Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7025|132 and Bush

Ralph Peters - 12 Myths of 21st Century War

By Ralph Peters


Myth No. 1: War doesn’t change anything.

This campus slogan contradicts all of human history. Over thousands of years, war has been the last resort - and all too frequently the first resort - of tribes, religions, dynasties, empires, states and demagogues driven by grievance, greed or a heartless quest for glory. No one believes that war is a good thing, but it is sometimes necessary. We need not agree in our politics or on the manner in which a given war is prosecuted, but we can’t pretend that if only we laid down our arms all others would do the same.

Wars, in fact, often change everything. Who would argue that the American Revolution, our Civil War or World War II changed nothing? Would the world be better today if we had been pacifists in the face of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan?

Certainly, not all of the changes warfare has wrought through the centuries have been positive. Even a just war may generate undesirable results, such as Soviet tyranny over half of Europe after 1945. But of one thing we may be certain: a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization. Our enemies believe that war can change the world. And they won’t be deterred by bumper stickers.

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.
https://i25.tinypic.com/dnhum0.png
Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don’t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

And you can’t win if you won’t fight. We’re at the start of a violent struggle that will ebb and flow for decades, yet our current generation of leaders, in and out of uniform, worries about hurting the enemy’s feelings.

One of the tragedies of our involvement in Iraq is that while we did a great thing by removing Saddam Hussein, we tried to do it on the cheap. It’s an iron law of warfare that those unwilling to pay the butcher’s bill up front will pay it with compound interest in the end. We not only didn’t want to pay that bill, but our leaders imagined that we could make friends with our enemies even before they were fully defeated. Killing a few hundred violent actors like Moqtada al-Sadr in 2003 would have prevented thousands of subsequent American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. We started something our national leadership lacked the guts to finish.

Despite our missteps, victory looked a great deal less likely in the early months of 1942 than it does against our enemies today. Should we have surrendered after the fall of the Philippines? Today’s opinionmakers and elected officials have lost their grip on what it takes to win. In the timeless words of Nathan Bedford Forrest, “War means fighting, and fighting means killing.”

And in the words of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, “It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.”

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

Myth No. 4: There’s no military solution; only negotiations can solve our problems.
https://i31.tinypic.com/w7n62u.png
In most cases, the reverse is true. Negotiations solve nothing until a military decision has been reached and one side recognizes a peace agreement as its only hope of survival. It would be a welcome development if negotiations fixed the problems we face in Iraq, but we’re the only side interested in a negotiated solution. Every other faction - the terrorists, Sunni insurgents, Shia militias, Iran and Syria - is convinced it can win.

The only negotiations that produce lasting results are those conducted from positions of indisputable strength.

Myth No. 5: When we fight back, we only provoke our enemies.
https://i26.tinypic.com/33cnfc4.png
When dealing with bullies, either in the schoolyard or in a global war, the opposite is true: if you don’t fight back, you encourage your enemy to behave more viciously.

Passive resistance only works when directed against rule-of-law states, such as the core English-speaking nations. It doesn’t work where silent protest is answered with a bayonet in the belly or a one-way trip to a political prison. We’ve allowed far too many myths about the “innate goodness of humanity” to creep up on us. Certainly, many humans would rather be good than bad. But if we’re unwilling to fight the fraction of humanity that’s evil, armed and determined to subjugate the rest, we’ll face even grimmer conflicts.

Myth No. 6: Killing terrorists only turns them into martyrs.
https://i25.tinypic.com/5ukdid.jpg


It’s an anomaly of today’s Western world that privileged individuals feel more sympathy for dictators, mass murderers and terrorists - consider the irrational protests against Guantanamo - than they do for their victims. We were told, over and over, that killing Osama bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, hanging Saddam Hussein or targeting the Taliban’s Mullah Omar would only unite their followers. Well, we haven’t yet gotten Osama or Omar, but Zarqawi’s dead and forgotten by his own movement, whose members never invoke that butcher’s memory. And no one is fighting to avenge Saddam. The harsh truth is that when faced with true fanatics, killing them is the only way to end their influence. Imprisoned, they galvanize protests, kidnappings, bombings and attacks that seek to free them. Want to make a terrorist a martyr? Just lock him up. Attempts to try such monsters in a court of law turn into mockeries that only provide public platforms for their hate speech, which the global media is delighted to broadcast. Dead, they’re dead. And killing them is the ultimate proof that they lack divine protection. Dead terrorists don’t kill.

Myth No. 7: If we fight as fiercely as our enemies, we’re no better than them.

Did the bombing campaign against Germany turn us into Nazis? Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?

The greatest immorality is for the United States to lose a war. While we seek to be as humane as the path to victory permits, we cannot shrink from doing what it takes to win. At present, the media and influential elements of our society are obsessed with the small immoralities that are inevitable in wartime. Soldiers are human, and no matter how rigorous their training, a miniscule fraction of our troops will do vicious things and must be punished as a consequence. Not everyone in uniform will turn out to be a saint, and not every chain of command will do its job with equal effectiveness. But obsessing on tragic incidents - of which there have been remarkably few in Iraq or Afghanistan - obscures the greater moral issue: the need to defeat enemies who revel in butchering the innocent, who celebrate atrocities, and who claim their god wants blood.

Myth No. 8: The United States is more hated today than ever before.
https://i30.tinypic.com/wqom4g.png
Those who served in Europe during the Cold War remember enormous, often-violent protests against U.S. policy that dwarfed today’s let’s-have-fun-on-a-Sunday-afternoon rallies. Older readers recall the huge ban-the-bomb, pro-communist demonstrations of the 1950s and the vast seas of demonstrators filling the streets of Paris, Rome and Berlin to protest our commitment to Vietnam. Imagine if we’d had 24/7 news coverage of those rallies. I well remember serving in Germany in the wake of our withdrawal from Saigon, when U.S. soldiers were despised by the locals - who nonetheless were willing to take our money - and terrorists tried to assassinate U.S. generals.

The fashionable anti-Americanism of the chattering classes hasn’t stopped the world from seeking one big green card. As I’ve traveled around the globe since 9/11, I’ve found that below the government-spokesman/professional-radical level, the United States remains the great dream for university graduates from Berlin to Bangalore to Bogota.

On the domestic front, we hear ludicrous claims that our country has never been so divided. Well, that leaves out our Civil War. Our historical amnesia also erases the violent protests of the late 1960s and early 1970s, the mass confrontations, rioting and deaths. Is today’s America really more fractured than it was in 1968?

Myth No. 9: Our invasion of Iraq created our terrorist problems.

This claim rearranges the order of events, as if the attacks of 9/11 happened after Baghdad fell. Our terrorist problems have been created by the catastrophic failure of Middle Eastern civilization to compete on any front and were exacerbated by the determination of successive U.S. administrations, Democrat and Republican, to pretend that Islamist terrorism was a brief aberration. Refusing to respond to attacks, from the bombings in Beirut to Khobar Towers, from the first attack on the Twin Towers to the near-sinking of the USS Cole, we allowed our enemies to believe that we were weak and cowardly. Their unchallenged successes served as a powerful recruiting tool.

Did our mistakes on the ground in Iraq radicalize some new recruits for terror? Yes. But imagine how many more recruits there might have been and the damage they might have inflicted on our homeland had we not responded militarily in Afghanistan and then carried the fight to Iraq. Now Iraq is al-Qaeda’s Vietnam, not ours.

Myth No. 10: If we just leave, the Iraqis will patch up their differences on their own.

The point may come at which we have to accept that Iraqis are so determined to destroy their own future that there’s nothing more we can do. But we’re not there yet, and leaving immediately would guarantee not just one massacre but a series of slaughters and the delivery of a massive victory to the forces of terrorism. We must be open-minded about practical measures, from changes in strategy to troop reductions, if that’s what the developing situation warrants. But it’s grossly irresponsible to claim that our presence is the primary cause of the violence in Iraq - an allegation that ignores history.

Myth No. 11: It’s all Israel’s fault. Or the popular Washington corollary: “The Saudis are our friends.”

Israel is the Muslim world’s excuse for failure, not a reason for it. Even if we didn’t support Israel, Islamist extremists would blame us for countless other imagined wrongs, since they fear our freedoms and our culture even more than they do our military. All men and women of conscience must recognize the core difference between Israel and its neighbors: Israel genuinely wants to live in peace, while its genocidal neighbors want Israel erased from the map.

As for the mad belief that the Saudis are our friends, it endures only because the Saudis have spent so much money on both sides of the aisle in Washington. Saudi money continues to subsidize anti-Western extremism, to divide fragile societies, and encourage hatred between Muslims and all others. Saudi extremism has done far more damage to the Middle East than Israel ever did. The Saudis are our enemies.

Myth No. 12: The Middle East’s problems are all America’s fault.
https://i31.tinypic.com/17po2a.png
Muslim extremists would like everyone to believe this, but it just isn’t true. The collapse of once great Middle Eastern civilizations has been under way for more than five centuries, and the region became a backwater before the United States became a country. For the first century and a half of our national existence, our relations with the people of the Middle East were largely beneficent and protective, notwithstanding our conflict with the Barbary Pirates in North Africa. But Islamic civilization was on a downward trajectory that could not be arrested. Its social and economic structures, its values, its neglect of education, its lack of scientific curiosity, the indolence of its ruling classes and its inability to produce a single modern state that served its people all guaranteed that, as the West’s progress accelerated, the Middle East would fall ever farther behind. The Middle East has itself to blame for its problems.

None of us knows what our strategic future holds, but we have no excuse for not knowing our own past. We need to challenge inaccurate assertions about our policies, about our past and about war itself. And we need to work within our community and state education systems to return balanced, comprehensive history programs to our schools. The unprecedented wealth and power of the United States allows us to afford many things denied to human beings throughout history. But we, the people, cannot afford ignorance.

Discuss.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6748|New Haven, CT
I agree with everything.


However, it forgot truth #1.

People are sheep.

So many of these myths are perpetuated by the media and popular opinion effecting people either too lazy or too stupid to think about it. Unfortunately, this demographic comprises the majority of Americans. Seriously, each of this myths could be compiled into a category "General Traits of American Popular Defeatism."

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2008-04-20 19:30:50)

Ollie
Formerly known as Larkin
+215|6409|Halifax, West Yorkshire
God bless America.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6871|Chicago, IL
/agree
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6835|'Murka

I'm sure someone here will find argument with those...but I sure don't.

Excellent post, KM.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7266|Cologne, Germany

I agree with almost everything, except for this:

Ralph Peters wrote:

Now Iraq is al-Qaeda’s Vietnam, not ours.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6710
seriously?

Last edited by PureFodder (2008-04-21 02:35:28)

Wallpaper
+303|6418|The pool
Agreed 110%
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980
I can see a whole plethora of holes in his arguments, which I will address later. He should have caveated all of his rather simplistic statements. Might I add that this guy came up with the proposal that Saudi Arabia, in a remapped middle east, should be renamed so that it would have the acronym S.H.I.T.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-21 02:47:18)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7074

The only thing in there I think that I agree with 100% is the bit about 'The Saudis are our friends'.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7266|Cologne, Germany

PureFodder wrote:

seriously?
was that directed at me ?

if it was, yes, seriously. As Cam has said, the arguments are rather simplistic, but there is some truth in it.

However, the problem Peters always has and always will have is that he argues from a mostly military point of view.
And if you have the US military machine at hand, most conventional conflicts, if fought mercilessly, will be won easily.

The problem is, that just isn't possible any longer, in today's world. These days, the real problems start once the war has been "won"...
oh well, maybe Ralph really does believe what he writes, in his little black and white world...

ah, damn it, I just can't bring myself to accept this bullshit as fact....

honestly, I guess I am beginning to grow tired from answering these kinds of posts one by one. luckily, we have others to pick up on that.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6798|Kyiv, Ukraine
This article is nothing short of intellectually disingenuous, but we can go through the points 1 by 1.  The author does a good job in linking 2 completely unrelated thesis in each paragraph...on the one hand explaining the historical truths behind the impact of war, on the other extolling the virtues of the underlying assumption that every foreign policy pursued by the USofA was good and right regardless of the context.  This is a great example of right-wing teletubby philosophy, where all looks valid on the surface, but peeling back just one layer reveals some fundamental flaws in the arguement.

Kmarion wrote:

Ralph Peters - 12 Myths of 21st Century War
By Ralph Peters
Myth No. 1: War doesn’t change anything.
...But of one thing we may be certain: a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization. Our enemies believe that war can change the world. And they won’t be deterred by bumper stickers.
While everything said up until this point was a philosophical "truth", which can be debated on its own merits, it is a fairly bulletproof statement that wars indeed can "change things".  It ignores though the deeper roots of the "war doesn't change anything" arguement, which is basically "war will not change mankind, we will always be greedy or power-hungry or territorial".  War doesn't change this.

The statement though I left quoted highlights an entirely different arguement which the author has chosen to link to his first.  The underlying assumption that America is a "bastion of freedom" and the sole source of democratic values in the world.  While in a Walt Disney version of recent history this may be true, fundamentally it has not been for a long time.  Our ideals, as laid out in the Constitution, have been on a downward slope since as far back as the creation of the central banking system.  Our economic well-being has ALWAYS been at the forefront of our foreign policy, not our altruistic desire to spread good cheer and love and democracy around the world.

It further infers a distinction that there is possible in every situation "victory" and "defeat".  This is not even a world painted in comic book colors, this is "black and white".

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.
http://i25.tinypic.com/dnhum0.png
Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don’t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.
Unfortunately for the author, I have yet to see anything of the sort.  It sounds like good rhetoric, but the basic idea is that this is not true.  The only apologies I've seen are admissions of regrettable actions in gang-rapes of small girls, blatant massacres perpetuated by our hired mercenaries, or when they're setting up the little guys on the food chain to take the fall for inhuman torture policy.  I've never heard of lawyers approving targets for any kind of strike.  The "negativity" in the media is just a farcical statement, proven demonstrably false.  Once in a while the truth slips through that war is a dirty business, the rest of the time all we get is cheerleading on the home front, which no news network has been immune.

And you can’t win if you won’t fight. We’re at the start of a violent struggle that will ebb and flow for decades, yet our current generation of leaders, in and out of uniform, worries about hurting the enemy’s feelings.

One of the tragedies of our involvement in Iraq is that while we did a great thing by removing Saddam Hussein, we tried to do it on the cheap. It’s an iron law of warfare that those unwilling to pay the butcher’s bill up front will pay it with compound interest in the end. We not only didn’t want to pay that bill, but our leaders imagined that we could make friends with our enemies even before they were fully defeated. Killing a few hundred violent actors like Moqtada al-Sadr in 2003 would have prevented thousands of subsequent American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. We started something our national leadership lacked the guts to finish.
It can also be argued that not going to war in the first place would have saved 100,000's casualties.  Saddam was contained, his own command staff thought he was a joke, and we knew he had no functioning weapons programs or stockpiles.  His torture program, arguably, was actually smaller at the start of OIF in 2003/4 than America's today.  Also, per capita, we've spent more money per dead Iraqi in this war than any war previously, even topping the $110,000 ($300,000+ in today's dollars) per dead Viet Cong.

...In the timeless words of Nathan Bedford Forrest, “War means fighting, and fighting means killing.”
This is where the author's true colors start to peak through...quoting the founder of the Ku Klux Klan.  Arguably the quote is good, but if he's trying to garner sympathy for his own hawkishness, this isn't the road to take.

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

...We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.
This is where the author shows his ignorance of historical context.  We haven't "always been at war with Eastasia".  The roots of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism actually rest on America's long-standing foreign policy of replacing any socialist or left-leaning democratic movements in the Middle East with brutal totalitarianism.  The rise or shift to Islamic focus for these groups in the late 70's was preceded by almost 30 years of such foreign policy.  A similar trend can be seen in South America, though religion did not become a uniting principle, as there wasn't much of a base for this - leftist sympathies still reign supreme.

Myth No. 4: There’s no military solution; only negotiations can solve our problems.
http://i31.tinypic.com/w7n62u.png
In most cases, the reverse is true. Negotiations solve nothing until a military decision has been reached and one side recognizes a peace ...

*Big snip*
...
None of us knows what our strategic future holds, but we have no excuse for not knowing our own past. We need to challenge inaccurate assertions about our policies, about our past and about war itself. And we need to work within our community and state education systems to return balanced, comprehensive history programs to our schools. The unprecedented wealth and power of the United States allows us to afford many things denied to human beings throughout history. But we, the people, cannot afford ignorance.
Discuss.
I'll just skip to the end, sorry that I ran short of time to pick apart the whole article. (Maybe Cam can pick up)

The last paragraph is a doozy though, irony at its finest, or perhaps a good example of authoritarian compartmentalization or conservative cognitive dissonance.  Of course I agree 100% with his assertions that we need to challenge innaccurate assertions about our own policies.  As well, a thorough and comprehensive review of our own modern history, as basically we did no wrong before 1946, and did nothing much afterwards according to the Disney view of American history.  Basically, this countermands almost his entire "mythbusting" in the preceding sections.  You cannot pick and choose if you want to give a history of American imperialism, you have to face it honestly.  The hard truth is that of the "unprecedented wealth and power of the United States" came at the expense of a large proportion of the rest of the world.  The US is by no means the only guilty party or even the most "guilty" if we are arguing moral relativity instead of general principle - French, Belgian, Spanish, Portuguese, and British imperialism is far older and in some cases more developed.  However, even these countries have matured and recognized the fact that they don't call all the shots in the world.  They retain some sense of humility.

The underlying principle in this entire article is "America owns the world, and should be able to do what it wants.  Might makes right."  Its a not-very-clever rehash of the realpolitik principle, and not much more than an ultra-nationalist screed (accusing the y2000 crop of neo-cons of being pussies?).

How dare the little brown heathens try to stop us - don't they know their place is to ensure we retain our "unprecedented wealth and power"?

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2008-04-21 03:16:27)

Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6967|Outer Space

Ralph Peters wrote:

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.
http://i25.tinypic.com/dnhum0.png
Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don’t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.
Well, there's two way to go about this. Call it bringing democracy to the Middle East, and do it like you do it now. Or start tying the insurgents to the cannon mouths and blow them up, level an entire city if an IED goes off, and simply call it Empire building.

Maybe the current ROE is in fact too restrictive, I wouldn't know. But the way the article is written, I think Peters would like to have the second option.

Ralph Peters wrote:

Myth No. 6: Killing terrorists only turns them into martyrs.
http://i25.tinypic.com/5ukdid.jpg


It’s an anomaly of today’s Western world that privileged individuals feel more sympathy for dictators, mass murderers and terrorists - consider the irrational protests against Guantanamo - than they do for their victims. We were told, over and over, that killing Osama bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, hanging Saddam Hussein or targeting the Taliban’s Mullah Omar would only unite their followers. Well, we haven’t yet gotten Osama or Omar, but Zarqawi’s dead and forgotten by his own movement, whose members never invoke that butcher’s memory. And no one is fighting to avenge Saddam. The harsh truth is that when faced with true fanatics, killing them is the only way to end their influence. Imprisoned, they galvanize protests, kidnappings, bombings and attacks that seek to free them. Want to make a terrorist a martyr? Just lock him up. Attempts to try such monsters in a court of law turn into mockeries that only provide public platforms for their hate speech, which the global media is delighted to broadcast. Dead, they’re dead. And killing them is the ultimate proof that they lack divine protection. Dead terrorists don’t kill.
Well, I don't think anyone here has any sympathy for the terrorists. But it strikes me, that the US isn't very thorough in checking if the person they have is really a terrorist. And while I'm sure while US would be happier if he were dead, I think he may hold a different opinion. And while I'm also sure it would be more pleasing to the administration if no one protested, I don't recall the person I mentioned getting any compensation for his troubles? Out of sight, out of mind?

Ralph Peters wrote:

Myth No. 7: If we fight as fiercely as our enemies, we’re no better than them.

Did the bombing campaign against Germany turn us into Nazis? Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?

The greatest immorality is for the United States to lose a war. While we seek to be as humane as the path to victory permits, we cannot shrink from doing what it takes to win. At present, the media and influential elements of our society are obsessed with the small immoralities that are inevitable in wartime. Soldiers are human, and no matter how rigorous their training, a miniscule fraction of our troops will do vicious things and must be punished as a consequence. Not everyone in uniform will turn out to be a saint, and not every chain of command will do its job with equal effectiveness. But obsessing on tragic incidents - of which there have been remarkably few in Iraq or Afghanistan - obscures the greater moral issue: the need to defeat enemies who revel in butchering the innocent, who celebrate atrocities, and who claim their god wants blood.
Wait, as humane as path to victory permits? So if the only way to win is to do what I suggested under the first quote, that's OK? I don't get it. If that's OK, why is he so upset with enemies reveling in butchering the innocent? Or does he think it's not actually an acceptable way of fighting the wars, and he's just full of shit?

Ralph Peters wrote:

Did our mistakes on the ground in Iraq radicalize some new recruits for terror? Yes. But imagine how many more recruits there might have been and the damage they might have inflicted on our homeland had we not responded militarily in Afghanistan and then carried the fight to Iraq. Now Iraq is al-Qaeda’s Vietnam, not ours.
Carried the fight to Iraq? Sorry, what? What exactly did Iraq have to do with 9/11? US had worldwide support for Afghan campaign. My first reaction when they refused to hand over Osama was, time for some ass kicking, they don't do that and get away with it. And then the admin pulled Iraq. Needless to say, us Euros weren't too fucking thrilled about that. And you know what else? Some people now equate Iraq and Afghanistan, as if they were both unjustified. GG, a job well done.

Ralph Peters wrote:

as the West’s progress accelerated, the Middle East would fall ever farther behind. The Middle East has itself to blame for its problems.
Well, not quite. If I recall correctly, there were some imperial powers running all around the Middle East awhile ago, making a real mess of things.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6710

B.Schuss wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

seriously?
was that directed at me ?

if it was, yes, seriously. As Cam has said, the arguments are rather simplistic, but there is some truth in it.

However, the problem Peters always has and always will have is that he argues from a mostly military point of view.
And if you have the US military machine at hand, most conventional conflicts, if fought mercilessly, will be won easily.

The problem is, that just isn't possible any longer, in today's world. These days, the real problems start once the war has been "won"...
No it was directed at the crazy propaganda.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6835|'Murka

When you disagree with something, label it "propaganda"...got it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7182|Argentina
When the guy goes "a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization" any further reading is pointless.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7046|London, England
Fuck yeah. War. Jesus. White power and all that shit.
Aries_37
arrivederci frog
+368|7000|London
Another militant patriot in denial *yaawwwn*
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7191|UK
It have a LOT of holes to pick in that, but currently need to go to uni, ill do it later.

Well just for starters that guy pretty much implies that the Geneva convention should be thrown out the window and soldiers should be able to do anything to be able to win a war and yet he claims to have learnt from past wars. I call bullshit on this guy.

Last edited by Vilham (2008-04-21 04:27:31)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6710

FEOS wrote:

When you disagree with something, label it "propaganda"...got it.

sergeriver wrote:

When the guy goes "a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization" any further reading is pointless.
The one bit I do agree 100% with is this bit
None of us knows what our strategic future holds, but we have no excuse for not knowing our own past. We need to challenge inaccurate assertions about our policies, about our past and about war itself. And we need to work within our community and state education systems to return balanced, comprehensive history programs to our schools. The unprecedented wealth and power of the United States allows us to afford many things denied to human beings throughout history. But we, the people, cannot afford ignorance.
The bloke who wrote this should take his own advice.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6980

Ralph Peters wrote:

Myth No. 1: War doesn’t change anything.

a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization.
Mostly correct except for the emboldened text. Such an arrogant and short-sighted view demonstrates his inability to empathise with the rest of the world. His view is that 'our way is indisputably best'. Well frankly a great many people around the world would disagree with him on that point. The only thing that interests America and other western nations is preserving the status quo of maintaining their priviliged position as the global elite. The American concept of 'civilisation' differs quite a bit from the European concept for one. A world dictated by markets and money alone, increasingly free from very human considerations, is not a world I and many others want to live in. A world where wars are fought on false premises in the interests of energy security is not a world I want to live in. His use of the term freedom is absolutely ludicrous in the context of US support of dictatorial regimes and the fact the US have undermined democracy in several countries. In short, he's talking shit.

Ralph Peters wrote:

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.

And you can’t win if you won’t fight. We’re at the start of a violent struggle that will ebb and flow for decades, yet our current generation of leaders, in and out of uniform, worries about hurting the enemy’s feelings.

Killing a few hundred violent actors like Moqtada al-Sadr in 2003 would have prevented thousands of subsequent American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. We started something our national leadership lacked the guts to finish.
Here Ralph makes some rather silly comments. Victory is never impossible of course. But the Iraq war, a war of choice, is not a war of annihilation like WWII (a war of 'them or us'). To constantly hark back to WWII is just plain inappropriate. Yeah of course you could 'win the Iraq war' if you levelled every last mosque, house, school, nursery and hospital. But here's a newsflash Ralph: THIS AIN'T A WAR OF SURVIVAL. I know Ralph would love to live in a world where generals called the shots and public opinion meant nothing but guess what? REALITY feature such things as 'elections', 'public opinion' and 'doing the just and right thing'. The sooner he wakes up out of his general-run alternate reality the more rational his arguments will become.

And as for Moqtada Al Sadr: killing him would be like somebody killing a prominent US politician. Where's the 'freedom' in that? His boots will only be filled by someone of like mind. The sooner he faces up to the fact that people don't like the US for very real and legitimate reasons the better his understanding of the world will become.

I get the feeling Ralph would prefer it if he was a dictator or some throw-back to the colonial era where the king announces that every man, woman and child be slain and their land taken for the crown (probably worded as acting 'in the interests of the greater good'). He's totally oblivious to his own countries flaws.

I'll be back with comments on the others later.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-04-21 05:26:54)

oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6944|Πάϊ
Myth No. 1: War doesn’t change anything.
Depends on how you see it. In the long run, maybe it doesn't, but one could say the same about all things. Also each case differs imo.

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.
Those who say so obviously have a different understanding of "victory" that what was argued underneath. It's not about the troops and what their orders are. It's about the aftermath of a successful military invasion.

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.
The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.
which takes away the victory in the end (as said above)


Myth No. 4: There’s no military solution; only negotiations can solve our problems.
It would be a welcome development if negotiations fixed the problems we face in Iraq, but we’re the only side interested in a negotiated solution. Every other faction - the terrorists, Sunni insurgents, Shia militias, Iran and Syria - is convinced it can win.
What a bunch of biased bullshit. Not that they are not expected in a time of war, but that doesn't mean we are idiots ffs
The only negotiations that produce lasting results are those conducted from positions of indisputable strength.
true that

Myth No. 5: When we fight back, we only provoke our enemies.
Passive resistance only works when directed against rule-of-law states, such as the core English-speaking nations. It doesn’t work where silent protest is answered with a bayonet in the belly or a one-way trip to a political prison. We’ve allowed far too many myths about the “innate goodness of humanity” to creep up on us. Certainly, many humans would rather be good than bad. But if we’re unwilling to fight the fraction of humanity that’s evil, armed and determined to subjugate the rest, we’ll face even grimmer conflicts.
more core English-speaking BS


Myth No. 6: Killing terrorists only turns them into martyrs.

rant
Ok I started out to answer this post seriously, but it seems it was meant to provoke so I'll just let it slide along with the rest of the bull


Myth No. 7: If we fight as fiercely as our enemies, we’re no better than them.
same here


Myth No. 8: The United States is more hated today than ever before.
No way of measuring hatred. BS continued
Is today’s America really more fractured than it was in 1968?
It's about the same imo lol

Myth No. 9: Our invasion of Iraq created our terrorist problems.
More like the general foreign policy regarding the ME. Part of which were both invasions of Iraq. Before AND after 9/11


Myth No. 10: If we just leave, the Iraqis will patch up their differences on their own.

No, they will not.


Myth No. 11: It’s all Israel’s fault. Or the popular Washington corollary: “The Saudis are our friends.”

Israel is the Muslim world’s excuse for failure, not a reason for it. Even if we didn’t support Israel, Islamist extremists would blame us for countless other imagined wrongs, since they fear our freedoms and our culture even more than they do our military. All men and women of conscience must recognize the core difference between Israel and its neighbors: Israel genuinely wants to live in peace, while its genocidal neighbors want Israel erased from the map.
Bullshit meter hits record highs on highlighted parts
The Saudis are our enemies.
Maybe this should have been the case. But...
https://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i4570_acodex771.JPG


Myth No. 12: The Middle East’s problems are all America’s fault.
A hilarious assertion. Of course not.
ƒ³
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7025|132 and Bush

Aries_37 wrote:

Another militant patriot in denial *yaawwwn*
Retired lieutenant Colonel who is extremely critical of this administration. I believe his main point is complacency. Pointing out all the mistakes made is hardly denial.
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Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7191|UK
I was going to write a couple paragraphs on why his opinion is stupid, but Cameron has already voiced my exact feelings on what he said.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7025|132 and Bush

Vilham wrote:

I was going to write a couple paragraphs on why his opinion is stupid, but Cameron has already voiced my exact feelings on what he said.

CameronPoe wrote:

I'll be back with comments on the others later.
I get the impression he is going to attack everything he said irregardless of having valid points. Cam is however the only one making any kind of reasonable argument in this thread though. The propaganda yada yada and one liners are (insert farting noise).

A little extra info on Peters, for all the claims of denial in this thread.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/11/post_6.html
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