IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7166|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." So said Albert Einstein, and his famous aphorism has been the source of endless debate between believers and non-believers wanting to claim the greatest scientist of the 20th century as their own.

A little known letter written by him, however, may help to settle the argument - or at least provoke further controversy about his views.

Due to be auctioned this week in London after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, the document leaves no doubt that the theoretical physicist was no supporter of religious beliefs, which he regarded as "childish superstitions".

Einstein penned the letter on January 3 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt. The letter went on public sale a year later and has remained in private hands ever since.

In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

The letter will go on sale at Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair on Thursday and is expected to fetch up to £8,000. The handwritten piece, in German, is not listed in the source material of the most authoritative academic text on the subject, Max Jammer's book Einstein and Religion.

One of the country's leading experts on the scientist, John Brooke of Oxford University, admitted he had not heard of it.

Einstein is best known for his theories of relativity and for the famous E=mc2 equation that describes the equivalence of mass and energy, but his thoughts on religion have long attracted conjecture.

His parents were not religious but he attended a Catholic primary school and at the same time received private tuition in Judaism. This prompted what he later called, his "religious paradise of youth", during which he observed religious rules such as not eating pork. This did not last long though and by 12 he was questioning the truth of many biblical stories.

"The consequence was a positively fanatic [orgy of] freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression," he later wrote.

In his later years he referred to a "cosmic religious feeling" that permeated and sustained his scientific work. In 1954, a year before his death, he spoke of wishing to "experience the universe as a single cosmic whole". He was also fond of using religious flourishes, in 1926 declaring that "He [God] does not throw dice" when referring to randomness thrown up by quantum theory.

His position on God has been widely misrepresented by people on both sides of the atheism/religion divide but he always resisted easy stereotyping on the subject.

"Like other great scientists he does not fit the boxes in which popular polemicists like to pigeonhole him," said Brooke. "It is clear for example that he had respect for the religious values enshrined within Judaic and Christian traditions ... but what he understood by religion was something far more subtle than what is usually meant by the word in popular discussion."

Despite his categorical rejection of conventional religion, Brooke said that Einstein became angry when his views were appropriated by evangelists for atheism. He was offended by their lack of humility and once wrote. "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ … e.religion

seems my belief in Einstein's belief has been miss-placed all these years!.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7045|London, England
Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.

About Jews and "Gods chosen people" - Is this actually real (as in, does Judaism/Christianity actually teach that), because if it is. Not trying to start anything, but I can understand why Jews would be persecuted through out history. You can't expect that shit to fly...

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-05-13 04:23:34)

twiistaaa
Member
+87|7092|mexico
people who think einstein believed in a personal god knows nothing about einstein. and people who use that quote haven't actually read it in its original context.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7108|United States of America
What are religious beliefs then? I still qualify the beliefs I have (this may sound like tooting my own horn, but whatever), that are strikingly similar to Einstein, as religious. I'll accept that the Bible wasn't chiseled by the lightning of God into stone, but it still is a good guide to being the best human being possible. The characteristics of being selfless, charitable, honest, kind, and forgiving don't need to be taught solely by religion, but just reinforced.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7098|Canberra, AUS
His god was a very different god to what most people see god as.

And I think we have to look at his use of the word 'religion' too - it looks like his 'religious' in the context of the God playing dice quotes and the top quote means simply referring to something above what humans can normally percieve or understand (key word is normally)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7098|Canberra, AUS

twiistaaa wrote:

people who think einstein believed in a personal god knows nothing about einstein. and people who use that quote haven't actually read it in its original context.
I presume you mean the Dice quote, because that's the one I hear used most often incorrectly.

The actual quote was (from memory): "It seems hard to chance a look at God's cards. But to think that he plays dice and uses telepathic methods is something that I cannot believe for a single instant." To which Niehls Bohr responded "Stop telling God what he must do!" (you have to understand quantum mechanics to understand these two quotes)

(I was close. The actual quote I was thinking of is "It seems hard to sneak a look at God's cards. But that He plays dice and uses 'telepathic' methods... is something that I cannot believe for a single moment." In fact the God playing dice originated in some letters he wrote to Max Born, another founder of Quantum mechanics)

Last edited by Spark (2008-05-13 05:10:42)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
chittydog
less busy
+586|7259|Kubra, Damn it!

What I don't understand is why people care so much? Why do they always need further validation of their beliefs (or lack thereof) by packing people onto their team? If having Einstein on your "side" really makes a difference, you should reevaluate your beliefs and start investing your time worshipping a sports team instead. At least then it'll make sense when you care who's on your team.
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|7073|Washington DC

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.
You cannot correlate intelligence with whether or not someone believes in God.   However, when fame or wealth is present with intelligence, it has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, a rejection of a higher power.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7259|Kubra, Damn it!

OrangeHound wrote:

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.
You cannot correlate intelligence with whether or not someone believes in God.   However, when fame or wealth is present with intelligence, it has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, a rejection of a higher power.
And when fame or wealth is present without intelligence, it also has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, an embrace of scientology.
ReTox
Member
+100|6923|State of RETOXification
Most intellectuals see God as something altogether different from the religious ideas of a supreme being.  Taking more of a "we have no concept of what a Godlike being could be" over "He sits on an gold throne and doles out justice to the souls who reach heaven".  That is if they believe in God at all... but most do.

It's not hard to believe in God.  It's not hard to look out into the universe and have the notion that there is much more than we can see or understand.  However, it is very hard to believe that a single person knows enough about God to create an entire religion and not have any of their own bias involved.  That's the rub, no matter what we do we have bias.  And anything made by a human will have a bias to it, especially anything that organizes people towards the same belief.  Simply because most people are too scared to think for themselves and they don't question "why" should I believe this?

I've abandoned religion in favour of spirituality & Buddhism's peacefulness, and it has helped me greatly.  I've never been as calm and content as I am now and have never had life be so easy.  We don't need Clerics, Priests, Rabbis, Imams, or Messiahs to reach that plateau.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

ReTox wrote:

Most intellectuals see God as something altogether different from the religious ideas of a supreme being.  Taking more of a "we have no concept of what a Godlike being could be" over "He sits on an gold throne and doles out justice to the souls who reach heaven".  That is if they believe in God at all... but most do.
Correct. Creationism is not necessarily associated with the institutions of organized religion. Einsteins god was the equation. He was offered the Presidency of Israel but he turned it down.

Hawking is another great Physicist who talks about God quite a bit.
However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God.
For instance: if there is a true answer to "the question of why it is that we and the universe exist" it can only be because, as a matter of fact, the universe was and/or is caused to exist by something outside itself. Even if that is indeed the case it still does not necessarily follow -- as is too often and too easily assumed -- that such a cause must be a personal God capable of harbouring purposes in creating and sustaining us and the universe which we inhabit.
http://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Hawking-U … B000LP6KQW
Xbone Stormsurgezz
madmurre
I suspect something is amiss
+117|7134|Sweden
Religon is for the poor and uneducated once you reach wealth or brilliance god has nothing better to offer you.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7166|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

madmurre wrote:

Religon is for the poor and uneducated once you reach wealth or brilliance god has nothing better to offer you.
you should read "The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari" it's interesting and relevant to your assumption..
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6892

chittydog wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.
You cannot correlate intelligence with whether or not someone believes in God.   However, when fame or wealth is present with intelligence, it has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, a rejection of a higher power.
And when fame or wealth is present without intelligence, it also has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, an embrace of scientology.
But there is no religion to Scientology, just a bunch of unscientific crap that is said to be scientific.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6785|Vancouver

OrangeHound wrote:

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.
You cannot correlate intelligence with whether or not someone believes in God.   However, when fame or wealth is present with intelligence, it has a tendency to produce self-deification and, thus, a rejection of a higher power.
I certainly can correlate intelligence with religious belief. Perhaps it is not as clear as you read Mek-Stizzle's post, but there is a relation. And it certainly does not necessarily have to do with self-deification.
ReTox
Member
+100|6923|State of RETOXification
Religions, all of them are probably perversions or total guesses of what God wants and that is if a God being exists.  If God does exists it also depends on if God really gives a shit or not?  Any intelligent person has to accept that as a possibility.

But consider this, if you can look at the wonders science has shown us in such a short amount of time, then it is likely possible that there is something greater either out there or after this physical existence.  And if you can accept that then you have a belief, however small, in God.  Einstein understood this and could so easily see the schism between religion and God because he did believe.
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|6338|Glendale, CA
Most of the Bible stories are morality tales, and in general, most of the stuff in the New Testament after the Jesus story is heavily dogmatic.
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6993|Portland, OR, USA

ReTox wrote:

Religions, all of them are probably perversions or total guesses of what God wants and that is if a God being exists.  If God does exists it also depends on if God really gives a shit or not?  Any intelligent person has to accept that as a possibility.

But consider this, if you can look at the wonders science has shown us in such a short amount of time, then it is likely possible that there is something greater either out there or after this physical existence.  And if you can accept that then you have a belief, however small, in God.  Einstein understood this and could so easily see the schism between religion and God because he did believe.
incredible scientific advancement =/= the existence of a creator

But we'll all know in a couple of hours lulz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

FallenMorgan wrote:

Most of the Bible stories are morality tales, and in general, most of the stuff in the New Testament after the Jesus story is heavily dogmatic.
I believe the word you are looking for is allegorical.
http://media.putfile.com/Galileo-51
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7098|Canberra, AUS

Kmarion wrote:

ReTox wrote:

Most intellectuals see God as something altogether different from the religious ideas of a supreme being.  Taking more of a "we have no concept of what a Godlike being could be" over "He sits on an gold throne and doles out justice to the souls who reach heaven".  That is if they believe in God at all... but most do.
Correct. Creationism is not necessarily associated with the institutions of organized religion. Einsteins god was the equation. He was offered the Presidency of Israel but he turned it down.

Hawking is another great Physicist who talks about God quite a bit.
However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God.
For instance: if there is a true answer to "the question of why it is that we and the universe exist" it can only be because, as a matter of fact, the universe was and/or is caused to exist by something outside itself. Even if that is indeed the case it still does not necessarily follow -- as is too often and too easily assumed -- that such a cause must be a personal God capable of harbouring purposes in creating and sustaining us and the universe which we inhabit.
http://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Hawking-U … B000LP6KQW
You'll hear plenty of top theoretical physicists talk about God.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6747|New Haven, CT

CommieChipmunk wrote:

ReTox wrote:

Religions, all of them are probably perversions or total guesses of what God wants and that is if a God being exists.  If God does exists it also depends on if God really gives a shit or not?  Any intelligent person has to accept that as a possibility.

But consider this, if you can look at the wonders science has shown us in such a short amount of time, then it is likely possible that there is something greater either out there or after this physical existence.  And if you can accept that then you have a belief, however small, in God.  Einstein understood this and could so easily see the schism between religion and God because he did believe.
incredible scientific advancement =/= the existence of a creator
Not to get into a theological debate, but that isn't necessarily true.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6835|'Murka

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.

About Jews and "Gods chosen people" - Is this actually real (as in, does Judaism/Christianity actually teach that), because if it is. Not trying to start anything, but I can understand why Jews would be persecuted through out history. You can't expect that shit to fly...
Name a monotheistic religion that doesn't view itself as "the one true way" (ie, God's chosen people). It's flown for thousands of years, bro.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ReTox
Member
+100|6923|State of RETOXification

CommieChipmunk wrote:

ReTox wrote:

Religions, all of them are probably perversions or total guesses of what God wants and that is if a God being exists.  If God does exists it also depends on if God really gives a shit or not?  Any intelligent person has to accept that as a possibility.

But consider this, if you can look at the wonders science has shown us in such a short amount of time, then it is likely possible that there is something greater either out there or after this physical existence.  And if you can accept that then you have a belief, however small, in God.  Einstein understood this and could so easily see the schism between religion and God because he did believe.
incredible scientific advancement =/= the existence of a creator

But we'll all know in a couple of hours lulz
I disagree.  Seeing the complexity and beauty of the universe and everything in it unfold in the sciences tells me one thing.  It is all too perfect to be random chance.  And although that doesn't mean there has to be a creator it seems incorrect of me to think that.  It's just too perfect and balanced in my opinion.
liquix
Member
+51|6877|Peoples Republic of Portland

DesertFox- wrote:

What are religious beliefs then? I still qualify the beliefs I have (this may sound like tooting my own horn, but whatever), that are strikingly similar to Einstein, as religious. I'll accept that the Bible wasn't chiseled by the lightning of God into stone, but it still is a good guide to being the best human being possible. The characteristics of being selfless, charitable, honest, kind, and forgiving don't need to be taught solely by religion, but just reinforced.
I love me some beheadings.

There are some good lessons to be found among the various versions of the bible, however I would argue there are just as many bad lessons.  Just go read Deuteronomy ch. 22, you will get your fair share of punishable by death (via hurled stones no less) offenses.
ZombieVampire!
The Gecko
+69|6251

FEOS wrote:

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yeah, nobody can really be that intelligent and yet be religious.

About Jews and "Gods chosen people" - Is this actually real (as in, does Judaism/Christianity actually teach that), because if it is. Not trying to start anything, but I can understand why Jews would be persecuted through out history. You can't expect that shit to fly...
Name a monotheistic religion that doesn't view itself as "the one true way" (ie, God's chosen people). It's flown for thousands of years, bro.
Name a major monotheistic religion which places more emphasis on birth than religious observance, other than Judaeism.

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