YESCameronPoe wrote:
Are you incapable of answering the following question with a simple 'Yes' or a simple 'No'?lowing wrote:
In the US? You already answered it with your own quote, Cam.............."OFF PREMISIS INSTRUCTION"
Does the US legal system facilitate Muslim prayer during school hours?
Ummmmm how about actually integrating? Is it really too much to ask to become a citizen or learn the language, traditions and customs of your new country?? Is it really??B.Schuss wrote:
then what has an immigrant to do to fit your definition of integration ?
My girlfriend is a pre-school teacher here in Dublin and she has 2 Pakistani kids, 1 Romani gypsy kid, a German kid, a Chinese kid and 5 Nigerian kids among the classes she teaches and they all speak Gaeilge never mind English. There was a Pakistani guy on a daytime talk show on Irish TV yesterday speaking fluent Gaeilge and at the last Irish soccer International there was a big group of African guys wearing Irish jerseys cheering on our National team in Croke Park, which the cameraman kept zooming in on. My local mosque actually has the name of the mosque written in Gaeilge on the side in Celtic writing ("Mosc Atha Chliath"). We actually have a Minister for Integration in Ireland and a pretty good television campaign for effective integration and awareness for both the immigrant population and the indigenous population. To be honest lowing the only group of people who have never integrated well into Irish society is the traveller community, and the problem there is they are Irish.lowing wrote:
Ummmmm how about actually integrating? Is it really too much to ask to become a citizen or learn the language, traditions and customs of your new country?? Is it really??B.Schuss wrote:
then what has an immigrant to do to fit your definition of integration ?
as braddock has explained, that seems to happen, at least in Ireland.lowing wrote:
Ummmmm how about actually integrating? Is it really too much to ask to become a citizen or learn the language, traditions and customs of your new country?? Is it really??B.Schuss wrote:
then what has an immigrant to do to fit your definition of integration ?
Ireland is not the end all or be all to immigration throughout Europe and the US.B.Schuss wrote:
as braddock has explained, that seems to happen, at least in Ireland.lowing wrote:
Ummmmm how about actually integrating? Is it really too much to ask to become a citizen or learn the language, traditions and customs of your new country?? Is it really??B.Schuss wrote:
then what has an immigrant to do to fit your definition of integration ?
I do agree that immigrants should be expected to learn the language and become citizens, but what do you mean by "traditions and customs" ?
I do sympathise to a degree with what you are trying to say but can you give me a definition of what 'traditions and customs', 'culture' if you will, such people should adhere to in your own country, for example?lowing wrote:
Ireland is not the end all or be all to immigration throughout Europe and the US.
You do not know what traditions and customs are in a given country? You do realize that each country is unique in its traditions and customs and that it might be agood idea if not simply courteous to be familiar with them?
As YOU would expect for any US citizen to recognize and respect in your country. Damn that double standard huh?
Ummmm, how about we do not wash our fucking feet in the sink??CameronPoe wrote:
I do sympathise to a degree with what you are trying to say but can you give me a definition of what 'traditions and customs', 'culture' if you will, such people should adhere to in your own country, for example?lowing wrote:
Ireland is not the end all or be all to immigration throughout Europe and the US.
You do not know what traditions and customs are in a given country? You do realize that each country is unique in its traditions and customs and that it might be agood idea if not simply courteous to be familiar with them?
As YOU would expect for any US citizen to recognize and respect in your country. Damn that double standard huh?
That's a bit fascist isn't it? Dictating how somebody should wash themselves. America, to my knowledge, involves personal freedoms that include the ability to wash oneself in any manner one sees fit as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else...lowing wrote:
Ummmm, how about we do not wash our fucking feet in the sink??
I agree there - all immigrants must learn the language of their adopted country. Your disgust at families preserving their tongue though is again a little bit anti-American: you seek to impose on them what language they speak amongst themselves?lowing wrote:
How about, we speak fucking English, learn it and read it and speak it. I get pretty disgusted with seeing a young mother talking to her kids in a norign language.
That is not an issue. If a waiter will not serve pork then he will be sacked. If he is not sacked then you do not frequent that restaurant again. It's a private enterprise - the cornerstone of the American economy. The proprietor reserves the right to dictate what service he provides and if customers don't like it then he'll soon feel it on his balance sheet.lowing wrote:
We eat pork here, if you are a fucking waiter........serve it
Sacked. The cabbie has a duty to carry out the requirements of what being a cabbie entails. He'll soon learn how to integrate if he can't feed his family.lowing wrote:
We call cabs when we have had too much to drink ( or we are supposed ) if you are a fucking cabbie, take us home.
That's fair enough. I don't see how or where that has or is being compromised. Not in Europe anyway.lowing wrote:
We take our tests in English.
While I find the idea of a person in a Burkha giving me medical advice or operating on me it would be an entitlement under the freedom of religion clause of your constitution (I think), as the wearing of one would not be negatively impacting on you (provided obviously that the design meets medical cleanliness requirements, etc.). The US is far more multi-cultural than Europe, one must bear in mind.lowing wrote:
We like to talk to our doctors face to face. NOT face to burka
Under the freedom of speech provision of your constitution people can complain about whatever they want. So by being anal on shit like that they are in fact exhibiting a very American value. Their complaints don't necessitate anybody doing anything about squat because everybody has the freedom in America to call them by whatever name they see fit to call them.lowing wrote:
We celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valintines Day etc....... either join us in our festivites or shut the fuck up about how we need to change the names to Happy Holidays, Spring Festival, Fall Festival, because you might be offended.
1. fuck you, wash your stinkin' feet at home not in a public sinkCameronPoe wrote:
That's a bit fascist isn't it? Dictating how somebody should wash themselves. America, to my knowledge, involves personal freedoms that include the ability to wash oneself in any manner one sees fit as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else...lowing wrote:
Ummmm, how about we do not wash our fucking feet in the sink??I agree there - all immigrants must learn the language of their adopted country. Your disgust at families preserving their tongue though is again a little bit anti-American: you seek to impose on them what language they speak amongst themselves?lowing wrote:
How about, we speak fucking English, learn it and read it and speak it. I get pretty disgusted with seeing a young mother talking to her kids in a norign language.That is not an issue. If a waiter will not serve pork then he will be sacked. If he is not sacked then you do not frequent that restaurant again. It's a private enterprise - the cornerstone of the American economy. The proprietor reserves the right to dictate what service he provides and if customers don't like it then he'll soon feel it on his balance sheet.lowing wrote:
We eat pork here, if you are a fucking waiter........serve itSacked. The cabbie has a duty to carry out the requirements of what being a cabbie entails. He'll soon learn how to integrate if he can't feed his family.lowing wrote:
We call cabs when we have had too much to drink ( or we are supposed ) if you are a fucking cabbie, take us home.That's fair enough. I don't see how or where that has or is being compromised. Not in Europe anyway.lowing wrote:
We take our tests in English.While I find the idea of a person in a Burkha giving me medical advice or operating on me it would be an entitlement under the freedom of religion clause of your constitution (I think), as the wearing of one would not be negatively impacting on you (provided obviously that the design meets medical cleanliness requirements, etc.). The US is far more multi-cultural than Europe, one must bear in mind.lowing wrote:
We like to talk to our doctors face to face. NOT face to burkaUnder the freedom of speech provision of your constitution people can complain about whatever they want. So by being anal on shit like that they are in fact exhibiting a very American value. Their complaints don't necessitate anybody doing anything about squat because everybody has the freedom in America to call them by whatever name they see fit to call them.lowing wrote:
We celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valintines Day etc....... either join us in our festivites or shut the fuck up about how we need to change the names to Happy Holidays, Spring Festival, Fall Festival, because you might be offended.
Hahahhaahahahahahahahahaha...lowing wrote:
We celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valintines Day etc....... either join us in our festivites or shut the fuck up about how we need to change the names to Happy Holidays, Spring Festival, Fall Festival, because you might be offended.
I don't really care about the rest of your complaints, you can complain about whatever you like but I take exception to the comment on people speaking their native tongue amongst themselves as being lazy and indifferent. I speak Gaeilge to my girlfriend and if I have kids I will teach it to them (even if I lived on the other side of the world), it's because I feel it is a part of what I am, it's part of my identity and I want to keep it alive in my genes...maybe Americans don't appreciate this as much because for many their heritage has been phased out over the generations and 'Americanised' if you will - I don't know, the same thing has happened to my relatives born overseas, none of my English or Scottish cousins speak Gaeilge. My brothers and I were the only members of my Dad's side of the family to keep the language alive in our clan, it would have been extinct only for that.lowing wrote:
1. fuck you, wash your stinkin' feet at home not in a public sink
2. It isn't "preserving their tongue" it is they are too lazy or indifferent to learn the language themselves and aee no reason to learn it or teach it to their kids.
3. I don't give a shit. an example was asked for and one was given. I don't need a fuckin' solution or explaination from you or to be told what I am supposed to like or dislike.
4. see above.
5. see above.
6. see above.
7.. If I am free to compalin about whatever I want, then I will complain about immigrants that do not assimilate or integrate and pretty much you can take what you think about my complaints and shove it up your liberal apologist ass.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha......Morpheus1229 wrote:
Hahahhaahahahahahahahahaha...lowing wrote:
We celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valintines Day etc....... either join us in our festivites or shut the fuck up about how we need to change the names to Happy Holidays, Spring Festival, Fall Festival, because you might be offended.
wow. posting in epic thread tbh.
So, instead of being allowed religious freedom, they HAVE to be Christian, now, even though OUR CONSTITUTION, which YOU CONSTANTLY BRING UP, dictates separation of church and state (a fact mentioned by you many times)? You did realize that Christmas and Easter are RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS, not SECULAR ones? To that effect, so is Thanksgiving.
If you planned on moving t oanother country, you would learn the language of he land? Or do you expect that everyone cater to your language?Braddock wrote:
I don't really care about the rest of your complaints, you can complain about whatever you like but I take exception to the comment on people speaking their native tongue amongst themselves as being lazy and indifferent. I speak Gaeilge to my girlfriend and if I have kids I will teach it to them (even if I lived on the other side of the world), it's because I feel it is a part of what I am, it's part of my identity and I want to keep it alive in my genes...maybe Americans don't appreciate this as much because for many their heritage has been phased out over the generations and 'Americanised' if you will - I don't know, the same thing has happened to my relatives born overseas, none of my English or Scottish cousins speak Gaeilge. My brothers and I were the only members of my Dad's side of the family to keep the language alive in our clan, it would have been extinct only for that.lowing wrote:
1. fuck you, wash your stinkin' feet at home not in a public sink
2. It isn't "preserving their tongue" it is they are too lazy or indifferent to learn the language themselves and aee no reason to learn it or teach it to their kids.
3. I don't give a shit. an example was asked for and one was given. I don't need a fuckin' solution or explaination from you or to be told what I am supposed to like or dislike.
4. see above.
5. see above.
6. see above.
7.. If I am free to compalin about whatever I want, then I will complain about immigrants that do not assimilate or integrate and pretty much you can take what you think about my complaints and shove it up your liberal apologist ass.
Having said that you HAVE to learn the language of the country you have moved to. HAVE TO.
Oh, I thought you meant the actual holidays, not the media shit they've become. (that was agreement)lowing wrote:
Hahahahahahahahahahaha......Morpheus1229 wrote:
Hahahhaahahahahahahahahaha...lowing wrote:
We celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valintines Day etc....... either join us in our festivites or shut the fuck up about how we need to change the names to Happy Holidays, Spring Festival, Fall Festival, because you might be offended.
wow. posting in epic thread tbh.
So, instead of being allowed religious freedom, they HAVE to be Christian, now, even though OUR CONSTITUTION, which YOU CONSTANTLY BRING UP, dictates separation of church and state (a fact mentioned by you many times)? You did realize that Christmas and Easter are RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS, not SECULAR ones? To that effect, so is Thanksgiving.
Nope never said that. I said stop trying to change what others believe or celebrate because you are offended.
Christmas is not a Christian holiday, it was adopted by Christianity because they could not stop people from celebrating the winter solstace, so instead they made where if people are gunna celebrate hey will damn well celebrate Jesus. Today, it is a secular holiday, unless of course Santa Claus and his flying reindeer are somehow tied to the bible.
I could say the same for the Easter Bunny
well, that seems reasonable, but that was never the issue here. They weren't trying to change other's religion.lowing wrote:
Nope never said that. I said stop trying to change what others believe or celebrate because you are offended
I would learn the language of the land AND continue to speak Gaeilge and English to my family and friends.lowing wrote:
If you planned on moving to another country, you would learn the language of the land? Or do you expect that everyone cater to your language?
Yes you can, in my opinion. But don't they speak French in parts of Louisiana too?lowing wrote:
Can I as an American demand that everyone in the country I move to conduct themselves in English including their official documents?
I think you're making yourself out to be a bit of a victim lowing. Have people actually criticised you on here for believing that anyone moving to the US should learn to speak English? Seems a reasonable enough demand to me. I certainly get annoyed when someone answering the phone in a take away can't speak proper English.lowing wrote:
It is funny how I mentioned this for the third time and I can not get any response to it. As an American, I am arrogant to expect that everyone conform to me in THEIR country, and I am a racist if I expect people to do the same in mine. Funny thing, that.
1. then we are not talking about the same thingBraddock wrote:
I would learn the language of the land AND continue to speak Gaeilge and English to my family and friends.lowing wrote:
If you planned on moving to another country, you would learn the language of the land? Or do you expect that everyone cater to your language?Yes you can, in my opinion. But don't they speak French in parts of Louisiana too?lowing wrote:
Can I as an American demand that everyone in the country I move to conduct themselves in English including their official documents?I think you're making yourself out to be a bit of a victim lowing. Have people actually criticised you on here for believing that anyone moving to the US should learn to speak English? Seems a reasonable enough demand to me. I certainly get annoyed when someone answering the phone in a take away can't speak proper English.lowing wrote:
It is funny how I mentioned this for the third time and I can not get any response to it. As an American, I am arrogant to expect that everyone conform to me in THEIR country, and I am a racist if I expect people to do the same in mine. Funny thing, that.
Last edited by lowing (2008-04-10 16:56:39)
Sorry, misunderstanding on No.2 there, I thought you meant demand that everyone coming to your country should learn English and so on.lowing wrote:
1. then we are not talking about the same thingBraddock wrote:
I would learn the language of the land AND continue to speak Gaeilge and English to my family and friends.lowing wrote:
If you planned on moving to another country, you would learn the language of the land? Or do you expect that everyone cater to your language?Yes you can, in my opinion. But don't they speak French in parts of Louisiana too?lowing wrote:
Can I as an American demand that everyone in the country I move to conduct themselves in English including their official documents?I think you're making yourself out to be a bit of a victim lowing. Have people actually criticised you on here for believing that anyone moving to the US should learn to speak English? Seems a reasonable enough demand to me. I certainly get annoyed when someone answering the phone in a take away can't speak proper English.lowing wrote:
It is funny how I mentioned this for the third time and I can not get any response to it. As an American, I am arrogant to expect that everyone conform to me in THEIR country, and I am a racist if I expect people to do the same in mine. Funny thing, that.
2. bullshit, Americans are considered arrogant and self centered by the rest of the world, and in any other thread, I would be considered just that if I spouted off about how the rest of the world should cater to us as Americans, and you know it.
3. I am not considering myself a victim, I am merely stating the obvious.
I don't give a shit if anyone that comes to America learns English or not. Just don't EXPECT us to go out of our way to accomadate anyone in THEIR language.Braddock wrote:
Sorry, misunderstanding on No.2 there, I thought you meant demand that everyone coming to your country should learn English and so on.lowing wrote:
1. then we are not talking about the same thingBraddock wrote:
I would learn the language of the land AND continue to speak Gaeilge and English to my family and friends.lowing wrote:
If you planned on moving to another country, you would learn the language of the land? Or do you expect that everyone cater to your language?Yes you can, in my opinion. But don't they speak French in parts of Louisiana too?lowing wrote:
Can I as an American demand that everyone in the country I move to conduct themselves in English including their official documents?
I think you're making yourself out to be a bit of a victim lowing. Have people actually criticised you on here for believing that anyone moving to the US should learn to speak English? Seems a reasonable enough demand to me. I certainly get annoyed when someone answering the phone in a take away can't speak proper English.
2. bullshit, Americans are considered arrogant and self centered by the rest of the world, and in any other thread, I would be considered just that if I spouted off about how the rest of the world should cater to us as Americans, and you know it.
3. I am not considering myself a victim, I am merely stating the obvious.
A Freudian mis-reading perhaps!?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.lowing wrote:
1. fuck you, wash your stinkin' feet at home not in a public sink
2. It isn't "preserving their tongue" it is they are too lazy or indifferent to learn the language themselves and aee no reason to learn it or teach it to their kids.
3. I don't give a shit. an example was asked for and one was given. I don't need a fuckin' solution or explaination from you or to be told what I am supposed to like or dislike.
4. see above.
5. see above.
6. see above.
7.. If I am free to compalin about whatever I want, then I will complain about immigrants that do not assimilate or integrate and pretty much you can take what you think about my complaints and shove it up your liberal apologist ass.
When that was written Islam and its oppressivness and intolerance as well as the illegal immigration from Mexico was not taken into consideration. It is only people like you that are now making us choke (PC) on our own words.CameronPoe wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.lowing wrote:
1. fuck you, wash your stinkin' feet at home not in a public sink
2. It isn't "preserving their tongue" it is they are too lazy or indifferent to learn the language themselves and aee no reason to learn it or teach it to their kids.
3. I don't give a shit. an example was asked for and one was given. I don't need a fuckin' solution or explaination from you or to be told what I am supposed to like or dislike.
4. see above.
5. see above.
6. see above.
7.. If I am free to compalin about whatever I want, then I will complain about immigrants that do not assimilate or integrate and pretty much you can take what you think about my complaints and shove it up your liberal apologist ass.
If you don't agree with the above then you do not adhere to an American value system.
As to no.2 - I would learn for myself and teach my children the language of any adopted nation I might have but I would also ingrain in them their root culture and language also. That's the problem/beauty of America: it is supposed to be the paragon of multiculturalism (as I gather from the constitution) as such no one culture will predominate or has any higher value than another.
So you're telling me that the constitution of the United States of America, the basis of your nation, is outdated and that you don't agree with elements of it? Perhaps you should move somewhere else. I hear Russia are big on racism and beating their Muslim citizens into submission.lowing wrote:
When that was written Islam and its oppressivness and intolerance as well as the illegal immigration from Mexico was not taken into consideration. It is only people like you that are now making us choke (PC) on our own words.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-11 05:15:08)
Nope, simply learn the language, follow the laws, and stop bitching about Americans and our way of life, and try and change it.B.Schuss wrote:
I guess what lowing is implying is that there is a "american" culture or value system that goes beyond the basic provisions of the constitution and the bill of rights. for example, as far as I know, the constitution doesn't give a state religion, or an official state language; yet, the US are predominantly christian/catholic, and the main language is english.
On the cultural level, there are things like Halloween, Valentine's Day, NASCAR racing, rodeo, Spring break, Football, etc...
small things that make up the core of what America is.
The question is, what level of integration/assimilation is desirable ? Would it be sufficient for the immigrants to learn the language, and follow the laws of the land ? Or would you want them to give up their old religion, and language, and traditions, too ?
Nope, I think the Constitution is fine, what I think the problem is, is people like you, who want to interpret its good intentions and meaning to include a religion that has a core value that goes against it.CameronPoe wrote:
So you're telling me that the constitution of the United States of America, the basis of your nation, is outdated and that you don't agree with elements of it? Perhaps you should move somewhere else. I hear Russia are big on racism and beating their Muslim citizens into submission.lowing wrote:
When that was written Islam and its oppressivness and intolerance as well as the illegal immigration from Mexico was not taken into consideration. It is only people like you that are now making us choke (PC) on our own words.
The words are plain, simple and leave little to the imagination in terms of interpretation. So put up or shut up. You would have been better advised to have designed a consitution like we have in Ireland which recognises the role of Christianity in shaping our laws and institutions. Put a consitutional amendment to the house or just continue to bitch about it and have people laugh at the pointlessness of your bitching. I doubt very much that restriction on freedom of religion would ever pass senate, congress or referendum.lowing wrote:
Nope, I think the Constitution is fine, what I think the problem is, is people like you, who want to interpret its good intentions and meaning to include a religion that has a core value that goes against it.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-11 05:37:10)