Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85

RAIMIUS wrote:

Ah, yes, we should blindly follow our leaders to genetic purity...I think that sounds familiar...

WTF?  Dude (or should I say heartless asshole).  I'm guessing you want to decide who gets to reproduce?  Or do you want to keep your hands clean of that one?
Could someone please point out where I specifically said I should get to decide who gets to reproduce?

Not like it matters, society will start making these choices within the next 100 years. You can say whatever you want about, it's coming, with you kicking and screaming or not.
HurricaИe
Banned
+877|6441|Washington DC
Fucking christ how many times do I have to say it? I'm not saying we should have something like eugenics you fucking thickheaded titcakes. I'm saying that people like serial killers, rapists should not be entrusted with raising a child. Point out where I said we should selectively breed. Point out where I fucking said "HEIL THE ARYAN RACE." Oh that's right, I never did such a thing.

Don't take my anger to heart by the way... I'm in a bad mood as it is. To see this topic and see people accusing me of being a fucking nazi essentially warrants my venting.

Last edited by HurricaИe (2008-04-09 16:24:14)

SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

HurricaИe wrote:

Fucking christ how many times do I have to say it? I'm not saying we should have something like eugenics you fucking thickheaded titcakes. I'm saying that people like serial killers, rapists should not be entrusted with raising a child. Point out where I said we should selectively breed. Point out where I fucking said "HEIL THE ARYAN RACE." Oh that's right, I never did such a thing.

Don't take my anger to heart by the way... I'm in a bad mood as it is. To see this topic and see people accusing me of being a fucking nazi essentially warrants my venting.
The argument spun out of control with Flaming_Maniac's 'contributions'.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Could someone please point out where I specifically said I should get to decide who gets to reproduce?

Not like it matters, society will start making these choices within the next 100 years. You can say whatever you want about, it's coming, with you kicking and screaming or not.
I will add that to the list, right next to 'flying car by the year 2000'.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85
No one has pointed out to me where I went all ubermensch here.

We're already starting to see genetic work effecting how people procreate. It will only be an extension of what is already going on.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

No one has pointed out to me where I went all ubermensch here.

We're already starting to see genetic work effecting how people procreate. It will only be an extension of what is already going on.
How about here:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

A very effective side effect.

If you don't have a problem with the state administering capital punishment, isn't controlling reproduction a significant step beneath that? Since killing people certainly is one way of controlling reproduction.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I think it's one of the only reasons for capital punishment at all.
Extolling capital punishment as a method of eugenics is where you went overboard.  That's where you started to seem superior.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

No one has pointed out to me where I went all ubermensch here.

We're already starting to see genetic work effecting how people procreate. It will only be an extension of what is already going on.
How about here:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

A very effective side effect.

If you don't have a problem with the state administering capital punishment, isn't controlling reproduction a significant step beneath that? Since killing people certainly is one way of controlling reproduction.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I think it's one of the only reasons for capital punishment at all.
Extolling capital punishment as a method of eugenics is where you went overboard.  That's where you started to seem superior.
I am superior to someone who has lost all natural perception of what is right and wrong, such as killing members of the same race unnecessarily, sexual assault (somewhat societal, you know what I mean), incest, etc. Disagree?

As I said the reasons you posted and that I know of for the theory behind capitol punishment I disagree with. Taking a life for the sake of it is wrong, placing undo burden on society is wrong in imprisonment, and releasing them back into society is wrong. In some cases rehabilitation is the way to go, but in many cases that is not an option, and so the only option left is to kill them. Why would we do that? Only real reason left is that society has deemed them unfit to reproduce.

yay Social Darwinism, it's happening right now, like it or not
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I am superior to someone who has lost all natural perception of what is right and wrong, such as killing members of the same race unnecessarily, sexual assault (somewhat societal, you know what I mean), incest, etc. Disagree?

As I said the reasons you posted and that I know of for the theory behind capitol punishment I disagree with. Taking a life for the sake of it is wrong, placing undo burden on society is wrong in imprisonment, and releasing them back into society is wrong. In some cases rehabilitation is the way to go, but in many cases that is not an option, and so the only option left is to kill them. Why would we do that? Only real reason left is that society has deemed them unfit to reproduce.

yay Social Darwinism, it's happening right now, like it or not
Your elitism in this thread is getting old.

You might think that the death penalty is about eugenics, but it isn't.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I am superior to someone who has lost all natural perception of what is right and wrong, such as killing members of the same race unnecessarily, sexual assault (somewhat societal, you know what I mean), incest, etc. Disagree?

As I said the reasons you posted and that I know of for the theory behind capitol punishment I disagree with. Taking a life for the sake of it is wrong, placing undo burden on society is wrong in imprisonment, and releasing them back into society is wrong. In some cases rehabilitation is the way to go, but in many cases that is not an option, and so the only option left is to kill them. Why would we do that? Only real reason left is that society has deemed them unfit to reproduce.

yay Social Darwinism, it's happening right now, like it or not
Your elitism in this thread is getting old.

You might think that the death penalty is about eugenics, but it isn't.
So what is it about? What else gives you the right to take a life?
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

So what is it about? What else gives you the right to take a life?
Deterrence, retribution, rehabilitation for the worst criminals.  The death penalty is not about eugenics and I honestly don't know where you could get that idea.

As for what gives the state the right to take a life--there really is no good reason.  I used to support the death penalty without question, but now I don't really know what to think.  I don't think the state should have the right to control aspects of your life, and by extension, the state should not be able to take your life.  But then, some criminals are irredeemable.  That is a discussion for another time though.
Tushers
Noctwisaskfirtush
+224|7165|Some where huntin in Wisconsin
bitches in that video should be fucking curbstomped you srsly dont do that to someone rly

and the question

depends rapist fuck no i think if you rape someone and the other person did not want anything to do with it then they should be in jail for life thats disgusting in my book but people like my friend

ok my friend is 17 may 3 or somthing his gf is 17 and shes june somthign so they where doin it in the car in some random ass parking lot and the cops pulled up so my buddy got cuffed and was looking for a life sentence for stagatory rape when his gfs mom said it was fine ( long story but i aint explaining it now) so the charges got dropped but peple like my buddy if he would of got charged as a rapist i think he would be fine idk

rapist no
murders no
gay people dont think they can but thats not the question
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

So what is it about? What else gives you the right to take a life?
Deterrence, retribution, rehabilitation for the worst criminals.  The death penalty is not about eugenics and I honestly don't know where you could get that idea.

As for what gives the state the right to take a life--there really is no good reason.  I used to support the death penalty without question, but now I don't really know what to think.  I don't think the state should have the right to control aspects of your life, and by extension, the state should not be able to take your life.  But then, some criminals are irredeemable.  That is a discussion for another time though.
Like I said though, those are the given reasons in politics, but generally deterrence has found to be ineffective, retribution by killing is an terrible, and rehabilitation doesn't fit all cases.

They tell us those are the reasons...but they just aren't. What we're really effectively saying is after a fair trial by your peers you have been found unfit to live a normal life in society, and we are unwilling to support you in prison, removing a threat to society and removing them from the gene pool.

That much is fact. Maybe word it differently, try to say there are other reasons...but that's what it comes down to. The opinion comes in when I say that's okay as long as there is due process of law, and you have your own views.

It is happening though every time someone is put to death the gene pool is being artificially altered in a very calculated manner.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Like I said though, those are the given reasons in politics, but generally deterrence has found to be ineffective, retribution by killing is an terrible, and rehabilitation doesn't fit all cases.

They tell us those are the reasons...but they just aren't. What we're really effectively saying is after a fair trial by your peers you have been found unfit to live a normal life in society, and we are unwilling to support you in prison, removing a threat to society and removing them from the gene pool.

That much is fact. Maybe word it differently, try to say there are other reasons...but that's what it comes down to. The opinion comes in when I say that's okay as long as there is due process of law, and you have your own views.

It is happening though every time someone is put to death the gene pool is being artificially altered in a very calculated manner.
I disagree.  The logic is that the person is unfit for society.  Not that their genes are unfit for society.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7187|67.222.138.85

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Like I said though, those are the given reasons in politics, but generally deterrence has found to be ineffective, retribution by killing is an terrible, and rehabilitation doesn't fit all cases.

They tell us those are the reasons...but they just aren't. What we're really effectively saying is after a fair trial by your peers you have been found unfit to live a normal life in society, and we are unwilling to support you in prison, removing a threat to society and removing them from the gene pool.

That much is fact. Maybe word it differently, try to say there are other reasons...but that's what it comes down to. The opinion comes in when I say that's okay as long as there is due process of law, and you have your own views.

It is happening though every time someone is put to death the gene pool is being artificially altered in a very calculated manner.
I disagree.  The logic is that the person is unfit for society.  Not that their genes are unfit for society.
I see the two as one and the same.

A person's only true goal in life is to pass on their genes. Keeping someone from that goal is essentially killing them. Viewed this way eternal imprisonment is equal, but it places an unnecessary economic burden on society.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

I disagree.  The logic is that the person is unfit for society.  Not that their genes are unfit for society.
I see the two as one and the same.

A person's only true goal in life is to pass on their genes. Keeping someone from that goal is essentially killing them. Viewed this way eternal imprisonment is equal, but it places an unnecessary economic burden on society.
While they reach the same end, it comes down to motives.

I have a question though:  What about the murderer that already has children?  Do those kids get looked at as less, since they carry the genes of their convicted parent?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7155|Canberra, AUS
Flat out no. The state should not decide matters of fundemental human rights based on ANY ethics system. I couldn't give two fucks what system.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7155|Canberra, AUS

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Like I said though, those are the given reasons in politics, but generally deterrence has found to be ineffective, retribution by killing is an terrible, and rehabilitation doesn't fit all cases.

They tell us those are the reasons...but they just aren't. What we're really effectively saying is after a fair trial by your peers you have been found unfit to live a normal life in society, and we are unwilling to support you in prison, removing a threat to society and removing them from the gene pool.

That much is fact. Maybe word it differently, try to say there are other reasons...but that's what it comes down to. The opinion comes in when I say that's okay as long as there is due process of law, and you have your own views.

It is happening though every time someone is put to death the gene pool is being artificially altered in a very calculated manner.
I disagree.  The logic is that the person is unfit for society.  Not that their genes are unfit for society.
I see the two as one and the same.

A person's only true goal in life is to pass on their genes. Keeping someone from that goal is essentially killing them. Viewed this way eternal imprisonment is equal, but it places an unnecessary economic burden on society.
Eugenics.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,081|7252|PNW

Should the state be able to prevent people from reproducing?
They already do...with the eager help of Rusty McRifle and his amazing clusterbomb escapades.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-04-10 00:08:38)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7321|Cologne, Germany

yes. But not as part of eugenics. Instead, I'd take other factors into consideration, such as the abilitiy of the parents to support the raising of a child financially, and their social competence, education, etc..

I mean, why would you want to allow a homeless, jobless drug addict to procreate, for example ? That child is basically guaranteed to end up being raised without a proper education, without a sense of responsibility, and is less likely to be able to become a productive member of society.

Today, the chances of a child to "make it" in society depend so much on the way it is being brought up. Education, moral values, a sense of responsibility, all of that starts with the parents.

Last night, I watched a TV program about families living in social housing. I am talking about broke, jobless, under-educated parents living off welfare. And what do they do all day long ? Fucking procreate ! That family had 4 children, and the woman was already pregnant again.
I know for a fact that I will have to support those children with my tax euros, without getting anything in return.

I am not saying that underprivileged children cannot make it today at all, and become productive members of society, but their chances are
slim. And for every underprivileged child that makes it out of the mud, there are 3 or 4 that won't, and will have to rely on welfare for the rest of their lifes. I have seen documentaries showing 3 generations of families living of welfare, without a proper education, no job, or sense of responsibility. No future, essentially.

And that ticks me off, not because out of a false sense of supremacy, but because I know that for our society to succeed, we need everyone to contribute. We simply cannot have generations of uneducated, jobless people living off welfare and draining tax money out of the system without giving something in return.

The problem is, it will be difficult for us to convince underprivileged people not to procreate. A financial incentive could be a solution. Instead of paying them tax money for every child they get ( as it is now ), pay them for not having children. That way, we would at least not have to support future generations.

I am not coming across too harsh, am I ?
Nappy
Apprentice
+151|6709|NSW, Australia

china does it...or is that japan :S

same difference
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6860|MN
That's a bit harsh isn't it!?

I actually agree with you, my wife and I have had many discussions on this subject.  I hate free-loaders, and I would love to see some way of limiting their re-production.  Of course the dilemma is who gets to make the call on this sort of thing.  Should the government be able to tell a family they are not allowed to have any more children?  Or as you stated provide some sort of incentive for not having children. 

I work with enough underprivileged people to know how they think.  As long as there is more incentive to not achieve more, they will not.  They are quite proud of their ability to live off of "The Man".  Changing that mind set will take some creative thinking on someones part.

Nappy wrote:

china does it...or is that japan :S

same difference
China, but a poor example to say the least.

Last edited by LividBovine (2008-04-10 02:08:57)

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6610|North Tonawanda, NY

B.Schuss wrote:

yes. But not as part of eugenics. Instead, I'd take other factors into consideration, such as the abilitiy of the parents to support the raising of a child financially, and their social competence, education, etc..

I mean, why would you want to allow a homeless, jobless drug addict to procreate, for example ? That child is basically guaranteed to end up being raised without a proper education, without a sense of responsibility, and is less likely to be able to become a productive member of society.

Today, the chances of a child to "make it" in society depend so much on the way it is being brought up. Education, moral values, a sense of responsibility, all of that starts with the parents.

Last night, I watched a TV program about families living in social housing. I am talking about broke, jobless, under-educated parents living off welfare. And what do they do all day long ? Fucking procreate ! That family had 4 children, and the woman was already pregnant again.
I know for a fact that I will have to support those children with my tax euros, without getting anything in return.

I am not saying that underprivileged children cannot make it today at all, and become productive members of society, but their chances are
slim. And for every underprivileged child that makes it out of the mud, there are 3 or 4 that won't, and will have to rely on welfare for the rest of their lifes. I have seen documentaries showing 3 generations of families living of welfare, without a proper education, no job, or sense of responsibility. No future, essentially.

And that ticks me off, not because out of a false sense of supremacy, but because I know that for our society to succeed, we need everyone to contribute. We simply cannot have generations of uneducated, jobless people living off welfare and draining tax money out of the system without giving something in return.

The problem is, it will be difficult for us to convince underprivileged people not to procreate. A financial incentive could be a solution. Instead of paying them tax money for every child they get ( as it is now ), pay them for not having children. That way, we would at least not have to support future generations.

I am not coming across too harsh, am I ?
Is that really the best solution?  Or should the government provide less to those who do not have any urge to work?  If they can't provide for their kids, toss the parents in jail.  It's far from an ideal solution, because you have to do something with the kids...  Foster care is hardly beneficial.  The problem would probably decrease (albeit, eventually) but I bet it would never go away.  This would cause an undue burden on society, which might be larger than the current impact.  I really didn't think this through entirely.

But, I don't think government imposed reproduction limits/restrictions are the best solution.
covenant
Member
+4|6694

Nappy wrote:

china does it...or is that japan :S

same difference
china, they dont really control the people who are allowed children. they just limit you to one child
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6891|'Murka

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Like I said though, those are the given reasons in politics, but generally deterrence has found to be ineffective, retribution by killing is an terrible, and rehabilitation doesn't fit all cases.

They tell us those are the reasons...but they just aren't. What we're really effectively saying is after a fair trial by your peers you have been found unfit to live a normal life in society, and we are unwilling to support you in prison, removing a threat to society and removing them from the gene pool.

That much is fact. Maybe word it differently, try to say there are other reasons...but that's what it comes down to. The opinion comes in when I say that's okay as long as there is due process of law, and you have your own views.

It is happening though every time someone is put to death the gene pool is being artificially altered in a very calculated manner.
I disagree.  The logic is that the person is unfit for society.  Not that their genes are unfit for society.
I see the two as one and the same.

A person's only true goal in life is to pass on their genes. Keeping someone from that goal is essentially killing them. Viewed this way eternal imprisonment is equal, but it places an unnecessary economic burden on society.
You keep confusing a collateral effect with the primary reason for capital punishment. Notice the second word in the phrase: punishment. The process is about punishing the individual (in the ultimate sense) for their crime(s). The intent is so that they cannot re-enter society and commit their crime(s) again. It has zero to do with their genes or the passing of them. The fact that they are unable to pass their genes on because they are dead (which isn't really the case, with modern technology) is collateral to the true reason for the punishment.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7321|Cologne, Germany

the problem atm is that in our tolerant, free, and democratic societies, it will be impossible to enact legislation that has such a huge influence on the privacy of the citizens. Limiting reproduction to those that are deemed "fit", is like telling someone that he has to stop breathing, because he is taking away air from the people that deserve it.

Especially here in europe, with the knowledge about what the Nazis did in this "area", I don't see this happening anytime soon, if at all.

Procreation is a basic human right, if you will.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard