meh, I'm a douche, you said that.Vilham wrote:
No the other option is Hamas stands down and lets the Palestinians lead the lives they want. Rather than having people like you blame Israel for every injustice in the conflict, when infact Hamas is the cause of most of the problems.sergeriver wrote:
I don't place the blame just on Israel. I just pointed out that Hamas, the extremists, "say" (this you can believe or not) they are ready to deal with Israel. I may be naive, but at least I want them to live in peace. The other option is war.Vilham wrote:
No but for one thing, im not naive to think the blame is only Israels. Nor am I naive enough to believe something Hamas says, unlike you appear to be.
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When I see Israeli and Palestinean children dancing in gardens and frolicing in the meadows in Jerusalem together, I'll believe it.
Until then, Hamas is never, ever going to let Israel exist, no matter what they say.
Until then, Hamas is never, ever going to let Israel exist, no matter what they say.
I highly doubt that Hamas will do anything of the sort. I really hope that they are put out of power. Kind of a devil's spiral here - Palestinians want strong leaders because they're oppressed. Their leaders send them into hell by terrorizing their oppressors. Their oppressors get angry and bulldoze more houses.
Frustrating, to say the least.
I call BS, serge. Hamas are fucking with us, like they're fucking with the Palestinian civilians. They're no better than the leaders of some African countries - they just want their share of the power.
-konfusion
Frustrating, to say the least.
I call BS, serge. Hamas are fucking with us, like they're fucking with the Palestinian civilians. They're no better than the leaders of some African countries - they just want their share of the power.
-konfusion
Hamas leaders are shit, but if this brings a peace deal...meanwhile Palestinians keep living in that shithole.konfusion wrote:
I highly doubt that Hamas will do anything of the sort. I really hope that they are put out of power. Kind of a devil's spiral here - Palestinians want strong leaders because they're oppressed. Their leaders send them into hell by terrorizing their oppressors. Their oppressors get angry and bulldoze more houses.
Frustrating, to say the least.
I call BS, serge. Hamas are fucking with us, like they're fucking with the Palestinian civilians. They're no better than the leaders of some African countries - they just want their share of the power.
-konfusion
You just can't trust the israeli government.
They are even betraying the good people of the West Bank by building more illegals settlement on their land.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080418/ap_ … tlements_2
Wow this is how israel say thanks to the good people of the west bank for renouncing violence. And remember, no rockets attack from the west bank. But they keep building illegals settlements in the West Bnk.
Even if Hamas renounce violence, israel will keep grabing land and will still target its leader.
They are even betraying the good people of the West Bank by building more illegals settlement on their land.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080418/ap_ … tlements_2
Wow this is how israel say thanks to the good people of the west bank for renouncing violence. And remember, no rockets attack from the west bank. But they keep building illegals settlements in the West Bnk.
Even if Hamas renounce violence, israel will keep grabing land and will still target its leader.
Brilliant counter... I think your post just proved what I said before. No answer to your pointless "hate Israel" threads so you just say nothing.sergeriver wrote:
meh, I'm a douche, you said that.Vilham wrote:
No the other option is Hamas stands down and lets the Palestinians lead the lives they want. Rather than having people like you blame Israel for every injustice in the conflict, when infact Hamas is the cause of most of the problems.sergeriver wrote:
I don't place the blame just on Israel. I just pointed out that Hamas, the extremists, "say" (this you can believe or not) they are ready to deal with Israel. I may be naive, but at least I want them to live in peace. The other option is war.
Where the fuck in my post says or is implied to hate Israel you twat? Condemning the violations to Human Rights of Israel doesn't mean I hate Israel, and what about your hate for Palestinians? Gimmie a break and STFU.Vilham wrote:
Brilliant counter... I think your post just proved what I said before. No answer to your pointless "hate Israel" threads so you just say nothing.sergeriver wrote:
meh, I'm a douche, you said that.Vilham wrote:
No the other option is Hamas stands down and lets the Palestinians lead the lives they want. Rather than having people like you blame Israel for every injustice in the conflict, when infact Hamas is the cause of most of the problems.
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-04-21 15:59:33)
They'll sign. Things will be fine for a couple of months, then Hamas will attack Israel, and when Israel retaliates, the whole world will condemn them.
Last edited by Deadmonkiefart (2008-04-21 15:21:17)
In some ways the problem is bigger than these two people. Religions and its people have been fighting over this land for thousands of years, so no matter who controls it, someone else will claim it.....and the cycle of violence will go round and round.Deadmonkiefart wrote:
They'll sign. Things will be fine for a couple of months, then Hamas will attack Israel, and when Israel retaliates, the whole world will condemn them.
Serge, violations occur on both sides. I see you condemn Israel here but fail to point out the violations that members of Hamas and Radicals using the plight of Palestinians to kill innocent people. Human rights belong to Israelis as well and when you have rockets being shot to your doorstep EVERY SINGLE DAY and you have organizations with charters bent on your distruction and when people walk into crowded civilian areas to blow themselves up....I do believe there are human rights violations there.sergeriver wrote:
Where the fuck in my post says or is implied to hate Israel you twat? Condemning the violations to Human Rights of Israel doesn't mean I hate Israel, and what about your hate for Palestinians? Gimmie a break and STFU.Vilham wrote:
Brilliant counter... I think your post just proved what I said before. No answer to your pointless "hate Israel" threads so you just say nothing.sergeriver wrote:
meh, I'm a douche, you said that.
Don't get me wrong, you have been more balanced recently (from what I have read), just please remember that blame here can easily and should be pointed at BOTH sides. Its like a bunch of kids in a playground yelling "He started it"...its ridiculous that people cant grow up and leaderships cant wake up and just do the right thing.
Hamas finally came out today and made stronger move towards a truce, but they need to back up their words with actions. Stop the rockets, stop the incursions, kidnap attempts and Israel will look stupid if it doesn't respond in kind. We will see.
Read all my posts about this war. I always condemn these Hamas assholes. I hit more on Israel coz Israel is a democratic country, and Hamas are a bunch of nutjobs. When Israel kills innocent Palestinians they behave just the same way the extremists they are fighting.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Serge, violations occur on both sides. I see you condemn Israel here but fail to point out the violations that members of Hamas and Radicals using the plight of Palestinians to kill innocent people. Human rights belong to Israelis as well and when you have rockets being shot to your doorstep EVERY SINGLE DAY and you have organizations with charters bent on your distruction and when people walk into crowded civilian areas to blow themselves up....I do believe there are human rights violations there.sergeriver wrote:
Where the fuck in my post says or is implied to hate Israel you twat? Condemning the violations to Human Rights of Israel doesn't mean I hate Israel, and what about your hate for Palestinians? Gimmie a break and STFU.Vilham wrote:
Brilliant counter... I think your post just proved what I said before. No answer to your pointless "hate Israel" threads so you just say nothing.
Don't get me wrong, you have been more balanced recently (from what I have read), just please remember that blame here can easily and should be pointed at BOTH sides. Its like a bunch of kids in a playground yelling "He started it"...its ridiculous that people cant grow up and leaderships cant wake up and just do the right thing.
Hamas finally came out today and made stronger move towards a truce, but they need to back up their words with actions. Stop the rockets, stop the incursions, kidnap attempts and Israel will look stupid if it doesn't respond in kind. We will see.
What I can't accept is Vilham lecturing me on anything while calling me a douche, just coz I don't agree with him. Or suggesting I'm an anti-Semite when I'm more a Jew than most people here. That doesn't contribute to the debate, hence my answer.
Of course Hamas violates human rights, but they are expected to do these things coz they are extremists. Israel should give the example, not take the same course of action than the militants. And the other thing that bothers me is the heavy handedness in Israel response. It's outrageous.
Hamas needs to stop the rocket throwing, but Israel needs to stop the settlements, the air strikes and then they can discuss peace. Until then it's nothing but words.
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-04-21 17:19:41)
All it would lead to is Bush or our next president holding hands with a Jew and an Arab for a photo op. Meanwhile, more of our money gets passed under the table.sergeriver wrote:
I think Hamas militants are nutjobs, but if the talks lead to a peace agreement why not? The other option is to continue with the mess the region is now.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Seriously, remember that this is Jimmy Carter....not a bad guy and tries to do the right things but is the last person to speak on behalf of Hamas or relay what they say. How many times has Hamas leadership cry for the wipe out of Israel, its part of their written statement and all of the sudden it is going to change because Jimmy Carter spoke to them? Be realistic.....its a ploy by Hamas and nothing more and Carter fell for it.sergeriver wrote:
Former US President Jimmy Carter has said that Hamas is prepared to accept the right of Israel to "live as a neighbour next door in peace".
Should Israel talk with Hamas or keep attacking Gaza?
Can anyone honestly say that Hamas would stop its actions if the borders were restored.....I just don't believe that at all. It would be a miracle.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-04-21 17:20:14)
Exactly, as you said....its no more than words....that is what Hamas is giving...just words. This is my opinion and I dont know if for sure, but I do believe if the rockets, incursions and kidnappings stopped that Israel would stop its heavy hand. Now, I am talking military action or retaliation. Hamas stops, then Israel will stop...I do believe that will happen.sergeriver wrote:
Read all my posts about this war. I always condemn these Hamas assholes. I hit more on Israel coz Israel is a democratic country, and Hamas are a bunch of nutjobs. When Israel kills innocent Palestinians they behave just the same way the extremists they are fighting.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Serge, violations occur on both sides. I see you condemn Israel here but fail to point out the violations that members of Hamas and Radicals using the plight of Palestinians to kill innocent people. Human rights belong to Israelis as well and when you have rockets being shot to your doorstep EVERY SINGLE DAY and you have organizations with charters bent on your distruction and when people walk into crowded civilian areas to blow themselves up....I do believe there are human rights violations there.sergeriver wrote:
Where the fuck in my post says or is implied to hate Israel you twat? Condemning the violations to Human Rights of Israel doesn't mean I hate Israel, and what about your hate for Palestinians? Gimmie a break and STFU.
Don't get me wrong, you have been more balanced recently (from what I have read), just please remember that blame here can easily and should be pointed at BOTH sides. Its like a bunch of kids in a playground yelling "He started it"...its ridiculous that people cant grow up and leaderships cant wake up and just do the right thing.
Hamas finally came out today and made stronger move towards a truce, but they need to back up their words with actions. Stop the rockets, stop the incursions, kidnap attempts and Israel will look stupid if it doesn't respond in kind. We will see.
What I can't accept is Vilham lecturing me on anything while calling me a douche, just coz I don't agree with him. Or suggesting I'm an anti-Semite when I'm more a Jew than most people here. That doesn't contribute to the debate, hence my answer.
Of course Hamas violates human rights, but they are expected to do these things coz they are extremists. Israel should give the example, not take the same course of action than the militants. And the other thing that bothers me is the heavy handedness in Israel response. It's outrageous.
Hamas needs to stop the rocket throwing, but Israel needs to stop the settlements, the air strikes and then they can discuss peace. Until then it's nothing but words.
On the other hand, Israel needs to show some initiative as well and stop its expansionism. All that does is create a reason for radicals to do what they love to do. The only problem I see is that even if Israel stopped it expansion, pulled back to the original borders, that Hamas and similar groups will continue their actions. I just don't see that happening...that is only my opinion....who really knows for sure.
Now I want to point this out...read the "Border Tensions" section.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 11786.aspx
Do you see that....Egypt is acting no different than Israel in a lot of ways. Egypt is ready and willing to force Palestinians to stay where they are even if deadly force needs to be used. Funny how no one is condemning Egypt for keeping Palestinians in their place. You see, Egypt knows that if they allow Palestinians to move into their area that they will essentially have the same issues. It is funny how a lot of Arab countries cry to the world that the world doesnt do enough and yet, when they have the chance, they will kill Palestinians to keep them out.
Doesn't that bother you, that fellow arabs that could really help diffuse the situation would rather kill to keep them out? Doesn't make any sense to me. You see, Israel in not the only blame here, ME countries could do a hell of a lot more than just words, threats and grand standing.
Why don't you think it otherwise. Israel keeps the settlements in the now peaceful and moderate West Bank. Why don't they pull back from there?DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Exactly, as you said....its no more than words....that is what Hamas is giving...just words. This is my opinion and I dont know if for sure, but I do believe if the rockets, incursions and kidnappings stopped that Israel would stop its heavy hand. Now, I am talking military action or retaliation. Hamas stops, then Israel will stop...I do believe that will happen.sergeriver wrote:
Read all my posts about this war. I always condemn these Hamas assholes. I hit more on Israel coz Israel is a democratic country, and Hamas are a bunch of nutjobs. When Israel kills innocent Palestinians they behave just the same way the extremists they are fighting.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Serge, violations occur on both sides. I see you condemn Israel here but fail to point out the violations that members of Hamas and Radicals using the plight of Palestinians to kill innocent people. Human rights belong to Israelis as well and when you have rockets being shot to your doorstep EVERY SINGLE DAY and you have organizations with charters bent on your distruction and when people walk into crowded civilian areas to blow themselves up....I do believe there are human rights violations there.
Don't get me wrong, you have been more balanced recently (from what I have read), just please remember that blame here can easily and should be pointed at BOTH sides. Its like a bunch of kids in a playground yelling "He started it"...its ridiculous that people cant grow up and leaderships cant wake up and just do the right thing.
Hamas finally came out today and made stronger move towards a truce, but they need to back up their words with actions. Stop the rockets, stop the incursions, kidnap attempts and Israel will look stupid if it doesn't respond in kind. We will see.
What I can't accept is Vilham lecturing me on anything while calling me a douche, just coz I don't agree with him. Or suggesting I'm an anti-Semite when I'm more a Jew than most people here. That doesn't contribute to the debate, hence my answer.
Of course Hamas violates human rights, but they are expected to do these things coz they are extremists. Israel should give the example, not take the same course of action than the militants. And the other thing that bothers me is the heavy handedness in Israel response. It's outrageous.
Hamas needs to stop the rocket throwing, but Israel needs to stop the settlements, the air strikes and then they can discuss peace. Until then it's nothing but words.
On the other hand, Israel needs to show some initiative as well and stop its expansionism. All that does is create a reason for radicals to do what they love to do. The only problem I see is that even if Israel stopped it expansion, pulled back to the original borders, that Hamas and similar groups will continue their actions. I just don't see that happening...that is only my opinion....who really knows for sure.
Now I want to point this out...read the "Border Tensions" section.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 11786.aspx
Do you see that....Egypt is acting no different than Israel in a lot of ways. Egypt is ready and willing to force Palestinians to stay where they are even if deadly force needs to be used. Funny how no one is condemning Egypt for keeping Palestinians in their place. You see, Egypt knows that if they allow Palestinians to move into their area that they will essentially have the same issues. It is funny how a lot of Arab countries cry to the world that the world doesnt do enough and yet, when they have the chance, they will kill Palestinians to keep them out.
Doesn't that bother you, that fellow arabs that could really help diffuse the situation would rather kill to keep them out? Doesn't make any sense to me. You see, Israel in not the only blame here, ME countries could do a hell of a lot more than just words, threats and grand standing.
You are right about the Arab countries, nobody gives a shit about Palestine and its people.
There's the two biggest problems. Israel and its expansions, Palestinians and its radical stance and actions. Somebody needs to step up...period.sergeriver wrote:
Why don't you think it otherwise. Israel keeps the settlements in the now peaceful and moderate West Bank. Why don't they pull back from there?DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Exactly, as you said....its no more than words....that is what Hamas is giving...just words. This is my opinion and I dont know if for sure, but I do believe if the rockets, incursions and kidnappings stopped that Israel would stop its heavy hand. Now, I am talking military action or retaliation. Hamas stops, then Israel will stop...I do believe that will happen.sergeriver wrote:
Read all my posts about this war. I always condemn these Hamas assholes. I hit more on Israel coz Israel is a democratic country, and Hamas are a bunch of nutjobs. When Israel kills innocent Palestinians they behave just the same way the extremists they are fighting.
What I can't accept is Vilham lecturing me on anything while calling me a douche, just coz I don't agree with him. Or suggesting I'm an anti-Semite when I'm more a Jew than most people here. That doesn't contribute to the debate, hence my answer.
Of course Hamas violates human rights, but they are expected to do these things coz they are extremists. Israel should give the example, not take the same course of action than the militants. And the other thing that bothers me is the heavy handedness in Israel response. It's outrageous.
Hamas needs to stop the rocket throwing, but Israel needs to stop the settlements, the air strikes and then they can discuss peace. Until then it's nothing but words.
On the other hand, Israel needs to show some initiative as well and stop its expansionism. All that does is create a reason for radicals to do what they love to do. The only problem I see is that even if Israel stopped it expansion, pulled back to the original borders, that Hamas and similar groups will continue their actions. I just don't see that happening...that is only my opinion....who really knows for sure.
Now I want to point this out...read the "Border Tensions" section.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 11786.aspx
Do you see that....Egypt is acting no different than Israel in a lot of ways. Egypt is ready and willing to force Palestinians to stay where they are even if deadly force needs to be used. Funny how no one is condemning Egypt for keeping Palestinians in their place. You see, Egypt knows that if they allow Palestinians to move into their area that they will essentially have the same issues. It is funny how a lot of Arab countries cry to the world that the world doesnt do enough and yet, when they have the chance, they will kill Palestinians to keep them out.
Doesn't that bother you, that fellow arabs that could really help diffuse the situation would rather kill to keep them out? Doesn't make any sense to me. You see, Israel in not the only blame here, ME countries could do a hell of a lot more than just words, threats and grand standing.
You are right about the Arab countries, nobody gives a shit about Palestine and its people.
Somebody needs to show serious willingness to change the cycle. I just don't have any faith in Hamas to be the ones to do that and to CONTINUE to do it if something changed for the better. I think the radicals, even beyond Hamas, will always use the Palestinian issue to continue its violence against Israel. I guess, after thousands of years...nothing is going to change anytime soon. Its a mess, nobody wants to do shit and nobody wants to work to an end. Would it be that hard to live side by side? Human nature at its best.
QFTDeathBecomesYu wrote:
There's the two biggest problems. Israel and its expansions, Palestinians and its radical stance and actions. Somebody needs to step up...period.sergeriver wrote:
Why don't you think it otherwise. Israel keeps the settlements in the now peaceful and moderate West Bank. Why don't they pull back from there?DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Exactly, as you said....its no more than words....that is what Hamas is giving...just words. This is my opinion and I dont know if for sure, but I do believe if the rockets, incursions and kidnappings stopped that Israel would stop its heavy hand. Now, I am talking military action or retaliation. Hamas stops, then Israel will stop...I do believe that will happen.
On the other hand, Israel needs to show some initiative as well and stop its expansionism. All that does is create a reason for radicals to do what they love to do. The only problem I see is that even if Israel stopped it expansion, pulled back to the original borders, that Hamas and similar groups will continue their actions. I just don't see that happening...that is only my opinion....who really knows for sure.
Now I want to point this out...read the "Border Tensions" section.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 11786.aspx
Do you see that....Egypt is acting no different than Israel in a lot of ways. Egypt is ready and willing to force Palestinians to stay where they are even if deadly force needs to be used. Funny how no one is condemning Egypt for keeping Palestinians in their place. You see, Egypt knows that if they allow Palestinians to move into their area that they will essentially have the same issues. It is funny how a lot of Arab countries cry to the world that the world doesnt do enough and yet, when they have the chance, they will kill Palestinians to keep them out.
Doesn't that bother you, that fellow arabs that could really help diffuse the situation would rather kill to keep them out? Doesn't make any sense to me. You see, Israel in not the only blame here, ME countries could do a hell of a lot more than just words, threats and grand standing.
You are right about the Arab countries, nobody gives a shit about Palestine and its people.
Somebody needs to show serious willingness to change the cycle. I just don't have any faith in Hamas to be the ones to do that and to CONTINUE to do it if something changed for the better. I think the radicals, even beyond Hamas, will always use the Palestinian issue to continue its violence against Israel. I guess, after thousands of years...nothing is going to change anytime soon. Its a mess, nobody wants to do shit and nobody wants to work to an end. Would it be that hard to live side by side? Human nature at its best.
No point in talking to the puppet. Have to deal with the puppeteer.
So...take it up with Iran?san4 wrote:
No point in talking to the puppet. Have to deal with the puppeteer.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Right. No other way to change Hamas' behavior.FEOS wrote:
So...take it up with Iran?san4 wrote:
No point in talking to the puppet. Have to deal with the puppeteer.
Looks like the meeting with Hamas was not as good as Carter first claimed.....
"Carter says top Hamas leaders told him during seven hours of talks in Damascus over the weekend that they are willing to live next to Israel, but a top Hamas official said the group would never outright recognize the Jewish state.
Carter won no specific concessions from Hamas. He defended his trip during remarks Monday in Jerusalem. He said he failed to convince the top Hamas boss, Khaled Mashaal, that he could gain international goodwill if he stopped rocket fire on Israel for one month.
Carter: 'Best I could'
"I did the best I could," Carter said. "They turned me down, and I think they're wrong."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24251917
I don't anything in there that shows Hamas will and is willing to change. There are already mixed signals. They offer a truce then turn around and say that they will never recognize Israel and will not stop rocket attacks. Sounds like too many roosters in the hen house.
"Carter says top Hamas leaders told him during seven hours of talks in Damascus over the weekend that they are willing to live next to Israel, but a top Hamas official said the group would never outright recognize the Jewish state.
Carter won no specific concessions from Hamas. He defended his trip during remarks Monday in Jerusalem. He said he failed to convince the top Hamas boss, Khaled Mashaal, that he could gain international goodwill if he stopped rocket fire on Israel for one month.
Carter: 'Best I could'
"I did the best I could," Carter said. "They turned me down, and I think they're wrong."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24251917
I don't anything in there that shows Hamas will and is willing to change. There are already mixed signals. They offer a truce then turn around and say that they will never recognize Israel and will not stop rocket attacks. Sounds like too many roosters in the hen house.
Last edited by DeathBecomesYu (2008-04-22 07:12:04)
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