BF2S Forums Will Islam Take Over Europe?

lowing wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

lowing wrote:

Like I said, and you ignored. It is the attitude of the immigrants that count here, not yours. They feel no alliegence to Germany, if they did I assume they would become citizens, ( the majority that is)

That's the nature of immigration. I would doubt your sitting in a Tepee typing this with feathers in your hair?

Yeah, unfortunately the issue is more contemporary than playing cowboys and Indians.

But since you mentioned it, and want to use it as an example. I guess immigration can change the landscape of a continent after all. Since Indians are now on reservations and all and the Europeans took over the continent, because the Indians sat back an appeased the European settlers until it was far too late to do anything about it. Thanks for pointing that out. It helps the argument.

I

So the Indians sat back and did nothing? I suppose they lay in bed while your founding fathers turned a population of 5,000,000 native red Indians over 20 years into 250,000. I guess they were so busy appeasing the settlers they slept through the slaughter of their herds and people. They just woke up one day and discovered they were TB infected alcoholics with no land. I can do sarcasm too.
There is little comparison. Muslims are not arriving by the ship load with far advanced weapons technology, with a forced land grab policy.

Zionist Jews are arriving by the ship load with far advanced weapons technology with a forced land grab policies, but we hear no outrage from you on that policy, yet thread and post after post of paranoid 'observations' on how Islam is taking over the world. Your bias is apparent.

JahManRed wrote:

lowing wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

That's the nature of immigration. I would doubt your sitting in a Tepee typing this with feathers in your hair?

Yeah, unfortunately the issue is more contemporary than playing cowboys and Indians.

But since you mentioned it, and want to use it as an example. I guess immigration can change the landscape of a continent after all. Since Indians are now on reservations and all and the Europeans took over the continent, because the Indians sat back an appeased the European settlers until it was far too late to do anything about it. Thanks for pointing that out. It helps the argument.

I

So the Indians sat back and did nothing? I suppose they lay in bed while your founding fathers turned a population of 5,000,000 native red Indians over 20 years into 250,000. I guess they were so busy appeasing the settlers they slept through the slaughter of their herds and people. They just woke up one day and discovered they were TB infected alcoholics with no land. I can do sarcasm too.
There is little comparison. Muslims are not arriving by the ship load with far advanced weapons technology, with a forced land grab policy.

Zionist Jews are arriving by the ship load with far advanced weapons technology with a forced land grab policies, but we hear no outrage from you on that policy, yet thread and post after post of paranoid 'observations' on how Islam is taking over the world. Your bias is apparent.

Yeah, for the first coupla hundred years or so, the Indians welcomed the immigrants. It was the immigrants that took advantage of their generocity, and trust. Then we fucked them with it.


I am not talking about 1873 here, I am talking about the 1500's and such when Europe first "discovered the new world"
So yeah I stand by my post.

CC-Marley wrote:

Just look at the birth rate differences in Europe. If this keeps up I don't know how it won't happen.

lol

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

If not Islam, some other group or combination of groups will eventually dominate Europe.  Most European nations (the more prosperous nations at least) have low "native" birth rates.  They depend heavily on immigration to support their aging out populations and to keep population growth going.

Over the next century, Europe will become more and more non-European in its population, and if current trends remain constant, then North Africans, Sub-Saharan Africans, Middle Easterners, and South Asians will be the most significant ethnic groups on the continent by about 2100.

I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, but it is something to think about.  With changes in ethnicity, there often come changes in laws.

I agree to some degree. But those kind of migration movements are a natural occurence. Sure those have the potential  to change the face of the continent forever, but hey, that's life. I mean, europe today isn't what it was in 1800 either.

Those demographic changes are part of evolution, if you will. Impossible to control. As you said, if we didn't have immigration, we could not keep our economy and growth on the level that we need. And the same is true for the rest of the western world, including the US.
If birth rates are low, immigration is what keeps the economy going.

It is also to be expected that those who come to europe to work here, bring their culture with them, and have some impact on our culture, if we want it or not.

But as I said, as long as we keep our core values intact ( you know, rule of law, freedom, democracy, and all of that ) I don't think we have much to worry about. The sad part for me is that I won't be able to see how all of this plays out. I don't expect to still be alive in 2100....

If I may chime in B.Schuss,

Now that we agree that the European landscape is and will change due to ME immigration. They only question remaining is, is it a positve change or a negative change?

How can you look at the ME, and maintain that change imported from that region to Europe or the US will be anything but a negative change?

The majority of immigrants refuse to become citizens, of their new country, refuse to learn the language. If it is like the US take advantage of tax incentives and govt. breaks only to ship the money "home" instead of putting it back into our economy, and several examples have been shown in various threads where special treatment and accomdations are demanded to facilitate them to do this. Again, where is the positive?

well, I'd say it can be either. It depends what we make of it. From my point of view, a successful integration can lead to a better, more diverse society, leaving people more open-minded with regard to their fellow citizens, more open to other cultures, and more tolerant for other values.
It it would be imperative, however, that our core EU values be preserved, such as the things I already mentioned, democracy, freedom of religion and speech, liberalism, tolerance, the rule of law, etc.
Also, I would be unwilling to compromise on certain issues such as official language. I would also require possible immigrants to be able to support themselves financially. I would make it mandatory for them to get german cititzenship if they plan to stay longer, i.e. make germany their place of residence, and I would make voting mandatory.

The idea is to keep a certain "German/Western european culture" ( whatever that is ), so we have a german/western european "identity", but still allow our immigrants to keep parts of the culture they came from. Ideally, this would lead to a new "culture" comprised of the best of both worlds.

The problem we currently have is that - for the most part - we have lived side by side with the immigrants, without really getting to know them. And to be honest, most of us didn't even want to get to know them, myself included. This has lead to them forming parallel societies, and some form of self-induced alienation.

If we overcome that, I wouldn't know why someone from the middle east should not be able to be a productive member of a western society.
The demographic change is nothing we can simply ignore, or wish away. If we want to uphold our economies on the current level, we need immigration. There is no way around that.

Immigration comes at a price. I guess what you'd have to do is make sure the price ain't too high.

Braddock wrote:

Does anyone else think non-native Americans giving out about immigratiion and assimilation are a tad hypocritical? African Americans that are descended from slaves have a right to complain about the nature of the country because they were brought there against their will but European descendant Americans are the product of exactly what they're complaining about now.

Back on topic...Islam will simply not take over Europe, it's impossible. Anyone who feels otherwise please explain how such a thing could happen and don't just say 'appeasement' or quote projected birth rate figures for the next few hundred years that couldn't possibly be fully relied upon.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't try to spin this topic in either direction.  Projected birth rates can be logically depended on, unless you know something the demographers don't.

I personally see only 2 reasons why Europe might see a boost in population growth over the next century:

1. A worldwide recession lowers the standard of living for most of Europe (poverty often leads to higher birth rates).

2. The growing ethnic minorities continue to reproduce as rapidly in Europe as they do in their native countries.

Even assuming that #2 happens, this still means that citizens of European ancestry will slowly be outnumbered by those of non-European ancestry.

Again, I'm not trying to say this is negative or positive, but I just don't see any reason to believe that Europeans would see an increase in birth rates anytime soon.

Turquoise wrote:

Even assuming that #2 happens, this still means that citizens of European ancestry will slowly be outnumbered by those of non-European ancestry.

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

B.Schuss wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Even assuming that #2 happens, this still means that citizens of European ancestry will slowly be outnumbered by those of non-European ancestry.

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

............unless you stop immigration to all who do not become citizens and stop bowing to special interest demands

Last edited by lowing (2008-04-10 06:10:30)

jord wrote:

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

............unless you stop immigration to all who do not become citizens

The UK alone makes an estimated 6 billion pounds from immigrants. That's over 12 billion dollars.

So what are you saying, allegiance to a country you plan on moving to and leeching off of is too much to ask? Figures

B.Schuss wrote:

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

I just want to clarify something here.  I'm not saying that you really have a choice in the matter.  Since prosperity usually encourages having smaller families and longer periods of time in life without kids (with often more of an emphasis on advancing a career than on raising kids), then it's pretty inevitable that birth rates will remain low for white Europeans.  Nonwhite Europeans will likely have smaller families with each passing generation in Europe, but first generation immigrants will slowly make up more and more of the population growth in Europe.

As you said, it's like evolution, except this is a socioeconomic evolution rather than a genetic one.

All I'm asking is that you don't interpret my response as prejudiced.  I'm simply stating things in terms of numbers.  I'm not really trying to make any value statements here other than that changes in the ethnic makeup of a population usually lead to changes in public policy.

So, in short, we basically agree.

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Even assuming that #2 happens, this still means that citizens of European ancestry will slowly be outnumbered by those of non-European ancestry.

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

............unless you stop immigration to all who do not become citizens and stop bowing to special interest demands

I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, as you know, having an US passport ( = citizenship ) doesn't suddenly make you love football, or celebrate Halloween, or enjoy other customs and traditions that "born" americans enjoy.

Cititzenship requires only a few very basic things, such as speaking the language, a job, no criminal record, following the law of the land, etc.

Everything else is voluntary, I'd say.

as far as those "special interests" that you seem to be so worried about are concerned, I'd probably be equally worried if I had the impression that our laws are changed to accomodate the needs of immigrants. But I don't see this happening.
What I see happening is immigration in general forcing us to look at our existing laws in different ways ( the "praying in school" issue being one of them ), but that is a natural occurence when a society is exposed to, or opens up to cultural influences from the outside.

Yes they will take over.
Never mind the migrants, we're paying them to sit on their butts and have huge families.

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Well, I guess that would be a natural part of evolution then, wouldn't it ? At some point, the immigrants would become naturalized europeans, just as european immigrants in the US stopped being europeans after some time, and became americans.

The question is how you define "european". To me, europe is simply an geographical area, and has nothing to do with race or religion. Just because historically, europeans have tended to be white christians doesn't mean this must always be the case.

I realize that there is also something like a "european" cultural identity, and "european" values ( at least that's what the US boys seem to think ), but cultural identities and values change over time. Who knows what europe will look like in 100 years, and which ethnicity will make up the majority of "europeans" then ? Very difficult to project, and even more difficult to regulate, if at all.
What are you going to do ? Force all the white christians to have 3+ kids, and neuter all non-white, non-christian immigrants ?

Fact of the matter is, immigrants are going to continue to come to european countries, and we'd better try our best to truely integrate them, if we want to preserve our "european" identity as it is today. time will tell if we can. Personally, I doubt it though. these kinds of processes simply cannot be controlled. they happen naturally, as part of evolution if you will.

............unless you stop immigration to all who do not become citizens and stop bowing to special interest demands

I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, as you know, having an US passport ( = citizenship ) doesn't suddenly make you love football, or celebrate Halloween, or enjoy other customs and traditions that "born" americans enjoy.

Cititzenship requires only a few very basic things, such as speaking the language, a job, no criminal record, following the law of the land, etc.

Everything else is voluntary, I'd say.

as far as those "special interests" that you seem to be so worried about are concerned, I'd probably be equally worried if I had the impression that our laws are changed to accomodate the needs of immigrants. But I don't see this happening.
What I see happening is immigration in general forcing us to look at our existing laws in different ways ( the "praying in school" issue being one of them ), but that is a natural occurence when a society is exposed to, or opens up to cultural influences from the outside.

And all of this explains why they feel they have the right to come here, not even become a citizen, and bitch about how offended they are by our way of life and how inconvienent it is to them and their religion, how?

How does this explain why the US and Europe has to be chocked with PC?

The reason we are being chocked with PC is the fact that our laws and traditions and customs, morality and fredoms are Christian based with Christian values. For religious and non-religious people to easily follow. When our  freedoms were established, they were written for white men it did not take into account the lopsided and oppressive bullshit that is Islam or the illegal immigration that is Mexico. Since our Constitution was written it has been ammended to include women and minorities, still not including the the oppressive Islam or illegal aliens. Now, however, with the influx of Islam and Mexico, our own words are being used against us, and we have no choice but to include Islam and Mexicans and their bullshit. Our society was not meant to, or evolved to accomadate such a fucked up intolerant religion or immigration in the manner of which Mexicans are conducting. But never the less, here we are trying adhere to our Constitution and honor it, while getting fucked over by those that want to come here and take advantage of the fact that we are.

A perfect example is the Statue of Liberity, It says, "Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor, Your Huddled Masses, Yearning to Breathe Free"

Well, what it meant was, anyone that wants to come to America to build a dream and a life are welcome. It really didn't mean give us your poor your tired your huddled masses yerning to leech off a society and send home anything they can get from America, yet, that is exactly what is happening and our Constitution is being argued by some cock suck ACLU lawyer that those that come here have every right to do just that, because that is how our laws are interpreted, and no one wants to say bullshit because, that is when racist, discrimination, bigot and all of the other liberal staple vocabulary is introduced.

lowing wrote:

...The reason we are being chocked with PC is the fact that our laws and traditions and customs, morality and fredoms are Christian based with Christian values. For religious and non-religious people to easily follow. When our  freedoms were established, they were written for white men it did not take into account the lopsided and oppressive bullshit that is Islam or the illegal immigration that is Mexico. Since our Constitution was written it has been ammended to include women and minorities, still not including the the oppressive Islam or illegal aliens. Now, however, with the influx of Islam and Mexico, our own words are being used against us, and we have no choice but to include Islam and Mexicans and their bullshit. Our society was not meant to, or evolved to accomadate such a fucked up intolerant religion or immigration in the manner of which Mexicans are conducting. But never the less, here we are trying adhere to our Constitution and honor it, while getting fucked over by those that want to come here and take advantage of the fact that we are..

I agree to some extent. However, and I think you realize this, that is exactly the dilemma that all open, liberal, tolerant, democratic societies face these days, be it the US or any western country in europe.
But I'd rather live in a democratic and free society and live with the downsides, than discriminate against or exclude any ethnic or religious group from the ooportunities that those societies present. Because that would be a direct violation of the principles that we hold in such high regard.

Integration is not a one-way street. Just as much as the immigrants need to do their part to integrate themselves into our society, we need to do our part making them feel at home, and welcome.