rebellion.ATG wrote:
I have always been honest here about my feelings.
/costs.
children MURDERED at Waco by federal agents.
http://www.mypersonalstory.net/kids.jpg
Seems to me, no matter how heinous McVeighs act was, and it was, the government still killed more children.
but, he didn't wear a badge, so it was automatically mindless evil?
now I know how dictators are selected.
We killed a lot more than 300 innocent people in that war.
I do not support racist groups, or the notion of racial supremacy of any kind.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
so you obviously know what motivated mcveigh outside of waco. you find that acceptable I guess.
The residents of Elohim City were skin head assholes.
What does that have to do with excusing Waco?
What, exactly did the courts do to rectify the obvious injustice?
What do you expect the public to do in response to such acts by law enforcement?
Hard truths make for unpopular people.
Oh well.
They were not from Texas.greenrockdude wrote:
If the fact that the government has killed civilians is grounds for a revolution, then the Vietnam War should have been the inspiration for rebellion.
We killed a lot more than 300 innocent people in that war.
Last edited by ATG (2008-04-05 21:01:08)
but you call mcveigh a patriotATG wrote:
I do not support racist groups, or the notion of racial supremacy of any kind.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
so you obviously know what motivated mcveigh outside of waco. you find that acceptable I guess.
sorry ATG, two wrongs do not make a right. that way of thinking is no different than crashing planes into buildings or sending pregnant women strapped with explosives to supermarkets.
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-04-05 21:09:55)
K fine.
What's your solution?
Life in prison for the survivors?
Vote them out of office, the killer of the children, I mean.
Obama? McCain? Clinton?
For real?
What's your solution?
Life in prison for the survivors?
Vote them out of office, the killer of the children, I mean.
Obama? McCain? Clinton?
For real?
...but they weren't any less innocent as a result of that...ATG wrote:
They were not from Texas.greenrockdude wrote:
If the fact that the government has killed civilians is grounds for a revolution, then the Vietnam War should have been the inspiration for rebellion.
We killed a lot more than 300 innocent people in that war.
everything really needs a solution, dont it?
Sorry man, I ain't touching this, I've pissed enough off tonight.Turquoise wrote:
...but they weren't any less innocent as a result of that...ATG wrote:
They were not from Texas.greenrockdude wrote:
If the fact that the government has killed civilians is grounds for a revolution, then the Vietnam War should have been the inspiration for rebellion.
We killed a lot more than 300 innocent people in that war.
Just want to clarify; you are comparing the Vietcong to the Branch Davidians?
might as well be when you call mcveigh a god damn patriot.
If you want to be a true freedom fighter, target politicians and military leaders only. Any violent act that kills innocent civilians invalidates the movement and message.ATG wrote:
K fine.
What's your solution?
Life in prison for the survivors?
Vote them out of office, the killer of the children, I mean.
Obama? McCain? Clinton?
For real?
...I think I hear the black helicopters now.... j/k
I'm comparing the innocent people of Vietnam that were used as collateral damage against the Vietcong to the innocent people in that compound.ATG wrote:
Sorry man, I ain't touching this, I've pissed enough off tonight.Turquoise wrote:
...but they weren't any less innocent as a result of that...ATG wrote:
They were not from Texas.
Just want to clarify; you are comparing the Vietcong to the Branch Davidians?
Im sure he killed plenty of veterans in that federal building too.
(Insert perspective)There is nothing so dangerous as a man who feels he has nothing left to lose.
Better the rule of One, whom all obey, than to let clamorous demagogues betray our freedom with the kiss of anarchy.
We are nowhere near justification of nationwide civil revolt. We've become experts in taking things for granted.
Brb.. I'm going to put my headband on
Xbone Stormsurgezz
If civilians are feeding the enemy, they are the enemy too.Turquoise wrote:
I'm comparing the innocent people of Vietnam that were used as collateral damage against the Vietcong to the innocent people in that compound.ATG wrote:
Sorry man, I ain't touching this, I've pissed enough off tonight.Turquoise wrote:
...but they weren't any less innocent as a result of that...
Just want to clarify; you are comparing the Vietcong to the Branch Davidians?
War is hell.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
Im sure he killed plenty of veterans in that federal building too.
I don't admire what he did, I recognize the need for it in a system where the government can stare at the camera and lie about the murder of over one hundred people when the evidence was clear that there was more going on.
If the courts fail to do the job of protecting citizens from criminal acts by sworn law enforcement agents it falls to ordinary citizens to set things right by whatever means to ensure the continued freedoms of the population.
Why is that so hard for people to understand? This is America!
Do not tread on me. The Oath soldiers swear. All that.
When did you become an Islamist?...ATG wrote:
If civilians are feeding the enemy, they are the enemy too.Turquoise wrote:
I'm comparing the innocent people of Vietnam that were used as collateral damage against the Vietcong to the innocent people in that compound.ATG wrote:
Sorry man, I ain't touching this, I've pissed enough off tonight.
Just want to clarify; you are comparing the Vietcong to the Branch Davidians?
Again, the flaw in your thinking is the same as McVeigh's. Avenging the deaths of innocent civilians is not possible by killing other innocents in return. This is the reason why insurgents and terrorists fail. If these same extremists limited their targets to figures of authority with connections to the acts they despise, then their movements would actually be much more powerful.ATG wrote:
[I don't admire what he did, I recognize the need for it in a system where the government can stare at the camera and lie about the murder of over one hundred people when the evidence was clear that there was more going on.
If the courts fail to do the job of protecting citizens from criminal acts by sworn law enforcement agents it falls to ordinary citizens to set things right by whatever means to ensure the continued freedoms of the population.
Why is that so hard for people to understand? This is America!
Do not tread on me. The Oath soldiers swear. All that.
In effect, we can be thankful that our enemies in the Islamic World are too stupid to realize this. By the same token, however, if you were to kill innocents in your zeal for revolution, you would be just as stupid.
I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domesticATG wrote:
Do not tread on me. The Oath soldiers swear. All that.
Turquoise wrote:
When did you become an Islamist?
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2008-04-05 21:34:48)
Congrats, you've just typed the equivalent of a booger.Turquoise wrote:
When did you become an Islamist?...ATG wrote:
If civilians are feeding the enemy, they are the enemy too.Turquoise wrote:
I'm comparing the innocent people of Vietnam that were used as collateral damage against the Vietcong to the innocent people in that compound.
Okay.Turquoise wrote:
Again, the flaw in your thinking is the same as McVeigh's. Avenging the deaths of innocent civilians is not possible by killing other innocents in return. This is the reason why insurgents and terrorists fail. If these same extremists limited their targets to figures of authority with connections to the acts they despise, then their movements would actually be much more powerful.ATG wrote:
[I don't admire what he did, I recognize the need for it in a system where the government can stare at the camera and lie about the murder of over one hundred people when the evidence was clear that there was more going on.
If the courts fail to do the job of protecting citizens from criminal acts by sworn law enforcement agents it falls to ordinary citizens to set things right by whatever means to ensure the continued freedoms of the population.
Why is that so hard for people to understand? This is America!
Do not tread on me. The Oath soldiers swear. All that.
In effect, we can be thankful that our enemies in the Islamic World are too stupid to realize this. By the same token, however, if you were to kill innocents in your zeal for revolution, you would be just as stupid.
The FBI and the ATF both had offices in the Murrah building.
They had just been given a pass in court in the murder of 130 +- people, the cover up and destruction of evidence.
Should they ( the concerned Americans out for justice ) have taken a better course of action?
What prey tell should that have been?
Have you ever actually read anything about Waco?
What were you turk, like 2 when that happened?
Why don't you do some research on it before comparing me to Islamist.
There is no zeal. There is a sickening feeling of our country being ruined and a chorus of baying sheep calling for the protection of the same man who kills your fellow citizens, who has become the biggest keeper of prisoners, who makes gun sellers rich while getting foot soldiers killed for no gain to the republic.
Sad.
I was 14 when the Waco thing went down.ATG wrote:
Okay.
The FBI and the ATF both had offices in the Murrah building.
They had just been given a pass in court in the murder of 130 +- people, the cover up and destruction of evidence.
Should they ( the concerned Americans out for justice ) have taken a better course of action?
What prey tell should that have been?
Have you ever actually read anything about Waco?
What were you turk, like 2 when that happened?
Why don't you do some research on it before comparing me to Islamist.
There is no zeal. There is a sickening feeling of our country being ruined and a chorus of baying sheep calling for the protection of the same man who kills your fellow citizens, who has become the biggest keeper of prisoners, who makes gun sellers rich while getting foot soldiers killed for no gain to the republic.
Sad.
Anyway, let me approach this slightly differently... You're saying that it's ok to kill innocents if the ultimate end is good for the revolution. So, if the President decided to visit your city for some reason, and you happened to be in the crowd while he's giving a speech, it would be ok if a radical decided to set off a bomb with enough power to kill you and many others as long as the President also dies?
I just hope that you and yours are never the victims of somebody else's politically motivated message of frustration.
no different than the coward pieces of shit that kill large numbers of civilians just send a message. islamists fit that category perfectly. so do people responsible for the actions that you condone and praise.
no different than the coward pieces of shit that kill large numbers of civilians just send a message. islamists fit that category perfectly. so do people responsible for the actions that you condone and praise.
I thought about 80 people died in the whole Waco debacle. Are you referring to something else then?ATG wrote:
Okay.
The FBI and the ATF both had offices in the Murrah building.
They had just been given a pass in court in the murder of 130 +- people, the cover up and destruction of evidence.
Ive been to waco. its a shitty little town
Lemme try and explain this.Turquoise wrote:
I was 14 when the Waco thing went down.ATG wrote:
Okay.
The FBI and the ATF both had offices in the Murrah building.
They had just been given a pass in court in the murder of 130 +- people, the cover up and destruction of evidence.
Should they ( the concerned Americans out for justice ) have taken a better course of action?
What prey tell should that have been?
Have you ever actually read anything about Waco?
What were you turk, like 2 when that happened?
Why don't you do some research on it before comparing me to Islamist.
There is no zeal. There is a sickening feeling of our country being ruined and a chorus of baying sheep calling for the protection of the same man who kills your fellow citizens, who has become the biggest keeper of prisoners, who makes gun sellers rich while getting foot soldiers killed for no gain to the republic.
Sad.
Anyway, let me approach this slightly differently... You're saying that it's ok to kill innocents if the ultimate end is good for the revolution. So, if the President decided to visit your city for some reason, and you happened to be in the crowd while he's giving a speech, it would be ok if a radical decided to set off a bomb with enough power to kill you and many others as long as the President also dies?
I would never condone, support or partake in such an idea as attacking the president.
But, when you look at what happened at Waco, you see a chain of errors in both thinking and execution. You see heavy handed tactics and the deaths of over one hundred civilians, many by machine fire, tank tread disarticulation and being burned alive. You see the facts state that after a certain point, they didn't let the people come out. You see a chain of events spin out of control.
Then you see systematic destruction of evidence. You see the federal court disallow the governments own FLIR footage that was DAMING EVIDENCE. You see the decision makers promoted. The trigger pullers moving on to bigger better careers. You see what remained of many of the survivors sentences to life terms ( since over turned in court ).
If nothing else, the OCB gave pause to the guys wearing the badge.
There are consequences to criminal actions.
Timothy McVeigh never wavered. He did what he did and he explained why. He went to the death chamber like a man and accepted the results of his crimes.
That's all I'm asking of the FBI and ATF agents on the scene, their commanders and on up.
Our nation will not survive double standards; one for law enforcement and one for you. There must be accountability. In the courts or in the neighborhoods.
Died February 28, 1993
Winston Blake, 28, black, British
Peter Gent, 24, white, Australian
Peter Hipsman, 28, white, American
Perry Jones, 64, white, American
Michael Schroeder, 29, white, American
Jaydean Wendell, 34, Hawaiian, American
Died April 19, 1993
Katherine Andrade, 24, white, American
Chanel Andrade, 1, white, American
Jennifer Andrade, 19, white, American
George Bennett, 35, black, British
Susan Benta, 31, black, British
Mary Jean Borst, 49, white, American
Pablo Cohen, 38, white, Israeli
Abedowalo Davies, 30, black, British
Shari Doyle, 18, white, American
Beverly Elliot, 30, black, British
Yvette Fagan, 32, black, British
Doris Fagan, 51, black, British
Lisa Marie Farris, 24, white, American
Raymond Friesen, 76, white, Canadian
Sandra Hardial, 27, black, British
Zilla Henry, 55, black, British
Vanessa Henry, 19, black, British
Phillip Henry, 22, black, British
Paulina Henry, 24, black, British
Stephen Henry, 26, black, British
Diana Henry, 28, black, British
Novellette Hipsman, 36, black, Canadian
Floyd Houtman, 61, black, American
Sherri Jewell, 43, Asian, American
David M. Jones, 38, white, American
David Koresh, 33, white, American
Rachel Koresh, 24, white, American
Cyrus Koresh, 8, white, American
Star Koresh, 6, white, American
Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, white, American
Jeffery Little, 32, white, American
Nicole Gent Little, 24, white, Australian
and unborn child
Dayland Gent, 3, white, American
Page Gent, 1, white, American
Livingston Malcolm, 26, black, British
Diane Martin, 41, black, British
Wayne Martin, Sr., 42, black, American
Lisa Martin, 13, black, American
Sheila Martin, Jr., 15, black, American
Anita Martin, 18, black, American
Wayne Martin, Jr., 20, black, American
Julliete Martinez, 30, Mexican American
Crystal Martinez, 3, Mexican American
Isaiah Martinez, 4, Mexican American
Joseph Martinez, 8, Mexican American
Abigail Martinez, 11, Mexican American
Audrey Martinez, 13, Mexican American
John-Mark McBean, 27, black, British
Bernadette Monbelly, 31, black, British
Rosemary Morrison, 29, black, British
Melissa Morrison, 6, black, British
Sonia Murray, 29, black, American
Theresa Nobrega, 48, black, British
James Riddle, 32, white, American
Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Asian, Phillipino
Steve Schneider, 43, white, American
Judy Schneider, 41, white, American
Mayanah Schneider, 2, white, American
Clifford Sellors, 33, white, British
Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, Asian, American
Floracita Sonobe, 34, Asian, Phillipino
Gregory Summers, 28, white, American
Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, white, Australian
and unborn child
Startle Summers, 1, white, American
Lorraine Sylvia, 40, white, American
Rachel Sylvia, 12, white, American
Hollywood Sylvia, 1, white, American
Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, white, American
Serenity Jones, 4, white, American
Chica Jones, 2, white, American
Little One Jones, 2, white, American
Neal Vaega, 38, Somoan, New Zealander
Margarida Vaega, 47, Asian, New Zealander
Mark H. Wendell, 40, Asian, American
Last edited by ATG (2008-04-05 21:56:55)
Xbone Stormsurgezz