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2008-04-08 02:33:14
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yet they go crazy over another more peaceful political goal ( a cartoon) . to show Islam for what it is.
The cartoon directly affects them as it stipulates in their religion that graven images are strictly forbidden. Beslan had no impact on their lives whatsoever. A lot of them probably never even heard of Beslan. People feel strongly about their faith, irrespective of what that faith is. A small number of Christians feel strongly enough to blow up abortion clinics - you can't judge all Christians on the basis of these people though. A lot feel strongly enough to protest and picket outside abortion clinics. That probably is representative of true Christianity as abortion has been decreed as morally wrong by the Vatican. Different religions have different rules as regards what is right and what is wrong. In Islam graven images are wrong and will be protested when they occur. Looking at the stats the violence you would have us believe was rampant in the wake of the cartoons was minimal and isolated. The numbers turning out to protest were also relatively small. In total less than 20 violence-related arrests in Europe occurred for a population of 10s of millions of Muslims. Funny how the numbers scotch your arguments time and time again....

The fact is that Muslims aren't as big on freedom of speech as we are. That's a difference they will have to put up with if they wish to live in the west. On their own turf they can do whatever the fuck they want.
Did it take a muslim cleric to have the muslim community go apeshit over a cartoon? Nope They took it upon themselves to self express

There is no such self expression over anything done in the name of Islam, ONLY ABOUT Islam....See where your argument breaks down. Good, I am glad we got that cleared up.


again, the difference
2008-04-08 02:36:43
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6976|CH/BR - in UK

Turquoise wrote:

A wall of text only goes so far in defending your point.

It's quite clear that moderates and reformists don't actually represent true Islam.  Thankfully, they still are the majority of Muslims, but the danger is that, when taken more literally and more consistently, Islam truly is a weapon against non-Muslims.  This is a religion that was spread by the sword and is based on the teachings of a pedophilic warlord.
Sorry if I didn't read everything so far, I just had to quote this before I forget:

Do I need to start quoting the bible for you?

-konfusion
2008-04-08 02:48:02
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6716|Éire

David.P wrote:

Wrong. Killing kids should never be used as an excuse for your "cause" And since when are you against Russia? I thought you liked them for being able to stand up to america? Or is this like conditional depending if Islam is involved? Seriously Cam i cant believe you'd stoop so low by supporting the chechnyans(Waits for Cam to rebut this post with either a link to US/Israeli Soldiers killing children, Saying he only supported the chechnyan cause for independence not the massacre of children, Blame the russians for the casualties, Call me and anyone who disagrees with him a racist, Sick his Brigade on me to make himself look less of an idiot, Etc etc)
Supporting the idea of an independent Chechnya has nothing to do with condoning the slaughter of innocent children. I think Chechnya should have independence but I still think the Beslan terrorists are murderous scum. To be honest your post seems like a lame attempt to claim that Cam condoned the Beslan massacre...do you work for Fox News by any chance?

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

School kids were massacred Cam, and Islam did not bat an eye. A cartoon was drawn and the the entire ME caught fire
Should Islam also come out in protest when schoolkids in America gun each other down in scores? Because that's about as connected to what was going on at Beslan as Islam was. Or are you incapable of understanding that Chechnyans committed this heinous act in their struggle for independence from Russia, i.e. for a political goal?
Yet they go crazy over another more peaceful political goal ( a cartoon) . to show Islam for what it is.
Lowing, do you go apeshit and march in the street protesting when your country invades a sovereign nation or carries out a bombing mission that kills several innocent civilians?

You certainly go apeshit whenever a Muslim asks for a room to pray in.
2008-04-08 03:11:16
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

lowing wrote:

Did it take a muslim cleric to have the muslim community go apeshit over a cartoon? Nope They took it upon themselves to self express

There is no such self expression over anything done in the name of Islam, ONLY ABOUT Islam....See where your argument breaks down. Good, I am glad we got that cleared up.

again, the difference
You seem to have blinkers on to the 'Not in our name' Muslims. Why do you ignore them? Is it because it suits your argument to do so?? Ah, I see, ok then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 275772.stm

Oh I'm sorry - those sorts of things don't happen in lowingworld.... lol
2008-04-08 12:42:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Did it take a muslim cleric to have the muslim community go apeshit over a cartoon? Nope They took it upon themselves to self express

There is no such self expression over anything done in the name of Islam, ONLY ABOUT Islam....See where your argument breaks down. Good, I am glad we got that cleared up.

again, the difference
You seem to have blinkers on to the 'Not in our name' Muslims. Why do you ignore them? Is it because it suits your argument to do so?? Ah, I see, ok then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 275772.stm

Oh I'm sorry - those sorts of things don't happen in lowingworld.... lol
For this story to be credible PER CAMRONPOE standards, this had better fucking been signed by the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe. If it is not, it ain't worth a fuck. Since dwelling on the MAJORITY is your argument, ( when it suits you that is) I mean after admitting Europe has a very little Islamic presence you sure as fuck seem to want to hang your hat on everything based on them.

Nonetheless at least it is something
2008-04-08 12:45:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

Braddock wrote:

David.P wrote:

Wrong. Killing kids should never be used as an excuse for your "cause" And since when are you against Russia? I thought you liked them for being able to stand up to america? Or is this like conditional depending if Islam is involved? Seriously Cam i cant believe you'd stoop so low by supporting the chechnyans(Waits for Cam to rebut this post with either a link to US/Israeli Soldiers killing children, Saying he only supported the chechnyan cause for independence not the massacre of children, Blame the russians for the casualties, Call me and anyone who disagrees with him a racist, Sick his Brigade on me to make himself look less of an idiot, Etc etc)
Supporting the idea of an independent Chechnya has nothing to do with condoning the slaughter of innocent children. I think Chechnya should have independence but I still think the Beslan terrorists are murderous scum. To be honest your post seems like a lame attempt to claim that Cam condoned the Beslan massacre...do you work for Fox News by any chance?

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Should Islam also come out in protest when schoolkids in America gun each other down in scores? Because that's about as connected to what was going on at Beslan as Islam was. Or are you incapable of understanding that Chechnyans committed this heinous act in their struggle for independence from Russia, i.e. for a political goal?
Yet they go crazy over another more peaceful political goal ( a cartoon) . to show Islam for what it is.
Lowing, do you go apeshit and march in the street protesting when your country invades a sovereign nation or carries out a bombing mission that kills several innocent civilians?

You certainly go apeshit whenever a Muslim asks for a room to pray in.
Nope, I support the war and the kicking the ever living shit outta Saddam, since that is what was decided needed to be done, even by the liberals of our country.

As far as the killing of civilians, if our bombing missions were specifically set out to kill innocent people you bet your ass I would protest. But America spends billions on research and development to try and minimize such events during war.
2008-04-08 12:45:54
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

lowing wrote:

For this story to be credible PER CAMRONPOE standards, this had better fucking been signed by the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe. If it is not, it ain't worth a fuck. Since dwelling on the MAJORITY is your argument, ( when it suits you that is) I mean after admitting Europe has a very little Islamic presence you sure as fuck seem to want to hang your hat on everything based on them.

Nonetheless at least it is something
The proof of the majority argument is in my living and breathing my daily life in Europe, travelling widely throughout Europe and not encountering any of the sorts of minor stories you report to us with such gusto through your entrenched anti-Muslim bigotry (despite the fact that Europe is home to 10s of millions of Muslims and I live within a kilometre of the Islamic Cultural Centre here in Dublin). It's like me harping on as if school massacres happen every two weeks in the US because the US is gun-happy and intrinsically violent when quite frankly such incidents happen rarely.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-08 12:49:30)

2008-04-08 13:09:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

For this story to be credible PER CAMRONPOE standards, this had better fucking been signed by the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe. If it is not, it ain't worth a fuck. Since dwelling on the MAJORITY is your argument, ( when it suits you that is) I mean after admitting Europe has a very little Islamic presence you sure as fuck seem to want to hang your hat on everything based on them.

Nonetheless at least it is something
The proof of the majority argument is in my living and breathing my daily life in Europe, travelling widely throughout Europe and not encountering any of the sorts of minor stories you report to us with such gusto through your entrenched anti-Muslim bigotry (despite the fact that Europe is home to 10s of millions of Muslims and I live within a kilometre of the Islamic Cultural Centre here in Dublin). It's like me harping on as if school massacres happen every two weeks in the US because the US is gun-happy and intrinsically violent when quite frankly such incidents happen rarely.
I'm sorry Cam, I had know idea that you lived with the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe or the ME. I guess your opinion is valid after all. Ya see, I thought Islam was wrought with intolerance and violence and opression but I guess since you personally live near the MAJORITY of them, you would know more than the people that abandoned this religion for the very reasons that THEY have mentioned in their articles or their videos that they have recorded on the issue.

I am afraid however, that it isn't just me that sees this religion fort what it is, but the vast MAJORITY of the western world. As such I think it is a valid argument. Unless of course you are saying it is all made up.
2008-04-08 13:18:42
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

lowing wrote:

I'm sorry Cam, I had know idea that you lived with the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe or the ME. I guess your opinion is valid after all. Ya see, I thought Islam was wrought with intolerance and violence and opression but I guess since you personally live near the MAJORITY of them, you would know more than the people that abandoned this religion for the very reasons that THEY have mentioned in their articles or their videos that they have recorded on the issue.

I am afraid however, that it isn't just me that sees this religion fort what it is, but the vast MAJORITY of the western world. As such I think it is a valid argument. Unless of course you are saying it is all made up.
If the majority of Muslims were inherently violent I would be dead right now. I went to arguably one of the most violent places on earth - Palestine - sat in diners there, drank tea with shopowners there, had the craic with local PLO security forces there and took taxi journeys and hikes there. I also went to university right beside the Islamic Cultural Centre and now live within a km of it.

Why am I still alive?

Why haven't I been attacked?

Why haven't my Muslim colleagues at work turned up with giant sabres to lop off our heads?

Do 1 in 2 Muslims not want me dead?

Can you answer any of those questions?

PS Your views on the world are almost 100% diametrically opposed to those in Europe, a left wing leaning continent. The rest of the world hates America remember? One of the reasons being: people with opinions like yours.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-08 13:20:44)

2008-04-08 13:34:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I'm sorry Cam, I had know idea that you lived with the MAJORITY of the Muslims in Europe or the ME. I guess your opinion is valid after all. Ya see, I thought Islam was wrought with intolerance and violence and opression but I guess since you personally live near the MAJORITY of them, you would know more than the people that abandoned this religion for the very reasons that THEY have mentioned in their articles or their videos that they have recorded on the issue.

I am afraid however, that it isn't just me that sees this religion fort what it is, but the vast MAJORITY of the western world. As such I think it is a valid argument. Unless of course you are saying it is all made up.
If the majority of Muslims were inherently violent I would be dead right now. I went to arguably one of the most violent places on earth - Palestine - sat in diners there, drank tea with shopowners there, had the craic with local PLO security forces there and took taxi journeys and hikes there. I also went to university right beside the Islamic Cultural Centre and now live within a km of it.

Why am I still alive?

Why haven't I been attacked?

Why haven't my Muslim colleagues at work turned up with giant sabres to lop off our heads?

Do 1 in 2 Muslims not want me dead?

Can you answer any of those questions?

PS Your views on the world are almost 100% diametrically opposed to those in Europe, a left wing leaning continent. The rest of the world hates America remember? One of the reasons being: people with opinions like yours.
I dunno if Israel is as bad as you claim you should have been killed in an Israeli airstrike, yet here you are!!!..So, which argument are you gunna stick with?
2008-04-08 13:38:05
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

lowing wrote:

I dunno if Israel is as bad as you claim you should have been killed in an Israeli airstrike, yet here you are!!!..So, which argument are you gunna stick with?
Well I did encounter a detachment of the Israeli army bulldozing shut the Palestinians road to Jericho from Jerusalem so that they could no longer use it (near St. Georges monastery by the Wadi Qelt). I also witnessed more guns than I have ever seen in my life or probably ever will and had a gun pointed at me in a threatening manner at the checkpoint to Bethlehem - if I didn't respond quickly enough perhaps that soldier might have decided to gun me down, just in case (I had a bulge under my shirt from a camera strapped to my belt - see pic).

https://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2484/mepapolicezl4.jpg

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-08 13:41:48)

2008-04-08 13:44:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I dunno if Israel is as bad as you claim you should have been killed in an Israeli airstrike, yet here you are!!!..So, which argument are you gunna stick with?
Well I did encounter a detachment of the Israeli army bulldozing shut the Palestinians road to Jericho from Jerusalem so that they could no longer use it (near St. Georges monastery by the Wadi Qelt). I also witnessed more guns than I have ever seen in my life or probably ever will and had a gun pointed at me in a threatening manner at the checkpoint to Bethlehem - if I didn't respond quickly enough perhaps that soldier might have decided to gun me down, just in case (I had a bulge under my shirt from a camera strapped to my belt).
Yeah and when I was in Iraq, I had a rocket blow up the hooch 2 down from me killing a soldier and blowing me and a few of my co-workers to the ground. I was cut up pretty good from the gravel. As the siren went off we ran for the bunker and was abreast of the rocket blast ( around 25-30 ft). Later, after we emerged from the bunker to fight the fire in the hooch that was destroyed we saw where shrapnel had actually blown past us, into the hooch on the other side of us. I had minor smoke and fire extinguisher inhalation ( do treatment required, just coughed my ass off). In all 2 female soldiers and 2 civilians were killed in that attack and 7 wounded I think it was. I guess we both have "lucky to be alive" stories.

Last edited by lowing (2008-04-08 19:26:40)

2008-04-08 22:33:55
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6831|North Carolina

konfusion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

A wall of text only goes so far in defending your point.

It's quite clear that moderates and reformists don't actually represent true Islam.  Thankfully, they still are the majority of Muslims, but the danger is that, when taken more literally and more consistently, Islam truly is a weapon against non-Muslims.  This is a religion that was spread by the sword and is based on the teachings of a pedophilic warlord.
Sorry if I didn't read everything so far, I just had to quote this before I forget:

Do I need to start quoting the bible for you?

-konfusion
It's not often that I defend Christianity, but as I stated earlier, the New Testament mostly nullifies the Old Testament.  With the Quran, it's kind of the opposite...  The more violent passages typically overrule the less violent ones....
2008-04-08 23:21:17
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7100|Canberra, AUS
I'm curious to see what lowing is trying to prove by constantly refuting and rebutting the notion that the majority of the Muslim world isn't violent and/or the majority of Muslims aren't actually Islamic...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-04-09 04:24:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7077|USA

Spark wrote:

I'm curious to see what lowing is trying to prove by constantly refuting and rebutting the notion that the majority of the Muslim world isn't violent and/or the majority of Muslims aren't actually Islamic...
Ummmmmmmmm the fact that it is a violent and intolerant religion and goes against everything western.

the fact that by NOT being violent and intolerant, Muslims are not practicing what is being preached, so to speak.
2008-04-09 04:42:17
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6976|CH/BR - in UK

Turquoise wrote:

It's not often that I defend Christianity, but as I stated earlier, the New Testament mostly nullifies the Old Testament.  With the Quran, it's kind of the opposite...  The more violent passages typically overrule the less violent ones....
And yet this is all down to the interpretation of the individual. Everyone will always interpret the Bible or Qu'ran the way he wants. It's not about what they say, but what someone wants to do with the pretense of the interpretation. If the violence of the first testament or the Qu'ran really carried over to the majority of the people, wouldn't we all be dead? I certainly would be, considering I lived in a part of Switzerland where we had a ton of Muslim immigrants.

The question is what you think is annulling what. There are no set rules for this, so it is really up to the individual which parts he chooses to believe over others.

-konfusion
2008-04-09 07:28:12
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6716|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

David.P wrote:

Wrong. Killing kids should never be used as an excuse for your "cause" And since when are you against Russia? I thought you liked them for being able to stand up to america? Or is this like conditional depending if Islam is involved? Seriously Cam i cant believe you'd stoop so low by supporting the chechnyans(Waits for Cam to rebut this post with either a link to US/Israeli Soldiers killing children, Saying he only supported the chechnyan cause for independence not the massacre of children, Blame the russians for the casualties, Call me and anyone who disagrees with him a racist, Sick his Brigade on me to make himself look less of an idiot, Etc etc)
Supporting the idea of an independent Chechnya has nothing to do with condoning the slaughter of innocent children. I think Chechnya should have independence but I still think the Beslan terrorists are murderous scum. To be honest your post seems like a lame attempt to claim that Cam condoned the Beslan massacre...do you work for Fox News by any chance?

lowing wrote:


Yet they go crazy over another more peaceful political goal ( a cartoon) . to show Islam for what it is.
Lowing, do you go apeshit and march in the street protesting when your country invades a sovereign nation or carries out a bombing mission that kills several innocent civilians?

You certainly go apeshit whenever a Muslim asks for a room to pray in.
Nope, I support the war and the kicking the ever living shit outta Saddam, since that is what was decided needed to be done, even by the liberals of our country.

As far as the killing of civilians, if our bombing missions were specifically set out to kill innocent people you bet your ass I would protest. But America spends billions on research and development to try and minimize such events during war.
That's not good enough lowing, the civilian deaths may be a minority among the total number of fatalities but you should still come out publicly and protest vehemently against it...preferably on a news network that is seen in the Middle East so that the average Middle Easterner can see your disapproval because that's what you're demanding of Muslims when it comes to the extremist minority carrying out violent actions.
2008-04-09 07:32:14
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6716|Éire

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I dunno if Israel is as bad as you claim you should have been killed in an Israeli airstrike, yet here you are!!!..So, which argument are you gunna stick with?
Well I did encounter a detachment of the Israeli army bulldozing shut the Palestinians road to Jericho from Jerusalem so that they could no longer use it (near St. Georges monastery by the Wadi Qelt). I also witnessed more guns than I have ever seen in my life or probably ever will and had a gun pointed at me in a threatening manner at the checkpoint to Bethlehem - if I didn't respond quickly enough perhaps that soldier might have decided to gun me down, just in case (I had a bulge under my shirt from a camera strapped to my belt).
Yeah and when I was in Iraq, I had a rocket blow up the hooch 2 down from me killing a soldier and blowing me and a few of my co-workers to the ground. I was cut up pretty good from the gravel. As the siren went off we ran for the bunker and was abreast of the rocket blast ( around 25-30 ft). Later, after we emerged from the bunker to fight the fire in the hooch that was destroyed we saw where shrapnel had actually blown past us, into the hooch on the other side of us. I had minor smoke and fire extinguisher inhalation ( do treatment required, just coughed my ass off). In all 2 female soldiers and 2 civilians were killed in that attack and 7 wounded I think it was. I guess we both have "lucky to be alive" stories.
I lost a leg in Vietnam.

Two week package holiday a few years ago.

 

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