Oh, so they are guilty until proven innocent, right?FallenMorgan wrote:
Women there are treated like breeding stock. There ARE allegations of rape, molestation, AND statutory rape. What their doing goes beyond religious freedom. A 13 or 14 year old girl will be forced to marry a 40 year old man and have 10 kids, and by the time she's 25, she's stuck in hell. Explain to me how they have the freedom to deny the freedom and civil rights of thousands of women.
Perhaps I should explain to you what an allegation is. If they are found guilty, which they very well might be, then I'll stand by enforcing the full punishment allowed under the law.FallenMorgan wrote:
Women there are treated like breeding stock. There ARE allegations of rape, molestation, AND statutory rape. What their doing goes beyond religious freedom. A 13 or 14 year old girl will be forced to marry a 40 year old man and have 10 kids, and by the time she's 25, she's stuck in hell. Explain to me how they have the freedom to deny the freedom and civil rights of thousands of women.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
So a whole bunch of people who escaped from the FLDS might be lying about being raped, beaten, and degraded? It's a fact that 14 year old girls are forced to marry older men, and it's a fact that women are treated like breeding stock. I remember ATG saying one of his relatives bought a house owned by the Jeffs family, but he left when Warren wanted his daughter as "payment" - there's an example they are backwater sickos.
And when they get convicted of that crime, then you can pass judgment on them. Until then, stop making wild accusations. Just because one group of people in that religion abused children, doesn't mean that they all do. If the state proves that this religious group actually did abuse children, etc, then let the full weight of the justice system come down on them.FallenMorgan wrote:
So a whole bunch of people who escaped from the FLDS might be lying about being raped, beaten, and degraded? It's a fact that 14 year old girls are forced to marry older men, and it's a fact that women are treated like breeding stock. I remember ATG saying one of his relatives bought a house owned by the Jeffs family, but he left when Warren wanted his daughter as "payment" - there's an example they are backwater sickos.
This is NOT an excuse to condemn other people's religious beliefs just because you disagree. You have abandoned the basic idea of justice just because you think all fundamentalists are evil.
Even as cultish as the Amish may be, they still send their children into the real world when they come of age. They spend a few weeks out in the real world, and they are encouraged to experience the many things they were raised to shun, so that they can gain some perspective on what their choices in life are. The ones who remain true to their original upbringing come back into the fold, and the ones who prefer the outside world return only briefly to notify their family that they have chosen to live elsewhere. (Besides, it's not like they could call to let them know... lol)Kmarion wrote:
As opposed to your definition of freedom which includes telling people where they can't live and having a state (and often self serving) government administer parenting skills. Dangerous road you choose to follow. It is rather naive to turn on the TV and pretend you know enough about the situation to challenge a parents right to raise their children.B.Schuss wrote:
so you're against rape, physical abuse, and molestation, but you would be ok with religious fundamentalists living in colonies isolated from the "real" world, and raising their children in some kind of middle age environment ?Kmarion wrote:
Isn't it obvious that I agree? Damn, am I speaking a different language tonight? If their is physical abuse, rape, molestation..etc... then fucking hell yea the state should get involved.
I realize that every parent has an influence on his/her child, but come on. Shouldn't parents at least try to raise their children in an environment that resembles reality, and not some fundamentalist theme park ? I mean, maybe I am exaggerating here, but from my point of view, the way these children are raised will make it impossible for them to even make a choice about wether they want to live like that or not.
If that's your definition of "freedom", then I don't want it, sorry.
It is this fundamental difference in choices that separates the Amish as a culture from being a cult like the FLDS is. The FLDS intentionally keeps its people ignorant, and they are but one cult that does this. There are others in this country that must also be dealt with.
Schuss could probably elaborate on this further, but I'm aware that Germany has taken the necessary steps to prevent most cultish behavior from developing in their country, because they are all too familiar with how the Nazis essentially created a massive cult. There is a good reason why the German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion either.
Freedom of religion has logical limits that must be enforced just like the rational limits to the freedoms of speech, privacy, and bearing arms. Dealing with cults is just the limit that applies to freedom of religion.
For the most part, raising children should be left up to the individual, but as the FLDS shows us, certain adults cannot be allowed to entertain their isolated fantasies. The rights of parents end where the rights of children begin.
And for anyone who wants to criticize the government for intervention, remember that the state essentially acts with the sentiments and values of the majority in mind. If the majority of this country had a problem with what's happening with this controversy, you would see more protests.
Like it or not, majority rules -- cultists should take note of this and be ready to face the consequences.
Do you realize that there are an estimated 30000 famlies living the FDLS lifestyle?Turquoise wrote:
Even as cultish as the Amish may be, they still send their children into the real world when they come of age. They spend a few weeks out in the real world, and they are encouraged to experience the many things they were raised to shun, so that they can gain some perspective on what their choices in life are. The ones who remain true to their original upbringing come back into the fold, and the ones who prefer the outside world return only briefly to notify their family that they have chosen to live elsewhere. (Besides, it's not like they could call to let them know... lol)Kmarion wrote:
As opposed to your definition of freedom which includes telling people where they can't live and having a state (and often self serving) government administer parenting skills. Dangerous road you choose to follow. It is rather naive to turn on the TV and pretend you know enough about the situation to challenge a parents right to raise their children.B.Schuss wrote:
so you're against rape, physical abuse, and molestation, but you would be ok with religious fundamentalists living in colonies isolated from the "real" world, and raising their children in some kind of middle age environment ?
I realize that every parent has an influence on his/her child, but come on. Shouldn't parents at least try to raise their children in an environment that resembles reality, and not some fundamentalist theme park ? I mean, maybe I am exaggerating here, but from my point of view, the way these children are raised will make it impossible for them to even make a choice about wether they want to live like that or not.
If that's your definition of "freedom", then I don't want it, sorry.
It is this fundamental difference in choices that separates the Amish as a culture from being a cult like the FLDS is. The FLDS intentionally keeps its people ignorant, and they are but one cult that does this. There are others in this country that must also be dealt with.
Schuss could probably elaborate on this further, but I'm aware that Germany has taken the necessary steps to prevent most cultish behavior from developing in their country, because they are all too familiar with how the Nazis essentially created a massive cult. There is a good reason why the German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion either.
Freedom of religion has logical limits that must be enforced just like the rational limits to the freedoms of speech, privacy, and bearing arms. Dealing with cults is just the limit that applies to freedom of religion.
For the most part, raising children should be left up to the individual, but as the FLDS shows us, certain adults cannot be allowed to entertain their isolated fantasies. The rights of parents end where the rights of children begin.
And for anyone who wants to criticize the government for intervention, remember that the state essentially acts with the sentiments and values of the majority in mind. If the majority of this country had a problem with what's happening with this controversy, you would see more protests.
Like it or not, majority rules -- cultists should take note of this and be ready to face the consequences.
Do the math. You want 200000 + kids raised by government worker bees.
Sickening.
Actually, there is a great demand for adoption in this country. It looks like it just got much easier to fill those requests.ATG wrote:
Do you realize that there are an estimated 30000 famlies living the FDLS lifestyle?
Do the math. You want 200000 + kids raised by government worker bees.
Sickening.
What sickens me is that the FDLS is that significant. It looks like there is much work to be done.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-04-24 15:30:34)
I respect the Amish. I like how they send their offspring out to the real world when they come of age, so they can make the CHOICE of coming back or not. No religion in history, to my knowledge, has done this. Most, such as the FLDS, shut off their kids from ALL outside influence, and in a sense brainwash them to believe that the shit they spew is real.
The Amish do not beat their women into submission, or force 13 year old girls to marry 40 year old men, like the FLDS does. The Amish are also incredibly forgiving by nature - some even went to the funeral of the guy who shot those kids at that schoolhouse.
The Amish do not beat their women into submission, or force 13 year old girls to marry 40 year old men, like the FLDS does. The Amish are also incredibly forgiving by nature - some even went to the funeral of the guy who shot those kids at that schoolhouse.
What sickens me is the willingness to subvert our legal process. We haven't changed much since the Salem witch trail days I guess. I must be a pedophile-loving women-beating polygamist because I would like to see evidence on a case by case level. I'm amazed at how many people can't see the need for proof. ATG has pointed out that the Government has been wrong more than once on these matters. Yet we still presume to know exactly what's going on in every circumstance. I'd say the brainwashing is going on at CNN. Maybe we need to raid them as well.Turquoise wrote:
Actually, there is a great demand for adoption in this country. It looks like it just got much easier to fill those requests.ATG wrote:
Do you realize that there are an estimated 30000 famlies living the FDLS lifestyle?
Do the math. You want 200000 + kids raised by government worker bees.
Sickening.
What sickens me is that the FDLS is that significant. It looks like there is much work to be done.
My problem is with the immediate condemnation of things we do not fully understand (yet). I have gut feelings just like you. I think its only rational to validate these feelings with modern day tools like DNA evidence before I assume that we, the google informed, are morally superior.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Proof of polygamy and isolation is all that I need.
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
Freedom of religion, but only if the majority agrees?Turquoise wrote:
Proof of polygamy and isolation is all that I need.
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
That's ridiculous.
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.SenorToenails wrote:
Freedom of religion, but only if the majority agrees?Turquoise wrote:
Proof of polygamy and isolation is all that I need.
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
That's ridiculous.
We claim to believe in principles in a philosophical sense, but more often than not, in action, we follow principles according to popular consensus.
Polygamy is illegal. So if proven it needs to be dealt with. Isolation? .. I can't say that there hasn't been times that I've wished I were isolated. That doesn't mean I'm a kool aide drinking mass murder.Turquoise wrote:
Proof of polygamy and isolation is all that I need.
I've got to agree with SenorToenails on this. The word Cult is pretty open ended. Think about what doors you open. The Nazis wanted to get rid of certain religions also.Turquoise wrote:
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I find your willingness to squelch another's beliefs so readily to be highly disturbing.Turquoise wrote:
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.
We claim to believe in principles in a philosophical sense, but more often than not, in action, we follow principles according to popular consensus.
You enjoy the protections of the Bill of Rights. Why can't they?
If you want to isolate yourself, that's your business. I'm simply arguing that no one has the right to isolate children from the rest of society. That is depriving them of many choices.Kmarion wrote:
Polygamy is illegal. So if proven it needs to be dealt with. Isolation? .. I can't say that there hasn't been times that I've wished I were isolated. That doesn't mean I'm a kool aide drinking mass murder.Turquoise wrote:
Proof of polygamy and isolation is all that I need.
I'm aware of the slippery slope involved, but sometimes these things must be done.Kmarion wrote:
I've got to agree with SenorToenails on this. The word Cult is pretty open ended. Think about what doors you open. The Nazis wanted to get rid of certain religions also.Turquoise wrote:
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them illegal.
BINGO! Look at the decline of certain outdated ideologies (polygamy). It's natural for people to reject these things over time. It doesn't require Big brother to trash 99% of everyone else's basic rights to change this.Turquoise wrote:
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that provides the freedom to mold a child in an isolated and highly distorted environment. This applies to more than just cults as well.SenorToenails wrote:
I find your willingness to squelch another's beliefs so readily to be highly disturbing.Turquoise wrote:
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.
We claim to believe in principles in a philosophical sense, but more often than not, in action, we follow principles according to popular consensus.
You enjoy the protections of the Bill of Rights. Why can't they?
There are certain standards society sets for raising children before social services get involved. My argument is that there are areas of our rules not yet fleshed out that would apply to cults. We need to resolve this soon.
I know it seems odd that I hold these views given my other stances, but I guess I'm very much a social conservative/authoritarian on this particular facet of issues.
I wasn't aware that you were trying to start a cult.Kmarion wrote:
BINGO! Look at the decline of certain outdated ideologies (polygamy). It's natural for people to reject these things over time. It doesn't require Big brother to trash 99% of everyone else's basic rights to change this.Turquoise wrote:
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.
In their minds they are protecting their children. We live in a frightening world. Rape, murder, and brainwashing is just as prevalent (if not more) amongst mainstream society.Turquoise wrote:
If you want to isolate yourself, that's your business. I'm simply arguing that no one has the right to isolate children from the rest of society. That is depriving them of many choices.
Never has the phrase, "You are digging yourself into a hole" been more appropriate.Turquoise wrote:
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them
I'm aware of the slippery slope involved, but sometimes these things must be done.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I'll send you an app. Free Health Care!Turquoise wrote:
I wasn't aware that you were trying to start a cult.Kmarion wrote:
BINGO! Look at the decline of certain outdated ideologies (polygamy). It's natural for people to reject these things over time. It doesn't require Big brother to trash 99% of everyone else's basic rights to change this.Turquoise wrote:
Call it what you will, but it's also reality. If you look at history, this is generally the nature of how things progress. Mormonism was not tolerated until it became numerous enough in members.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
So they can be raised by their parents in a way that you don't approve of, or they can be thrown into social services and end up a product of impersonal state care. Of those two options, I would rather leave them with their parents.Turquoise wrote:
There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that provides the freedom to mold a child in an isolated and highly distorted environment. This applies to more than just cults as well.
There are certain standards society sets for raising children before social services get involved. My argument is that there are areas of our rules not yet fleshed out that would apply to cults. We need to resolve this soon.
I know it seems odd that I hold these views given my other stances, but I guess I'm very much a social conservative/authoritarian on this particular facet of issues.
While you and I may not agree with how they raise their children, how is that any different from people who teach their kids to be young earth creationists (which is certainly a distorted view of reality, and they are taught to isolate themselves from other ideas) and to follow other fringe religious doctrine? Unless crimes are being committed, there is no real reason to split up families. Just opinions.
90% of what those are using as an example of why the government should put them in re-education camps is fiction.
First, while it is true that the FDLS probably provides a comparatively safer environment for its children, it also robs them of experiences they would otherwise have that are positive.Kmarion wrote:
In their minds they are protecting their children. We live in a frightening world. Rape, murder, and brainwashing is just as prevalent (if not more) amongst mainstream society.Turquoise wrote:
If you want to isolate yourself, that's your business. I'm simply arguing that no one has the right to isolate children from the rest of society. That is depriving them of many choices.Never has the phrase, "You are digging yourself into a hole" been more appropriate.Turquoise wrote:
Then again, I realize cults are technically legal in this country. I personally would like to make them
I'm aware of the slippery slope involved, but sometimes these things must be done.
There is a practical limit to believing all cultures are equal. Eventually, you realize certain lifestyles just aren't useful or healthy to society. I would argue that these strange communities of people pretending to live in the olden days is rather psychotic or, at the very least, mentally off.
If all it takes is a hoax to create this absurd situation we currently face, then it occurs to me that these communities are an aberration that should've been dealt with long ago.
As for digging myself into a hole, do explain.
I can logically defend that, actually. Think about how these situations become a burden to the rest of society. If we were to give in to the creationists, we'd dumb down our science classes to the point of uselessness. Thankfully, we draw the line where they must choose homeschooling if they want to be ignorant.SenorToenails wrote:
So they can be raised by their parents in a way that you don't approve of, or they can be thrown into social services and end up a product of impersonal state care. Of those two options, I would rather leave them with their parents.Turquoise wrote:
There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that provides the freedom to mold a child in an isolated and highly distorted environment. This applies to more than just cults as well.
There are certain standards society sets for raising children before social services get involved. My argument is that there are areas of our rules not yet fleshed out that would apply to cults. We need to resolve this soon.
I know it seems odd that I hold these views given my other stances, but I guess I'm very much a social conservative/authoritarian on this particular facet of issues.
While you and I may not agree with how they raise their children, how is that any different from people who teach their kids to be young earth creationists (which is certainly a distorted view of reality, and they are taught to isolate themselves from other ideas) and to follow other fringe religious doctrine? Unless crimes are being committed, there is no real reason to split up families. Just opinions.
To me, the cults present a worse situation because of the effects they have on children.
The core of my reasoning is that only mentally ill people start cults, and that they spread their illness through charisma. I see no benefits in allowing them to have their way with people's minds -- even if said people will likely be manipulated among mainstream society as well.
Somehow I think Disney will manage to get by. In time these isolationist ideologies will be eliminated naturally. Don't shit on everyone else's belief in the mean time. I don't think you are aware of how open ended your suggestions are.Turquoise wrote:
First, while it is true that the FDLS probably provides a comparatively safer environment for its children, it also robs them of experiences they would otherwise have that are positive.
If acting within the legal bounds of the laws it is their right. No matter how much you might disagree with it.Turquoise wrote:
There is a practical limit to believing all cultures are equal. Eventually, you realize certain lifestyles just aren't useful or healthy to society. I would argue that these strange communities of people pretending to live in the olden days is rather psychotic or, at the very least, mentally off.
Exactly, all it takes is and article based on speculation about a minority of people hundreds of miles away for people to trash freedom of religion.Turquoise wrote:
If all it takes is a hoax to create this absurd situation we currently face, then it occurs to me that these communities are an aberration that should've been dealt with long ago.
Holes have been used to bury non like minded individuals before.Turquoise wrote:
As for digging myself into a hole, do explain.
Xbone Stormsurgezz