BF2S Forums Has America Learned its Lesson?

lowing wrote:

3. Nope, politicians must lie, you will never get elected by telling people what they might not want to hear.

Last edited by Overdose (2008-04-15 18:58:47)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

After running into much the same situation in the Middle East as we did in Vietnam, with somewhat equally dismal results, have we finally learned how to run a war in the current age?

Have the people learned that war is never a light or easy matter to be done with in a few weeks or months, no matter what the people in charge tell them?

Have the politicians learned that the people do not appreciate being lied to, and any short term advantages of blatant lying are utterly overshadowed in the long run?

Have the military leaders learned how to more effectively fight an unconventional war, with special regard to not relying on new, unproven technology? (M-16, computerized warfare)

I feel the attitudes taken at least with this war (as I feel unqualified to talk too directly about Vietnam) are taking us a step backwards, that we are not learning from our mistakes.

san4 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

After running into much the same situation in the Middle East as we did in Vietnam, with somewhat equally dismal results, have we finally learned how to run a war in the current age?

Have the people learned that war is never a light or easy matter to be done with in a few weeks or months, no matter what the people in charge tell them?

Have the politicians learned that the people do not appreciate being lied to, and any short term advantages of blatant lying are utterly overshadowed in the long run?

Have the military leaders learned how to more effectively fight an unconventional war, with special regard to not relying on new, unproven technology? (M-16, computerized warfare)

I feel the attitudes taken at least with this war (as I feel unqualified to talk too directly about Vietnam) are taking us a step backwards, that we are not learning from our mistakes.

I think the current war in Iraq does not reflect what "we" have learned. If the public had not been given inaccurate information about Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs, the public would not have supported the war. Exactly the things you point out would have made the public very wary: people understand that a war can last a long time, and Americans can die, so the public doesn't want to go into a war without a very good reason. I definitely think the American public has learned something from Vietnam.

I'm not sure what the military expected to happen after the war but the civilian government (the White House) was clearly unprepared.

I don't think the Iraq war says much about what "the people" have learned or not learned because the initiation and planning of the Iraq war and its aftermath was simply incompetent. I don't think everyone is incompetent. A better administration could have done it much better, or not done it at all.

ATG wrote:

I'll take BJ's in the oval office over endless war any days.

Turquoise wrote:

We may learn things in the short run, but our short memories allow us to make the same mistakes over and over again.

imortal wrote:

Overdose wrote:

lowing wrote:

3. Nope, politicians must lie, you will never get elected by telling people what they might not want to hear.

Obama hasn't lied to us, and he might be elected to be our next president...

...more accurately, Obama has not been caught in a lie to us yet.  He is a politician, and thus in ALWAYS suspect.  Also, until he is elected, he is not in a position for any lies to be meaningful.

He also isn't saying that much of substance, other than yelling "Change!"

imortal wrote:

lowing wrote:

imortal wrote:

...more accurately, Obama has not been caught in a lie to us yet.  He is a politician, and thus in ALWAYS suspect.  Also, until he is elected, he is not in a position for any lies to be meaningful.

He also isn't saying that much of substance, other than yelling "Change!"

He has been caught in a lie. Rev. Wright is a hint

Minor, in the grand scheme of things.  Sorry, but it is.  You want impressive lies, just wait and watch whenever Hillary opens her mouth.

Overdose wrote:

Obama hasn't lied to us, and he might be elected to be our next president...

Last edited by LividBovine (2008-04-15 21:11:57)

When it is time to fight, fight ruthlessly. As badly as you may want to be loved, it is essential to be feared. At the first sign of an insurgency, terrorist activity or violent criminal activity, you must respond with a ferocity that shocks your would-be opponenets, their sympathizers, and, yes, the media. Crush resistance immediately without restraint or compromise. When the rule is broken, our troops must redeem failed policy with their blood.

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don’t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.

1..No we have not, politics in this war, like in Vietnam, has hindered our military from doing what it is capable of doing decisively.

2.If this war was over in a matter of weeks, Americans would have over a 90% approval rate for defeating terrorism, but, because it might be inconvenient, to us to win it, all of a sudden we do not want to be bothered to engage in it.

4. Our military can fight this war, and win it. They know what needs to be done. Politics, and PC, combined with a news crew up your ass makes conducting the ugly business of war, very hard for those that know what needs to be done to win it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-04-16 01:23:43)

Kmarion wrote:

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don’t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-16 01:58:58)