BF2S Forums Appeasement...

It'll stop soon enough. One of two things will happen:
1. The US will become so preoccupied with China that we stop messing with other countries.
2. The US economy will continue to tank as we outsource all jobs except McDonald's cashiers and fry cooks, leaving us finacially unable to mess with other countries.

You aren't allowed to say appeasement, the word belongs to Lowing.

Braddock wrote:

3. Turkey allow the US to launch operations on Iraq from their region despite strong domestic and International opposition and the inherent risks to stability along their own Southern border, not to mention the negative financial impact the first Gulf war had on their own economy.

As I said in another thread...you ever seen $25 million in cash with your own eyes?  I have.  And that was just a small fraction of the bribes paid to local military officials and politicians.  Turkey is corrupt as shit.  Your tax dollars help.

I'll also say there's no real "risk of instability", Turkish gov't has been playing the "ZOMG I'm a victim of terrorists" card for so long, the local villagers that live next to Kurds don't believe it any more.  It was so strange to see terrorist and non-terrorist 5-year-olds running around and playing together.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

7. The International community turns a continual blind eye to allegations of torture and human rights abuse by the US in Guantanamo bay and elsewhere and yet jump immediately to condemn questionable figures who are in charge of third world nations.

Could be because no allegations have ever been substantiated, despite numerous investigations, both internal or external. Oh, that's right...it's always "guilty until proven innocent" when dealing with allegations against the US, never the other way.

Braddock wrote:

My question is when is this appeasement going to stop. Discuss.

In order for it to stop, it has to first start.

You ever notice how you can't tell right-wingers from liberal satirists anymore?

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I've noticed an alarming increase in the frequency of acts of appeasement in the global community recently. More often than not these acts have been allowed to happen because of an implicit fear of some sort of retribution on some level, or some sort of detrimental change to the status quo if the acts of appeasement are not implemented. There has been a lack of courageous leadership that is plain for all to see on this issue in many cases as the protests, complaints and opinions of the masses have often fallen on deaf ears.

Let's look at a few good examples...

1. In Ireland the Irish Government compromises its neutrality by allowing military flights through Shannon and refuses to even search military and CIA flights for evidence of rendition or prisoner transit despite increasing evidence to suggest such activity is taking place, repeated calls from Amnesty International and huge protests on the streets by Irish citizens.

Was there a threat of violence or any other detrimental activity against Ireland? No? No appeasement.

Our country is terrified of annoying the US government because of the high level of investment in this country from US companies, particularly computer companies that provide an awful lot of jobs. Just look at what happened to the image of all things French in the US after they refused to endorse the Iraq war...'French fries' became 'freedom fries' and a lot of people stopped buying French products (my friend, who is a barman in Manhattan, said not only was there a noticeable drop in the sales of French drinks but that anyone who was heard ordering a French drink was often given a hard time by other customers in the bar). Of course no politician is going to come out and say this so you can keep telling yourself we're not being held to ransom.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

2. The International community fail to take any action against the US despite it leading a preemptive war on a sovereign nation without the provision of a UN mandate, potentially opening the door for anyone who wants to launch a war without general International consensus.

Only if you consider 17 UN resolutions "without the provision of a UN mandate".

The US had its own interpretation of resolution 1441 and acted without a satisfactory consensus among the International community to invade a country in search of WMD's that never existed on the scale that the US had claimed.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

3. Turkey allow the US to launch operations on Iraq from their region despite strong domestic and International opposition and the inherent risks to stability along their own Southern border, not to mention the negative financial impact the first Gulf war had on their own economy.

Funny...I remember the Turks saying no to the 4 ID, and the overall plan having to be re-worked due to no northern front. As well as Turkey denying overflight rights multiple times, and only authorizing non-combat aircraft to operate from air bases in Turkey.

I'm surprised they allowed anything to take place in their region that might build towards another Gulf war considering the last war cost their economy billions.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

4. Countries like Colombia and Panama allow the US military to interfere in a military capacity within the region.

Is that appeasement? Was there a threat levied against either country? Or was it countries cooperating, in line with their pre-existing national interests?

Well let's see Hugo Chavez gets elected to power and the minute he starts putting his own countries interests above US interests he is almost toppled by a US backed coup...Salvador Allende was deposed in a US led coup in Chile (resulting in the murderous reign of Pinochet) and Castro had to survive the Bay of Pigs invasion...yeah, there are never any threats made towards central and South American leaders.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

5. Several countries in Eastern Europe consider allowing the US to install a missile system in their regions despite strong opposition both domestically and Internationally and despite the obvious tensions that such a thing will create with Russia.

Again...where was the threat against those Eastern European countries from the US? Oh...there wasn't? No appeasement.

No explicit threat but the location of such a missile system makes our backyard a potential US battlefield...so yet again Europe has to bend over and take one for the team in the name of American interests.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

6. Several incidents have been discovered of people being kidnapped in various countries in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East and being taken for 'rendition' (torture) by US agencies and yet no Government is coming out complaining of such an undermining of sovereignty.

See above...what threat was being appeased? And there were several countries' governments that complained...that's how everyone learned about it.

Well I hope they keep complaining and I hope the US one day learns to respect International boundaries in this regard.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

7. The International community turns a continual blind eye to allegations of torture and human rights abuse by the US in Guantanamo bay and elsewhere and yet jump immediately to condemn questionable figures who are in charge of third world nations.

Could be because no allegations have ever been substantiated, despite numerous investigations, both internal or external. Oh, that's right...it's always "guilty until proven innocent" when dealing with allegations against the US, never the other way.

It helps when you put gagging orders on some of the people being released (got something to hide?), I'm sure they just play chess all day and watch Deadliest Catch.

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

My question is when is this appeasement going to stop. Discuss.

In order for it to stop, it has to first start.

It's much more apparent to me than the supposed Islamic appeasement that I always hear about.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-04-16 10:06:16)

As far as the Turkey bit goes, it's absolutely wrong, Unlike many countries Turkey went with the opinion of the majority (90%) of the populace and refused to co-operate inthe Iraq invasion.

Wolfowitz sent this 'interesting' mesage to the Turkish people as a response.
"Lets have a Turkey that steps up and says we made a mistake. We should have known how bad things were in Iraq but we know now. Let’s figure out how we can be as helpful as possible to the Americans." That'll help the popularity...

He then went on to complain that the military hadn't used it's power to overrule the will of the vast majority of the populace in a fairly staggering example of contempt for democracy.

PureFodder wrote:

As far as the Turkey bit goes, it's absolutely wrong, Unlike many countries Turkey went with the opinion of the majority (90%) of the populace and refused to co-operate in the Iraq invasion.

Wolfowitz sent this 'interesting' mesage to the Turkish people as a response.
"Lets have a Turkey that steps up and says we made a mistake. We should have known how bad things were in Iraq but we know now. Let’s figure out how we can be as helpful as possible to the Americans." That'll help the popularity...

He then went on to complain that the military hadn't used it's power to overrule the will of the vast majority of the populace in a fairly staggering example of contempt for democracy.

He complained because we had just spent $1 billion in cash bribing those voting officers (high-rank Turkish military officers get a vote in their parliament - some "democracy") and an aid package of $7 or 8 billion.  We ponied up the cash, thinking the votes we bought would be enough to tip the scales.  It turns out a few of the guys we bribed didn't vote our way, so the vote was juuuuust close enough not to allow 1 ID to get off the boat in Iskanderun.  Not sure if the Turks ever got the aid package, probably not.  I know some generals that got very rich though.

Braddock wrote:

I've noticed an alarming increase in the frequency of acts of appeasement in the global community recently. More often than not these acts have been allowed to happen because of an implicit fear of some sort of retribution on some level, or some sort of detrimental change to the status quo if the acts of appeasement are not implemented. There has been a lack of courageous leadership that is plain for all to see on this issue in many cases as the protests, complaints and opinions of the masses have often fallen on deaf ears.

Let's look at a few good examples...

1. In Ireland the Irish Government compromises its neutrality by allowing military flights through Shannon and refuses to even search military and CIA flights for evidence of rendition or prisoner transit despite increasing evidence to suggest such activity is taking place, repeated calls from Amnesty International and huge protests on the streets by Irish citizens.

2. The International community fail to take any action against the US despite it leading a preemptive war on a sovereign nation without the provision of a UN mandate, potentially opening the door for anyone who wants to launch a war without general International consensus.

3. Countries like Colombia and Panama allow the US military to interfere in a military capacity within the region.

4. Several countries in Eastern Europe consider allowing the US to install a missile system in their regions despite strong opposition both domestically and Internationally and despite the obvious tensions that such a thing will create with Russia.

5. Several incidents have been discovered of people being kidnapped in various countries in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East and being taken for 'rendition' (torture) by US agencies and yet no Government is coming out complaining of such an undermining of sovereignty.

6. The International community turns a continual blind eye to allegations of torture and human rights abuse by the US in Guantanamo bay and elsewhere and yet jump immediately to condemn questionable figures who are in charge of third world nations.

My question is when is this appeasement going to stop. Discuss.

1) This doesn't happen anywhere else...only US flights of course.........NOT!!!

2) Only the US has EVER taken preemptive action......NOT!!!

3) How stupid of me...of course this doesn't happen anywhere else except where the US is involved....NOT!!!

4) Only these countries have ever allowed another country to install or think of installing missiles....NOT!!!

5) This never happens, ONLY the US does it......NOT!!!

6) No one tortures anyone except the US....NOT!!!

Every example you put up here is only part of the big picture. There are many other countries doing questionable things (torture, trading and installing military and missile tech, kidnapping, murder, war- preemptive or not) and actually doing things far worse than some of the things you mentioned above. It is funny how the focus seems to always fit the US and how bad we are. Seriously, people need to stop driving through tunnels and widen their vision a little bit. There are many countries far more corrupt than the US. Every single thing you mentioned could easily fit other countries and its happening all over.

Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2008-04-16 16:43:02)

DeathbecomesYou wrote:

1) This doesn't happen anywhere else...only US flights of course.........NOT!!!

2) Only the US has EVER taken preemptive action......NOT!!!

3) How stupid of me...of course this doesn't happen anywhere else except where the US is involved....NOT!!!

4) Only these countries have ever allowed another country to install or think of installing missiles....NOT!!!

5) This never happens, ONLY the US does it......NOT!!!

6) No one tortures anyone except the US....NOT!!!

Every example you put up here is only part of the big picture. There are many other countries doing questionable things (torture, trading and installing military and missile tech, kidnapping, murder, war- preemptive or not) and actually doing things far worse than some of the things you mentioned above. It is funny how the focus seems to always fit the US and how bad we are. Seriously, people need to stop driving through tunnels and widen their vision a little bit. There are many countries far more corrupt than the US. Every single thing you mentioned could easily fit other countries and its happening all over.

well, how about you name a current, post cold war, western superpower allegedly fighting for freedom and democracy which has engaged in these activities on the scale the US have ?
The issue is not that there aren't any other nations doing this. We all know there are. But those are rogue states or facist/communist regimes, dictatorships, and the like.

The US, however, claims to be different. And that's why we expect better from them.

my 2c.

@OP:
most of that is not appeasement. Mostly diplomatic pressure, or economic pressure. US tax doallars pouring into the nations that co-operate could also be a reason...

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

1) This doesn't happen anywhere else...only US flights of course.........NOT!!!

2) Only the US has EVER taken preemptive action......NOT!!!

3) How stupid of me...of course this doesn't happen anywhere else except where the US is involved....NOT!!!

4) Only these countries have ever allowed another country to install or think of installing missiles....NOT!!!

5) This never happens, ONLY the US does it......NOT!!!

6) No one tortures anyone except the US....NOT!!!

Every example you put up here is only part of the big picture. There are many other countries doing questionable things (torture, trading and installing military and missile tech, kidnapping, murder, war- preemptive or not) and actually doing things far worse than some of the things you mentioned above. It is funny how the focus seems to always fit the US and how bad we are. Seriously, people need to stop driving through tunnels and widen their vision a little bit. There are many countries far more corrupt than the US. Every single thing you mentioned could easily fit other countries and its happening all over.

Your only defence here appears to be that loads of other countries do the same things too? This is no doubt true but as B.Schuss points out these other countries are countries of ill repute (so to speak), countries that are either on the so called 'axis of evil' or countries that the likes of the US like to point their finger at for such questionable activity. Now I'll admit that the OP is a satirical exaggeration and the points listed are merely indicative of the reality of International dealings but they are no better or worse than the bullshit accusations of appeasement being leveled at us here in Europe in relation to Islam by the US media and by other circles.

We compromise our morality, neutrality and even sovereignty in a variety of ways bending to US will, much more than we compromise ourselves in the name of Islam.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-04-17 03:17:49)

We have:

R O G U E = Outlaw, WoW character class

and then we have:

R O U G E = Red, shade of red, red make-up.

Sorry, I've just seen it so many times it really is starting to chafe.  Not really trying to pick on Lowing this time, just anyone that gets their French mixed up.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Could be because no allegations have ever been substantiated, despite numerous investigations, both internal or external. Oh, that's right...it's always "guilty until proven innocent" when dealing with allegations against the US, never the other way.

Uh remember the PHOTOS from Abu Ghraib, the CIA ADMITTING waterboarding? The deaths in Afghan prisons?

I believe the post was referencing rendition flights and Gitmo specifically.
Remember the prosecutions for Abu Ghraib (humiliation is not torture, btw)? Remember the prosecutions for the Afghan prison deaths?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Again...where was the threat against those Eastern European countries from the US? Oh...there wasn't? No appeasement.

Installing missile systems in Europe is in contravention of various arms treaties. Russia has now stated those countries will be the first targets.
Giving in to US demands and placing your own population at direct risk is appeasement.

There are not and have not been any "US demands" to the Czech or Polish governments. So, again...no appeasement. Poland and the Czech Republic have requested those sites be placed in their countries, the US isn't forcing it on anyone.