ATG
Banned
+5,233|6953|Global Command
Post-Americanism.
Read 'em and weep;
https://i29.tinypic.com/a3owzp.jpg

Article wrote:

Americans are glum at the moment. No, I mean really glum. In April, a new poll revealed that 81 percent of the American people believe that the country is on the "wrong track." In the 25 years that pollsters have asked this question, last month's response was by far the most negative. Other polls, asking similar questions, found levels of gloom that were even more alarming, often at 30- and 40-year highs. There are reasons to be pessimistic—a financial panic and looming recession, a seemingly endless war in Iraq, and the ongoing threat of terrorism. But the facts on the ground—unemployment numbers, foreclosure rates, deaths from terror attacks—are simply not dire enough to explain the present atmosphere of malaise.

American anxiety springs from something much deeper, a sense that large and disruptive forces are coursing through the world. In almost every industry, in every aspect of life, it feels like the patterns of the past are being scrambled. "Whirl is king, having driven out Zeus," wrote Aristophanes 2,400 years ago. And—for the first time in living memory—the United States does not seem to be leading the charge. Americans see that a new world is coming into being, but fear it is one being shaped in distant lands and by foreign people.

Look around. The world's tallest building is in Taipei, and will soon be in Dubai. Its largest publicly traded company is in Beijing. Its biggest refinery is being constructed in India. Its largest passenger airplane is built in Europe. The largest investment fund on the planet is in Abu Dhabi; the biggest movie industry is Bollywood, not Hollywood. Once quintessentially American icons have been usurped by the natives. The largest Ferris wheel is in Singapore. The largest casino is in Macao, which overtook Las Vegas in gambling revenues last year. America no longer dominates even its favorite sport, shopping. The Mall of America in Minnesota once boasted that it was the largest shopping mall in the world. Today it wouldn't make the top ten. In the most recent rankings, only two of the world's ten richest people are American. These lists are arbitrary and a bit silly, but consider that only ten years ago, the United States would have serenely topped almost every one of these categories.
Going on...

Article wrote:

Deaths from terrorism are reported to have risen in recent years. But on closer examination, 80 percent of those casualties come from Afghanistan and Iraq, which are really war zones with ongoing insurgencies—and the overall numbers remain small.
And there you have it.
The fact is, the war on terror is bullshit.
Ever wonder what would be like if you tuned out the news!?!


Q: where does America go to retain relevancy in the next generation?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/135380/page/2
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7190|Cambridge (UK)
Where does America 'go'?

How about staying just where it is?

Like most of the more mature nations.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6748|New Haven, CT
To be honest, it might be nice to be second best. We enjoy the standard of living without being global target and policeman.
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6994|Portland, OR, USA
Post-Industrial Society
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6953|Global Command

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Where does America 'go'?

How about staying just where it is?

Like most of the more mature nations.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7190|Cambridge (UK)

ATG wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Where does America 'go'?

How about staying just where it is?

Like most of the more mature nations.
I did say most mature nations.

Some nations, it seems, never grow up.

EDIT: (assuming that was the point you're making - one of the oldest civilisations, blah, blah blah...)


2nd EDIT: Actually, what is the point you're making? You appear to realize that the 'war on terror' always was bullshit... but are you now saying that you're now buying into the 'Iran is the real evil' bullshit now?

EDIT the third: god, that 2nd edit is horribly written, but I cba to correct it.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-05-04 23:08:39)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6953|Global Command

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

How about staying just where it is?

.
It's what you're saying.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7190|Cambridge (UK)

ATG wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

How about staying just where it is?

.
It's what you're saying.
Eh?

Now I'm even more confused.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7005|the dank(super) side of Oregon

ATG wrote:

The fact is, the war on terror is bullshit.
welcome to 2004.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7190|Cambridge (UK)

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ATG wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

How about staying just where it is?

.
It's what you're saying.
Eh?

Now I'm even more confused.
Oh, actually, you mean you thought I meant staying in the middle east? is that it?

If so, no, no, I meant staying at home instead of stretching your (by which I mean Americas) imperialistic legs.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6748|New Haven, CT
Basically, no more of this.
Vax
Member
+42|6276|Flyover country

nukchebi0 wrote:

To be honest, it might be nice to be second best. We enjoy the standard of living without being global target and policeman.
Sounds good to me.
 
Where does all this USA USA NUMBERONE shit get anybody ? 


I don't even care if we are "second best"  or third or fifth or if we have any hierarchy at all

I heard we just recently lost the "number one world's worst polluter" title to China

They can have that one


--

@ Fareed Zakaria, good read

Last edited by Vax (2008-05-04 23:52:20)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7265|Cologne, Germany

good article.

I don't think America has to "go" anywhere to retain relevance. It will remain relevant, just not as much as it used to.
And maybe that's a good thing, too. Relax a little, you don't have to put the weigth of the world on your shoulders any longer.

You can be No.2 on any list, and still have a great country, you know.

There is not much you can do about most of it, anyway. As soon as those hundreds of millions of people that once were impoverished start contributing to and benefiting from their economies in China, India, and Brazil, they'll produce a growth that no one can match.

But we will be fine, as long as we are part of that.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7138|US
The competativeness taught to so many Americans is being challenged...and is adapting to the times.  [begin rant/musing on society]

To the older posters: When you played a sport, as a kid, did everyone get a trophy? 
When did it become ok to settle for the title of "runner up" in American culture? 

Being 2nd best is insulting, to most of American culture...or, at least, it was.  Nobody praised the Cubs for almost winning the world series, during any of their unsuccessful seasons of the past 100 years.  Americans seemed to be taught that being 2nd wasn't acceptable.  It ran through Patton's nationalistic speaches.  It dominated the pride and the fears of the Cold War.  It dominated the business culture.  (It dominated the storyline of Team America

Yet, when I played Little League, I got a very nice little trophy...even though I sucked at baseball.  I managed to obtain a rather sizeable collection of certificates, ribbons, and various awards, but most of them were for mediocre/slightly above average performance.  Sure, I'm proud of several of my accomplishments, but I've got a box full of awards for things that were not a big deal...why is that?  When did participating become as laudable as winning?

Is this supposed trend a good thing?  Is it good to stop once a decent goal has been met?  Is it right to settle for "almost the best?"  Maybe it is.  We all feel better when we are told, "you tried hard, and did ok."  Most of us like being praised, whether or not we were #1.  Not everyone can be the best, and sometimes #2 is pretty good...but what do we lose, when we accept being second best?  Do we become "cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat?"...Do we not achieve our full potential?...Do we end the day saying, "I wonder what the view from the top is" or maybe "What would have happened if...?"

I don't know if it's right, but I've made a few major life decisions based on the fact that I would always wonder "what if" had I not chosen the hardest path, set the highest goals, or whatnot, and I'm not sorry I decided that way.  Was that the best way?  Is that a healthy thing?  I'm not sure.

[/musing]
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7265|Cologne, Germany

I see what you mean, Raimius, but in this case, it's not about individual achievements. It's about economics, and as soon as standards of living are comparable in China/India/Brazil and the US ( at least for the majority of earners ), there is simply no chance in hell that you'll be able to outperform the 1+ Billion people in these countries. There are just too many of them.

Surely, this doesn't mean that there is no use in trying to be the best, or being competitive. Individually, at least.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7052|IRELAND

I think America and Americans have been too obsessed with being the best, the biggest, the richest, the most powerful................and lost sight of making themselves as a collective people, happy.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7181|Argentina
America should be more concerned about domestic issues (illegal immigration, deficit, etc) and forget for a while about expansionist policies.  That should be enough to get back on track.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7140
I still believe in the US... The greatest country in the world... we have had tough times before and we have risen up... not ready to throw in the towel like some... and i checked and we have 5 malls in the top 25 in the world...lol...   
http://www.easternct.edu/depts/amerst/MallsWorld.htm
Love is the answer
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA
I think if the US pursues a path of sustainable growth and actually produces some innovation in moving away from a petroleum based economy it can become a global leader. Part of what explains the US dominance post-WWII is the massive government investment in technical and scientific careers (partly through the GI Bill and partly through infrastructure improvements/R&D/funding nat'l labs/etc.)

China, India, et al. don't really have a sustainable growth pattern and won't be able to capitalize on their current expansion (and this is particularly the case with China) due to the way their early education is structured. They mostly focus on rote memorization, which is good for training engineers for a manufacturing base, but doesn't have much use in the way of innovation. Memorization doesn't cultivate the necessary skills for creative pursuits. As whacked out as the US is, the general irreverence of the population and relentless, almost stupid optimism does tend to produce a certain creativity and willingness to try anything. What we need to add to that is a new generation of the workforce with a high degree of advanced technical skills.

EDIT: That would mean, among other things, getting rid of "No Child Left Behind", which basically forces teachers to "teach to the test" lest their schools lose funding. You're basically teaching kids no kind of creative solution to problems, instead drilling them with fact after fact (not that facts are bad) simply to pass some test.

Last edited by Masques (2008-05-05 08:30:00)

RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7138|US
Excellent points, Masques.  NCLB and the gradual reduction in technical learning is reducing our potential to remain a leader in technology. (Not that my being a history major helps that, lol).
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6871|Chicago, IL
As I've said before, we as a nation produce nothing, and a nation of consumers cannot stand for long.  We have become content with 300 million middle management jobs, there are no factories, no engineers, no industrial centers, just sprawling suburbia.  The Chinese have one manager and 100 workers, we have one worker and 100 managers, how can anyone really expect such a system to survive in today's economy?

The saddest part is that our nation has the capability to become an industrial monolith again without sacrificing wages or quality of life, but there is simply no motive to do so.

Companies like Ford and GM have complained that the wages in America are too high to turn a profit, while Toyota has hired these same workers and made billions.  It is our bloated, bureaucratic economic model that is killing this nation, there are more banks in my town than restaurants, more money managers than production mangers, and too many people who have produced nothing but debt after a day at work.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7025|132 and Bush

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ATG wrote:


It's what you're saying.
Eh?

Now I'm even more confused.
Oh, actually, you mean you thought I meant staying in the middle east? is that it?

If so, no, no, I meant staying at home instead of stretching your (by which I mean Americas) imperialistic legs.
The hypocrisy is nauseating.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6577|what

JahManRed wrote:

I think America and Americans have been too obsessed with being the best, the biggest, the richest, the most powerful................and lost sight of making themselves as a collective people, happy.
The problem is that Americans live in a society, yet the focus seems to be that you live in an economy, only.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7190|Cambridge (UK)

Kmarion wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


Eh?

Now I'm even more confused.
Oh, actually, you mean you thought I meant staying in the middle east? is that it?

If so, no, no, I meant staying at home instead of stretching your (by which I mean Americas) imperialistic legs.
The hypocrisy is nauseating.
What hypocrisy?

1. Great Britain is no longer imperialistic.
2. I think we shouldn't be in the Middle East either.
Canin
Conservative Roman Catholic
+280|6899|Foothills of S. Carolina

RAIMIUS wrote:

The competativeness taught to so many Americans is being challenged...and is adapting to the times.  [begin rant/musing on society]

To the older posters: When you played a sport, as a kid, did everyone get a trophy? 
When did it become ok to settle for the title of "runner up" in American culture? 

Being 2nd best is insulting, to most of American culture...or, at least, it was.  Nobody praised the Cubs for almost winning the world series, during any of their unsuccessful seasons of the past 100 years.  Americans seemed to be taught that being 2nd wasn't acceptable.  It ran through Patton's nationalistic speaches.  It dominated the pride and the fears of the Cold War.  It dominated the business culture.  (It dominated the storyline of Team America

Yet, when I played Little League, I got a very nice little trophy...even though I sucked at baseball.  I managed to obtain a rather sizeable collection of certificates, ribbons, and various awards, but most of them were for mediocre/slightly above average performance.  Sure, I'm proud of several of my accomplishments, but I've got a box full of awards for things that were not a big deal...why is that?  When did participating become as laudable as winning?

Is this supposed trend a good thing?  Is it good to stop once a decent goal has been met?  Is it right to settle for "almost the best?"  Maybe it is.  We all feel better when we are told, "you tried hard, and did ok."  Most of us like being praised, whether or not we were #1.  Not everyone can be the best, and sometimes #2 is pretty good...but what do we lose, when we accept being second best?  Do we become "cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat?"...Do we not achieve our full potential?...Do we end the day saying, "I wonder what the view from the top is" or maybe "What would have happened if...?"

I don't know if it's right, but I've made a few major life decisions based on the fact that I would always wonder "what if" had I not chosen the hardest path, set the highest goals, or whatnot, and I'm not sorry I decided that way.  Was that the best way?  Is that a healthy thing?  I'm not sure.

[/musing]
I think you can thank organizations like Upwards Sports and the like for the new thinking in America that no one needs to loose, everyone is a winner. Last I read, Upwards does not even keep score, so as not to injure the delicate psyche of the children playing the sports.

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