And this marks the difference between political correctness (i.e. stupidity) and common-sense politeness.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
how so ?Spark wrote:
And this marks the difference between political correctness (i.e. stupidity) and common-sense politeness.
btw, just for context, we have had other cases of that sort, muslim parents trying to remove their children from certain classes ( such as biology, when the topic was sex education ), or other school activities ( week-long field trips, for example, where the students would sleep in dorms, without their parents being present ).
It's not just the swimming. It touches the question if we should allow followers of a certain religion to bypass the rules that we have set up for everyone to follow.
But as I have said, it's a learning process, and we are still very much at the beginning of it
It's not just the swimming. It touches the question if we should allow followers of a certain religion to bypass the rules that we have set up for everyone to follow.
But as I have said, it's a learning process, and we are still very much at the beginning of it
i'm 100% behind Germany here. I understand the religious bit, however I don't think that children should be missing learning opportunities over religious issues. Might as well skip sex ed so that the first time you have sex you get pregnant. Sorry, but being part of society means putting your own beliefs in second place.
The educational criteria has been set by the German government and board(s) of education. I hope Germany sticks to its guns on this matter. They shouldn't force some one to take classes or do specific assignments of that class if they violate a religious belief, but it should also mean a fail on the assignment they refuse to complete or failure to graduate if they refuse to take certain classes.B.Schuss wrote:
btw, just for context, we have had other cases of that sort, muslim parents trying to remove their children from certain classes ( such as biology, when the topic was sex education ), or other school activities ( week-long field trips, for example, where the students would sleep in dorms, without their parents being present ).
It's not just the swimming. It touches the question if we should allow followers of a certain religion to bypass the rules that we have set up for everyone to follow.
But as I have said, it's a learning process, and we are still very much at the beginning of it
Germany has swim classes that's pretty much Awesome... We had Dodge ball back in my day, no longer though cause of stupid people..
This is a common precedent in all societies now, let the kids/parents make the decision's, and break the rules.. If she doesn't want to go to swim class that's fine why not go to a Muslim Private School(do they have these)? In the U.S. we have Catholic Schools and allot of other public school alternatives, but if you don't want to pay the extra money you're stuck with following the curriculum of the school..
I'm never someone to say "go back to your own country" but if you're a white duck in the middle of a bunch of black ducks, don't assume that they're going to paint themselves to make you more comfortable..
This is a common precedent in all societies now, let the kids/parents make the decision's, and break the rules.. If she doesn't want to go to swim class that's fine why not go to a Muslim Private School(do they have these)? In the U.S. we have Catholic Schools and allot of other public school alternatives, but if you don't want to pay the extra money you're stuck with following the curriculum of the school..
I'm never someone to say "go back to your own country" but if you're a white duck in the middle of a bunch of black ducks, don't assume that they're going to paint themselves to make you more comfortable..
Great post, man... The only thing I have to add is that maybe you guys should restrict immigration more from Muslim nations. Like America, there are plenty of people interested in moving to Germany, so you might as well be more selective who you let in. Plenty of ethnic groups are less whiny than these orthodox Muslims.B.Schuss wrote:
lol. germany really can do nothing right, can we ?
When we allow muslims students to pray on school grounds, we get heat from lowing, FEOS, and others for being "appeasers".
When we chose to enforce our laws, we get heat from Lotta, for "denying freedom of religion"
make up your minds, will ya ? What are we, appeasers or nazis ?
the parents where offered a compromise so that the girl could attend swim class, they turned it down. Numerous people here have posted pictures of non-offending swimwear for muslims.
The huge deal here is, Lotta, that school attendance is mandatory through law here in germany. If we start making exceptions for one religion, we'd set a dangerous precedent for others. Allowing one student to remove himself/herself from class simply because of the religion would be unfair towards the rest of the class, who happen not to be muslims.
And since when do individual believe systems override national law ?
I realize there is a fine line between freedom of religion and secular law. We have had that same discussion over the school prayer thing in germany a couple of weeks ago. The reality is simply that at the time when the relevant laws were created ( freedom of religion, separation of church and state ) we did not have a sufficiently large muslim population for these issues to come up.
The standards are there, but we are still learning how to apply those standards with regard to different religions, some of which weren't even present in germany at the time when the laws were introduced.
It's a slow, difficult process, which much learning to do on both sides.
what I find ironic is that this story would appear on fox news. I'd bet a lot of money that if this had not involved a muslim girl, fox wouldn't have bothered reporting any of it. To me , it seems they are actively looking for these types of stories, for whatever reason.
^^^ What he said is so true.Turquoise wrote:
Great post, man... The only thing I have to add is that maybe you guys should restrict immigration more from Muslim nations. Like America, there are plenty of people interested in moving to Germany, so you might as well be more selective who you let in. Plenty of ethnic groups are less whiny than these orthodox Muslims.
If they dont like it they can move back to their Saudi Arabia and live a happy life there.
if only fuckin england was like this ...tbhFatherTed wrote:
No, Germany has a handle on the runaway political correctness train.
That's how the thread title should read.
dam straightliquix wrote:
i'm 100% behind Germany here. I understand the religious bit, however I don't think that children should be missing learning opportunities over religious issues. Might as well skip sex ed so that the first time you have sex you get pregnant. Sorry, but being part of society means putting your own beliefs in second place.
Last edited by 02fxnmaurer (2008-05-10 10:36:43)
Germany has balls i like it
+1 Karma to Germany! Sehr gut!
What was that koran verse about how if you move to another land you should respect their rules and customs...
What was that koran verse about how if you move to another land you should respect their rules and customs...
well, I would be all for that, but unfortunately, due to our "problematic" past as far as treating minorities is concerned, the german immigration legislation is rather liberal at the moment.Lotta_Drool wrote:
^^^ What he said is so true.Turquoise wrote:
Great post, man... The only thing I have to add is that maybe you guys should restrict immigration more from Muslim nations. Like America, there are plenty of people interested in moving to Germany, so you might as well be more selective who you let in. Plenty of ethnic groups are less whiny than these orthodox Muslims.
It is not easy to overcome such a huge historic burden, especially when the ruling class ( political and economic elites ) were all raised during times when the atrocities of the Nazi regime were still very much present in everyone's minds.
It will take some time ( maybe another 10 to 15 years ) until we can really leave that behind us and address the issues that we are facing with the honesty and straight-forwardness that they require.
But that's ok. It is a delicate balance between remembering the lessons of the past ( and making sure that we never forget them ) and at the same time conducting an immigration policy that deals with today's problems effectively.
Looking at it from that perspective, I know what you mean.
I only wish Japan would look at their history that way, but for the most part, they simply deny things like the Rape of Nanking ever happened.
I only wish Japan would look at their history that way, but for the most part, they simply deny things like the Rape of Nanking ever happened.
Germany FTW , sick and tired of muslims bashing the western world and then live in it and want us to change for there religious beliefs blah
Last edited by doug1988 (2008-05-11 08:43:06)
I'm turned on. Fappity fap fap...Mek-Stizzle wrote:
I can still see their face, feet and hands. I am outraged!
I personally like the flower pattern.
Better not tell them that MOST of us pi$$ in the pool.
I hear Muslims have a real phobia about urine and will even carry around a piece of chalk to wipe themselves off with.
Don't ask me why I know this I just heard it.... but if someone does know the reason for the chalk please enlighten me.
I hear Muslims have a real phobia about urine and will even carry around a piece of chalk to wipe themselves off with.
Don't ask me why I know this I just heard it.... but if someone does know the reason for the chalk please enlighten me.
i wonder how the girl feels, must be pretty shitty for her.
Inb4muslimsgettingoffended.
shut the fuck up already.
the little cunt can do it like the rest of us: grin and bear it, get a doctors note for a mysterious injury or just take the fucking F for the PE unit. its not the end of the fucking world.
and yes, the family is WRONG. there are solutions here, they're being unreasonable. she can wear a wetsuit, she can wear BLACK leggings and and a BLACK shirt, which isn't see through when wet, or she can stop being a little cunt.
schools should not have to make special cases for people. where does the school get off forcing me to learn algebra? why is that any different? its not. they're both valuable life skills. religious freedom does not mean you get to live your life by your religion. you're so totally and completely misguided that i can't believe it. freedom of religion means you get to practice what you want and preach what you want, and that the government will not form any decisions based on religious values. not that your religion gets to be law. its the same as removing pork from the lunch room or demanding to be able to practice sharia law.
shut the fuck up already. (see what i did there?)
the little cunt can do it like the rest of us: grin and bear it, get a doctors note for a mysterious injury or just take the fucking F for the PE unit. its not the end of the fucking world.
and yes, the family is WRONG. there are solutions here, they're being unreasonable. she can wear a wetsuit, she can wear BLACK leggings and and a BLACK shirt, which isn't see through when wet, or she can stop being a little cunt.
schools should not have to make special cases for people. where does the school get off forcing me to learn algebra? why is that any different? its not. they're both valuable life skills. religious freedom does not mean you get to live your life by your religion. you're so totally and completely misguided that i can't believe it. freedom of religion means you get to practice what you want and preach what you want, and that the government will not form any decisions based on religious values. not that your religion gets to be law. its the same as removing pork from the lunch room or demanding to be able to practice sharia law.
shut the fuck up already. (see what i did there?)