Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So wouldn't that make it our responsibility to get them back? Riiiight.
I get it - against all honorable principles sell weapons to dictators (preferably ones with oil) so that at a later date you can 'invade to spread freedom and democracy' (using serious heavy weaponry to do it). Now I realise why you've been selling so much materiel to Saudi Arabia!
Look at the context of the time and situation that was occuring when the US sold weapons to Saddam.  Pretty sure we wanted to be friends...

Hehe.  Don't forget about the F-14's we sold Iran, now only if we could get Chavez to buy some of our stuff....
Sure, there was a context for all these things, but...  I think 9/11 showed us that the more we meddle with the Middle East, the more of a risk we put ourselves at of retaliation.

I just hope we eventually figure out that moving away from foreign oil is the best route.  In the end, the only people who can save Iraq are the Iraqis themselves.
13rin
Member
+977|6903

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


I get it - against all honorable principles sell weapons to dictators (preferably ones with oil) so that at a later date you can 'invade to spread freedom and democracy' (using serious heavy weaponry to do it). Now I realise why you've been selling so much materiel to Saudi Arabia!
Look at the context of the time and situation that was occuring when the US sold weapons to Saddam.  Pretty sure we wanted to be friends...

Hehe.  Don't forget about the F-14's we sold Iran, now only if we could get Chavez to buy some of our stuff....
Sure, there was a context for all these things, but...  I think 9/11 showed us that the more we meddle with the Middle East, the more of a risk we put ourselves at of retaliation.

I just hope we eventually figure out that moving away from foreign oil is the best route.  In the end, the only people who can save Iraq are the Iraqis themselves.
I see what you are getting at, but I disagree.  We half ass meddled with the ME.  Then 9-11.  Then the US introduced the ME to MOABs, laser guided precision weapons and Marines.  Since then well, did I miss the last terrorist attack on the US?

I agree with you 100%.  Gotta get off the foreign oil tit.  It's coming too.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/nex … 2.13s.html
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6530|eXtreme to the maX
Well we must be sure we don't inconvenience him in any way and always say "pretty please" when questioning him. Otherwise, we'd be torturing him, and we certainly can't have that...
Unless of course they picked up the wrong guy.
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7391423.stm
Iraq al-Qaeda chief not captured
The United States military in Iraq says a man detained in the northern city of Mosul is not in fact the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq.
An earlier statement from the Iraqi defence ministry said that al-Masri had been captured.
But an American military spokeswoman, Peggy Kageleiry, said Abu Ayyub al-Masri had not been arrested.
She said confusion had arisen because a man with a similar name to the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader had been detained.

Al-Qaeda in Iraq has been blamed for or has claimed responsibility for some of the bloodiest insurgent attacks in Iraq since the US-led invasion in 2003.
Members of al-Qaeda are believed to have regrouped in the northern city since the beginning of the US troops "surge" last year.
Al-Masri is believed to have helped Abu Musab al-Zarqawi form the first al-Qaeda cell in Baghdad. Zarqawi was killed in June 2006.
In April 2007, he was named "minister of war" in the 10-man cabinet of the Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella organisation of Sunni militant groups.
See how torturing whoever you grab may not always be a good thing?
Fuck Israel
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6647|Escea

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:


Look at the context of the time and situation that was occuring when the US sold weapons to Saddam.  Pretty sure we wanted to be friends...

Hehe.  Don't forget about the F-14's we sold Iran, now only if we could get Chavez to buy some of our stuff....
Sure, there was a context for all these things, but...  I think 9/11 showed us that the more we meddle with the Middle East, the more of a risk we put ourselves at of retaliation.

I just hope we eventually figure out that moving away from foreign oil is the best route.  In the end, the only people who can save Iraq are the Iraqis themselves.
I see what you are getting at, but I disagree.  We half ass meddled with the ME.  Then 9-11.  Then the US introduced the ME to MOABs, laser guided precision weapons and Marines.  Since then well, did I miss the last terrorist attack on the US?

I agree with you 100%.  Gotta get off the foreign oil tit.  It's coming too.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/nex … 2.13s.html
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

I see what you are getting at, but I disagree.  We half ass meddled with the ME.  Then 9-11.  Then the US introduced the ME to MOABs, laser guided precision weapons and Marines.  Since then well, did I miss the last terrorist attack on the US?
We also introduced Iraq and Afghanistan to shoulder fired rockets, which really helped them against Iran and the Soviets but then helped insurgents fight us.

I guess what I'm getting at is...  As bad as the Soviets might have been, they were a much easier enemy to deal with than our current enemies, because they had more to lose.  MAD works well against conventional enemies, but when you arm nonconventional forces like Islamists with powerful weapons and help them to rise in power, it usually bites you in the ass.

DBBrinson1 wrote:

I agree with you 100%.  Gotta get off the foreign oil tit.  It's coming too.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/nex … 2.13s.html
Good to know.  One thing I definitely side with conservatives on is doing what we can to boost domestic oil production.  We need to get away from the Middle East as much as possible.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-05-09 08:24:44)

13rin
Member
+977|6903

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

I see what you are getting at, but I disagree.  We half ass meddled with the ME.  Then 9-11.  Then the US introduced the ME to MOABs, laser guided precision weapons and Marines.  Since then well, did I miss the last terrorist attack on the US?
We also introduced Iraq and Afghanistan to shoulder fired rockets, which really helped them against Iran and the Soviets but then helped insurgents fight us.
That is kinda of a retrospect-o-scope thing.  We really couldn't check out the weapons like books now? 

Turquoise wrote:

I guess what I'm getting at is...  As bad as the Soviets might have been, they were a much easier enemy to deal with than our current enemies, because they had more to lose.  MAD works well against conventional enemies, but when you arm nonconventional forces like Islamists with powerful weapons and help them to rise in power, it usually bites you in the ass.
So you see how important it is to keep rogue nations like Iran/Syria/N. Korea<-Forehead slap from getting a football.  How easy do you think that Imadinnajacket of Iran could claim theft of a nuclear bomb (probably blame the US) and then shortly after "Sum of all Fears" crap.  Yea I'm kinda pissed my government made it easier for some of the wacko assholes to get fully autos with grenade launcher attachments for free and me a citizen has to go through all kinds of red tape. OH, this comes to mind too....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/inter … 5bomb.html

Scary if it's true.

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

I agree with you 100%.  Gotta get off the foreign oil tit.  It's coming too.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/nex … 2.13s.html
Good to know.  One thing I definitely side with conservatives on is doing what we can to boost domestic oil production.  We need to get away from the Middle East as much as possible.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So you see how important it is to keep rogue nations like Iran/Syria/N. Korea<-Forehead slap from getting a football.  How easy do you think that Imadinnajacket of Iran could claim theft of a nuclear bomb (probably blame the US) and then shortly after "Sum of all Fears" crap.  Yea I'm kinda pissed my government made it easier for some of the wacko assholes to get fully autos with grenade launcher attachments for free and me a citizen has to go through all kinds of red tape. OH, this comes to mind too....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/inter … 5bomb.html

Scary if it's true.
This is apples to oranges.  I was talking about extremists -- you're talking about actual governments.  Sure, Ahmadinejad is a blowhard idiot, but the Ayatollah is the man with the real power.  He's smart enough not to try what you described, because he knows that if he did, we'd crush Iran without a second thought.

I actually hope Iran gets nukes for the simple fact that it will keep us from invading Iran unless it's for a really good reason, and because Israel already has nukes, so there needs to be a Muslim nuclear power to balance things out (Pakistan notwithstanding).
13rin
Member
+977|6903
And thank you mods for changing my title to warp my position. Weak. * you could have pm'ed me asking me to be more specific.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-05-09 18:40:20)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7099|Canberra, AUS
Isn't that what's happened...?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
13rin
Member
+977|6903

Spark wrote:

Isn't that what's happened...?
Is it your post title to edit Sparkie?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7099|Canberra, AUS

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Isn't that what's happened...?
Is it your post title to edit Sparkie?
Wow, someone's feeling uptight today.

Take your anger out on the mods, not on me.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
13rin
Member
+977|6903

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So you see how important it is to keep rogue nations like Iran/Syria/N. Korea<-Forehead slap from getting a football.  How easy do you think that Imadinnajacket of Iran could claim theft of a nuclear bomb (probably blame the US) and then shortly after "Sum of all Fears" crap.  Yea I'm kinda pissed my government made it easier for some of the wacko assholes to get fully autos with grenade launcher attachments for free and me a citizen has to go through all kinds of red tape. OH, this comes to mind too....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/inter … 5bomb.html

Scary if it's true.
This is apples to oranges.  I was talking about extremists -- you're talking about actual governments.  Sure, Ahmadinejad is a blowhard idiot, but the Ayatollah is the man with the real power.  He's smart enough not to try what you described, because he knows that if he did, we'd crush Iran without a second thought.

Wow.I actually hope Iran gets nukes for the simple fact that it will keep us from invading Iran unless it's for a really good reason, and because Israel already has nukes, so there needs to be a Muslim nuclear power to balance things out (Pakistan notwithstanding).
You don't consider the Iranian government extreme?  Why do you think we are so hell bent on invading Iran?  Sure, Iran is supplying arms and men to fight against our soldiers.  The asshole taunts the US.  He threatens to destroy Israel.  But hell, you're right!  Why should the US care if they get nukes?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7099|Canberra, AUS

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So you see how important it is to keep rogue nations like Iran/Syria/N. Korea<-Forehead slap from getting a football.  How easy do you think that Imadinnajacket of Iran could claim theft of a nuclear bomb (probably blame the US) and then shortly after "Sum of all Fears" crap.  Yea I'm kinda pissed my government made it easier for some of the wacko assholes to get fully autos with grenade launcher attachments for free and me a citizen has to go through all kinds of red tape. OH, this comes to mind too....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/inter … 5bomb.html

Scary if it's true.
This is apples to oranges.  I was talking about extremists -- you're talking about actual governments.  Sure, Ahmadinejad is a blowhard idiot, but the Ayatollah is the man with the real power.  He's smart enough not to try what you described, because he knows that if he did, we'd crush Iran without a second thought.

Wow.I actually hope Iran gets nukes for the simple fact that it will keep us from invading Iran unless it's for a really good reason, and because Israel already has nukes, so there needs to be a Muslim nuclear power to balance things out (Pakistan notwithstanding).
You don't consider the Iranian government extreme?  Why do you think we are so hell bent on invading Iran?  Sure, Iran is supplying arms and men to fight against our soldiers.  The asshole taunts the US.  He threatens to destroy Israel.  But hell, you're right!  Why should the US care if they get nukes?
Just how stupid do you think they are?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
13rin
Member
+977|6903

Spark wrote:

Just how stupid do you think they are?
They?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7114|Tampa Bay Florida

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Weak hearts be ashamed.
lol wut

*ashamed face*
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA

DBBrinson1 wrote:

You don't consider the Iranian government extreme?  Why do you think we are so hell bent on invading Iran?  Sure, Iran is supplying arms and men to fight against our soldiers. The asshole taunts the US.  He threatens to destroy Israel.  But hell, you're right!  Why should the US care if they get nukes?
Umm...yeah(LA Times)

There was something interesting missing from Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner's introductory remarks to journalists at his regular news briefing in Baghdad on Wednesday: the word "Iran," or any form of it. It was especially striking as Bergner, the U.S. military spokesman here, announced the extraordinary list of weapons and munitions that have been uncovered in recent weeks since fighting erupted between Iraqi and U.S. security forces and Shiite militiamen.

Among other things, Bergner cited 20,000 "items of ammunition, explosives and weapons" reported by Iraqi forces in the central city of Karbala;  an additional Karbala cache containing 570 explosive devices, nine mortars, four anti-aircraft missiles, and 45 RPGs; and in the southern city of Basra alone, 39 mortar tubes, 1,800 mortars and artillery rounds, 600 rockets, and 387 roadside bombs. Read his remarks here.

Not once did Bergner point the finger at Iran for any of these weapons and munitions, which is a striking change from just a couple of weeks ago when U.S. military officials here and at the Pentagon were saying that caches found in Basra in particular had revealed Iranian-made arms manufactured as recently as this year. They say the majority of rockets being fired at U.S. bases, including Baghdad's Green Zone, are launched by militiamen receiving training, arms and other aid from Iran.
...
Iraqi officials also have accused Iran of meddling in violence and had echoed the U.S. accusations of new Iranian-made arms being found in Basra. But neither the United States nor Iraq has displayed any of the alleged arms to the public or press, and lately it is looking less likely they will. U.S. military officials said it was up to the Iraqis to show the items; Iraqi officials lately have backed off the accusations against Iran.

A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was canceled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran. A U.S. military spokesman attributed the confusion to a misunderstanding that emerged after an Iraqi Army general in Karbala erroneously reported the items were of Iranian origin.

When U.S. explosives experts went to investigate, they discovered they were not Iranian after all.
I'm surprised there are still people who believe this bunch regarding Iran after all the shifting rationales given for Iraq and the non-existent big scary weapons and delivery systems that were supposed to be there.

Not to mention that Iraq was supposed to be LIEK TEH GREATEST THREAT TO TEH WURL EVAR OMG!! And now Iran seems to be LIEK TEH GREATEST THREAT TO TEH WURL EVAR OMG!@Q
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7025|132 and Bush

No worries Masques.. given the historical standard Iran has at least nine more years of UN sanctions before we see any action. Aside from the occasional military strike that is.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So you see how important it is to keep rogue nations like Iran/Syria/N. Korea<-Forehead slap from getting a football.  How easy do you think that Imadinnajacket of Iran could claim theft of a nuclear bomb (probably blame the US) and then shortly after "Sum of all Fears" crap.  Yea I'm kinda pissed my government made it easier for some of the wacko assholes to get fully autos with grenade launcher attachments for free and me a citizen has to go through all kinds of red tape. OH, this comes to mind too....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/inter … 5bomb.html

Scary if it's true.
This is apples to oranges.  I was talking about extremists -- you're talking about actual governments.  Sure, Ahmadinejad is a blowhard idiot, but the Ayatollah is the man with the real power.  He's smart enough not to try what you described, because he knows that if he did, we'd crush Iran without a second thought.

I actually hope Iran gets nukes for the simple fact that it will keep us from invading Iran unless it's for a really good reason, and because Israel already has nukes, so there needs to be a Muslim nuclear power to balance things out (Pakistan notwithstanding).
You don't consider the Iranian government extreme?  Why do you think we are so hell bent on invading Iran?  Sure, Iran is supplying arms and men to fight against our soldiers.  The asshole taunts the US.  He threatens to destroy Israel.  But hell, you're right!  Why should the US care if they get nukes?
Iran is far more of a threat to us in the manner you just mentioned -- supporting the insurgency.  THAT's what we should get on their case about.  You really can't expect Iran to stop exploring nuclear technology just because we tell them not to.  If put under enough pressure, they'll just hide their nuclear research and continue doing it outside of our view.

Getting them to stop aiding the insurgency is considerably easier to do.  Therefore, we should focus on this and possibly use tolerance of their nuclear program as a bargaining chip.

For example, we could say, "If you stop contributing to the insurgency and help us weed out extremists coming from your country, we'll stop putting pressure on you about your nukes."  That would be a much better option than expecting them to stop either of these things with our current aggressive attitude.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-05-10 11:17:59)

Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6607|Ireland

CameronPoe wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So wouldn't that make it our responsibility to get them back? Riiiight.
I get it - against all honorable principles sell weapons to dictators (preferably ones with oil) so that at a later date you can 'invade to spread freedom and democracy' (using serious heavy weaponry to do it). Now I realise why you've been selling so much materiel to Saudi Arabia!
Cameron is just jealous because nobody will buy potatoe guns from Ireland.

Get real Cameron, everyone sells everyone weapons.  If the US stopped selling weapons do you really think it would stop wars in this world.  You look back 30 years all cocky like you are brilliant because you know now what should have been done in hind sight and you think it makes you look smart when you just look like every other dim wit that chimes in after something happens and says " ummm, you shouldn't have done that. ".  Well get over it because you know nothing.  Nobody knew how the cold war would end, what allies they would need, oil reserves in countries were expected to run out decades ago, or which dictators would turn on the guys holding the leash.

You're so full of shit it is hard for me to stomach your stupid posts anymore that are about the same shit that was proven incorrect the week before but you still have to post your old worn out dishonest liberal tag lines like a robot week after week without ever having an original thought of your own.

At least Micheal Moore came up with his own lies to push as fact.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

Lotta_Drool wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So wouldn't that make it our responsibility to get them back? Riiiight.
I get it - against all honorable principles sell weapons to dictators (preferably ones with oil) so that at a later date you can 'invade to spread freedom and democracy' (using serious heavy weaponry to do it). Now I realise why you've been selling so much materiel to Saudi Arabia!
Cameron is just jealous because nobody will buy potatoe guns from Ireland.

Get real Cameron, everyone sells everyone weapons.  If the US stopped selling weapons do you really think it would stop wars in this world.  You look back 30 years all cocky like you are brilliant because you know now what should have been done in hind sight and you think it makes you look smart when you just look like every other dim wit that chimes in after something happens and says " ummm, you shouldn't have done that. ".  Well get over it because you know nothing.  Nobody knew how the cold war would end, what allies they would need, oil reserves in countries were expected to run out decades ago, or which dictators would turn on the guys holding the leash.

You're so full of shit it is hard for me to stomach your stupid posts anymore that are about the same shit that was proven incorrect the week before but you still have to post your old worn out dishonest liberal tag lines like a robot week after week without ever having an original thought of your own.

At least Micheal Moore came up with his own lies to push as fact.
Whoa man...  Look, I agree that hindsight is 20/20, but Cameron makes some good points.

It is true that participating in the arms trade is something that every major country does.  Even Canada and Norway make a considerable amount of money from it.  The problem with America's level of participation is that we repeatedly make the same mistake of assuming that the enemy of our enemy is our friend.  The jihadists have thoroughly proven that assumption wrong, because we armed them against the Soviets and they have become some of the most annoying enemies we've had.

Sure, they may not have as much power as actual governments, but they have 2 things to their advantage: 1) the ability to function like a hydra in that someone is always there to replace a fallen leader, and 2) the fact that they have nothing to lose.

Once the Cold War ended, our enemies became mostly small groups of crazy people, many of whom embrace suicide bombing.  We're so used to arming groups to fight our enemies for us that we seem to have forgotten that this is how these crazy people got their weapons in the first place.

It seems like the only logical route to go from here is to spend more time negotiating with allies and potential allies in getting them to help us wipe out extremists.  We've done a decent amount of that over the last few years, but I'm still very leery of working with militias (like the Mahdi Army).
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7146|Eastern PA

Lotta_Drool wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

So wouldn't that make it our responsibility to get them back? Riiiight.
I get it - against all honorable principles sell weapons to dictators (preferably ones with oil) so that at a later date you can 'invade to spread freedom and democracy' (using serious heavy weaponry to do it). Now I realise why you've been selling so much materiel to Saudi Arabia!
Cameron is just jealous because nobody will buy potatoe guns from Ireland.

Get real Cameron, everyone sells everyone weapons.  If the US stopped selling weapons do you really think it would stop wars in this world.  You look back 30 years all cocky like you are brilliant because you know now what should have been done in hind sight and you think it makes you look smart when you just look like every other dim wit that chimes in after something happens and says " ummm, you shouldn't have done that. ".  Well get over it because you know nothing.  Nobody knew how the cold war would end, what allies they would need, oil reserves in countries were expected to run out decades ago, or which dictators would turn on the guys holding the leash.

You're so full of shit it is hard for me to stomach your stupid posts anymore that are about the same shit that was proven incorrect the week before but you still have to post your old worn out dishonest liberal tag lines like a robot week after week without ever having an original thought of your own.

At least Micheal Moore came up with his own lies to push as fact.
We sold weapons to Iran and Iraq in the 1980s, while we were allied with one, while they were fighting the other...you don't need hindsight to know that's going to end badly for all parties involved.
DrOxiN
tat twaz me kill biotch!?!?
+33|6267|Bel Air,Maryland
Sure, it may not be him, but this just goes to show we are looking for them and that we do have some leads. We only get closer and closer to finding them
JahManRed
wank
+646|7052|IRELAND

Kmarion wrote:

No worries Masques.. given the historical standard Iran has at least nine more years of UN sanctions before we see any action. Aside from the occasional military strike that is.
Are those the kind of sanctions which killed thousands of Iraqi children while alienating the west and making Saddam Husein even more powerful?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6530|eXtreme to the maX
Are those the kind of sanctions which killed thousands of Iraqi children while alienating the west and making Saddam Husein even more powerful?
Maybe, probably they're the kind of sanctions Cheney used to make money for Halliburton.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6835|'Murka

JahManRed wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

No worries Masques.. given the historical standard Iran has at least nine more years of UN sanctions before we see any action. Aside from the occasional military strike that is.
Are those the kind of sanctions which killed thousands of Iraqi children while alienating the west and making Saddam Husein even more powerful?
You mean the ones where the UN cooperated with Saddam funneling money away from food and medicine for his people and into palaces and solid gold toilets? Those sanctions?

Don't blame the sanctions for the suffering of the Iraqi people. Blame the regime that prevented the intended aid from getting to the people it was meant for (that would be Saddam's regime).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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