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2008-05-14 18:40:59
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6834|'Murka

IRONCHEF wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

If you can cite the source, that'd be a good read..to see what "american authorities" would degrade the constitution even more by doing such a thing.
where is the part that mentions laptops?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ame … nstitution

Aside of the unconstitutional ruling the SCOTUS recently gave allowing searching without probable cause ("security" at the cost of liberty as usual), it is unconstitutional (violates 4th and 14th amendments) to copy data belonging to someone without cause.  Sure it's not on paper, but such electronic data is the same thing, obviously.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
First: THIS IS NOT STALKING. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

Second: Complete, utter bullshit. I agree with you completely, IC.

Third: It's actually impossible for the SCOTUS to make an unconstitutional ruling, since they are the ultimate arbiters of what is constitutional and what isn't. Basically, if they say it's NOT unconstitutional, then it's not...and by default IS constitutional. I think they've screwed up in this ruling, but can't say their ruling is unconstitutional.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-05-14 18:43:27
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6870|Chicago, IL
haven't heard anything about this in the states, I believe you need a search warrant to look at someones computer files.
2008-05-14 19:33:44
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6576|what

This is very serious in terms of copyright and privacy. Especially if your laptop contains your companies business plans, payroll information, employee records, etc.

You really don't want that sort of information to be leaked, let alone copied and stored in a US security database somewhere.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-05-14 19:35:02
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6961|Long Island, New York
https://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/libertas/wp-content/v655555.jpg

Where's V when you really need him?

Last edited by Poseidon (2008-05-14 19:35:10)

2008-05-14 19:42:40
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|7078

ghettoperson wrote:

The Sheriff wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


You can't, the ask for all your passwords and presumably if they don't work they arrest you until you tell them.
Use your iPod/generic portable device with data storage capabilities.
As I understood it, they take (or can do so) all your electronics off you. Cell phones, iPods etc.
I saw an article about this, and it talked about more than just encrypting stuff. You have to actually hide the folders and whatnot on the harddrive and encrypt it so much that it's completely invisible. A lot of work and a big pain, but something you have to go through if you really really must bring your laptop here.
2008-05-15 00:55:39
Nappy
Apprentice
+151|6653|NSW, Australia

HurricaИe wrote:

sex-ray.
fixed
2008-05-15 01:06:51
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7191
oh god. i have to go through the US in July. Might be worth while paying extra $500 go go direct to canada.
2008-05-15 01:07:35
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7265|Cologne, Germany

So they can basically take my laptop, camera, cell phone, or any other electronic device, and keep it for as long as they see fit, without giving a reason, or without having obtained a search warrant ?

wow. It seems America is really turning into a police state...

I wonder what would happpen if I actually gave them my login information, and they started browsing through my data, looking for terrorist plots.
Of course, there is no such data on my laptop, but the process of searching for it would surely take hours, if not days.
What do I do in the meantime, without my laptop, no music, no access to my email, or access to other important information that I have put on my laptop for the journey to the US ?
I know a lot of poeple who take their laptop on every trip they make.

This is insane, and from my point of view, doesn't help improve protection from terrorist activities at all. I mean, seriously, does anyone really think a professional terrorist would actually try to enter the US through regular custosm, with a laptop with incriminating data on it ?

What's next, cavity searches for everyone ?
2008-05-15 03:55:34
PureFodder
Member
+225|6709
So, my question is; what did the airline/tourism industry do to piss of the government that much? Surely things like this aren't good for their business.

Last edited by PureFodder (2008-05-15 03:56:10)

2008-05-15 04:25:44
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|7145|Sydney, Australia

B.Schuss wrote:

This is insane, and from my point of view, doesn't help improve protection from terrorist activities at all. I mean, seriously, does anyone really think a professional terrorist would actually try to enter the US through regular custosm, with a laptop with incriminating data on it ?

What's next, cavity searches for everyone ?
And on a similar note...

I have and use professional photography gear. I get stopped from taking photographs for "security reasons" when I'm in the city sometimes. Seriously, what terrorist would be so fucking obvious when they are out and about 'scouting their locations'? Why don't security people stop every tourist with their point and shoot cameras?!... that's a little less obvious.

Now getting to the laptop issue (and keeping with photography) - sometime next year I'll be traveling to Europe. I'm also looking to hop over to America (I wanna go to NYC!). I'll of course bring all my camera gear, which includes my MacBook Pro. Fuck them if they want to get a copy of all my files. Thousands of photos, thousands of emails, thousands of songs, etc....

Also, how would they do the file copy? via FireWire or USB? It's not like one can access the HardDrive (for a direct connection) of my laptop without cracking it wide open...
2008-05-15 04:34:42
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|7001|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!
One moar reason to remove America from my to-go list....Well, when ill have a laptop, for now i dont care if they try to get my shit...its all home.

Seems like the US want our delicious loli
2008-05-15 05:06:46
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7073

TheAussieReaper wrote:

This is very serious in terms of copyright and privacy. Especially if your laptop contains your companies business plans, payroll information, employee records, etc.

You really don't want that sort of information to be leaked, let alone copied and stored in a US security database somewhere.
That's why if you have data or emails of any vague value to a company, for the past year or so they've been issuing blank laptops to employees traveling to the states. When you get there, you have to use VPN to get to your data.
2008-05-15 08:51:36
globefish23
sophisticated slacker
+334|6747|Graz, Austria

B.Schuss wrote:

So they can basically take my laptop, camera, cell phone, or any other electronic device, and keep it for as long as they see fit, without giving a reason, or without having obtained a search warrant ?
[...]
What's next, cavity searches for everyone ?
Yes.
And they can keep their hands and endoscopes in your ass for as long as they see fit.
2008-05-15 09:12:20
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6949|South Florida
Are you fucking shittin me??

I fucking hate this country. i fucking hate it. im leaving. whos with me?


No, No, are you fucking... shitting... ME?

from that article wrote:

In some cases, random inspections of laptops have yielded evidence of possession of child pornography. Laptops may be scrutinized and subject to a "forensic analysis" under the so-called border search exemption, which allows searches of people entering the United States and their possessions "without probable cause, reasonable suspicion or a warrant," a federal court ruled in July. In that case, the hard drive of a man's laptop was found to contain images of child pornography.
So, they can take your shit and then charge you with whatever your doing illegal.

Thats so unconstitutional. omfg.

its like those fucking police road blocks that CHECK to make sure your doing nothing illegal.

Last edited by Mitch (2008-05-15 09:15:18)

15 more years! 15 more years!
2008-05-15 09:24:25
sgtdude1987
Member
+8|6641|midlands britain
Diplomatic bag ftw
2008-05-15 09:25:48
Surgeons
U shud proabbly f off u fat prik
+3,097|6913|Gogledd Cymru

Mitch wrote:

Thats so unconstitutional. omfg.

its like those fucking police road blocks that CHECK to make sure your doing nothing illegal.
If you aren't doing anything illegal, why worry?

Hiding something?
2008-05-15 09:27:31
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6915|Northern California

FEOS wrote:

Third: It's actually impossible for the SCOTUS to make an unconstitutional ruling, since they are the ultimate arbiters of what is constitutional and what isn't. Basically, if they say it's NOT unconstitutional, then it's not...and by default IS constitutional. I think they've screwed up in this ruling, but can't say their ruling is unconstitutional.
Actually, I think the ruling does say while unconstitutional, it's for the good of security.  And for what it's worth, our forefathers (i'll have to find the quote) have even said that judges decisions are to be feared for their potential to corrupt or destroy the constitution.  So yes, the scotus can make unconstitutional rulings.  THeir decisions can trump constitutionality but they can't replace it or change what it is...as is evident in their ruling.  Let me see if I can find the actual language.

**edit**
K, found it.  THe recent Martinez Fuerte ruling..regarding the legality of border patrol searches inside our borders.

1. The Border Patrol's routine stopping of a vehicle at a permanent checkpoint located on a major highway away from the Mexican border for brief questioning of the vehicle's occupants is consistent with the Fourth Amendment, and the stops and questioning may be made at reasonably located checkpoints in the absence of any individualized suspicion that the particular vehicle contains illegal aliens. Pp. 556-564.

(a) To require that such stops always be based on reasonable suspicion would be

impractical because the flow of traffic tends to be too heavy to allow the particularized study of a given car necessary to identify it as a possible carrier of illegal aliens. Such a requirement also would largely eliminate any deterrent to the conduct of well-disguised smuggling operations, even though smugglers are known to use these highways regularly. Pp. 556-557.

(b) While the need to make routine checkpoint stops is great, the consequent intrusion on Fourth Amendment interests is quite limited, the interference with legitimate traffic being minimal and checkpoint operations involving less discretionary enforcement activity than roving-patrol stops. Pp. 557-560.

(c) Under the circumstances of these checkpoint stops, which do not involve searches, the Government or public interest in making such stops outweighs the constitutionally protected interest of the private citizen. Pp. 560-562.

(d) With respect to the checkpoint involved in No. 74-1560, it is constitutional to refer motorists selectively to a secondary inspection area for limited inquiry on the basis of criteria that would not sustain a roving-patrol stop, since the intrusion is sufficiently minimal that no particularized reason need exist to justify it. Pp. 563-564.


THis is basically abiding the unconstitutional patriot act powers and using them (since there's no precedence of this kind of decision).  And in what I'm reading, this ruling can be overturned or thrown out because it does in fact conflict with the constitution.  Scotus really has no business doing this crap.  But hey, it's what you get when you have, dare I say, "Activist Judges!"  lol

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-05-15 09:36:49)

2008-05-15 09:30:54
NantanCochise
Member
+55|6402|Portugal/United States
What BULLSHIT are you guys so naively downing!!! Are you guys serious. First of all, almost every country in the world has the legal right to search every or any person or objecy entering their country. Even in the European Union the local authorities have the right to do cavity searches without the courts approval. This includes photocopying all documents on any person entering their respective countries. Copying someones hard drive is just the 21st century version although a lot more personal (well at least for some who have kinky porn hidden hastely in some documents folder). Besides I really doubt that this will be a regular activity even if it is true.
2008-05-15 09:46:10
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6915|Northern California

NantanCochise wrote:

What BULLSHIT are you guys so naively downing!!! Are you guys serious. First of all, almost every country in the world has the legal right to search every or any person or objecy entering their country. Even in the European Union the local authorities have the right to do cavity searches without the courts approval. This includes photocopying all documents on any person entering their respective countries. Copying someones hard drive is just the 21st century version although a lot more personal (well at least for some who have kinky porn hidden hastely in some documents folder). Besides I really doubt that this will be a regular activity even if it is true.
My friend, this is why American's raise such a stink and call you and your neighbors commie pigs (if you're not American and wonder why we bellyache so much)...you have no idea what real freedom is like (not that we do anymore, but it's better than many places still!)

The kind of leaders we used to have:


Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
-Patrick Henry

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
Patrick Henry

FOr Americans to violate our constitution and search others' belongings is a clear breach of our freedoms.  As Ben Franklin said, we deserve not freedom or security by yielding freedom for security.  Bush's entire presidency has caused Franklin to turn in his grave..with the USA patriot act, yanking Habeas Corpus, illegally detaining people, not giving them due process, usurping war powers authority from Congress, spying on his own people, etc, etc...ALL in the name of "SECURITY."  But do we feel safe knowing that we are listened to, can be whisked away for our dissent and not given due process or protest, or that we are not secure in our home, our person, or in our papers and effects?  I don't feel safe, and I don't even break those laws!  Anyway, didn't mean to go off on that tangent...but it's clear that you and your country do not understand the beef American's have with losing something we cherish.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-05-15 09:47:20)

2008-05-15 10:03:23
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6949|South Florida

IRONCHEF wrote:

NantanCochise wrote:

What BULLSHIT are you guys so naively downing!!! Are you guys serious. First of all, almost every country in the world has the legal right to search every or any person or objecy entering their country. Even in the European Union the local authorities have the right to do cavity searches without the courts approval. This includes photocopying all documents on any person entering their respective countries. Copying someones hard drive is just the 21st century version although a lot more personal (well at least for some who have kinky porn hidden hastely in some documents folder). Besides I really doubt that this will be a regular activity even if it is true.
My friend, this is why American's raise such a stink and call you and your neighbors commie pigs (if you're not American and wonder why we bellyache so much)...you have no idea what real freedom is like (not that we do anymore, but it's better than many places still!)

The kind of leaders we used to have:


Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
-Patrick Henry

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
Patrick Henry

FOr Americans to violate our constitution and search others' belongings is a clear breach of our freedoms.  As Ben Franklin said, we deserve not freedom or security by yielding freedom for security.  Bush's entire presidency has caused Franklin to turn in his grave..with the USA patriot act, yanking Habeas Corpus, illegally detaining people, not giving them due process, usurping war powers authority from Congress, spying on his own people, etc, etc...ALL in the name of "SECURITY."  But do we feel safe knowing that we are listened to, can be whisked away for our dissent and not given due process or protest, or that we are not secure in our home, our person, or in our papers and effects?  I don't feel safe, and I don't even break those laws!  Anyway, didn't mean to go off on that tangent...but it's clear that you and your country do not understand the beef American's have with losing something we cherish.
A.

FUCKING.

PLUS.

!!!!!

and +1 to you sir!
why cant there be more freedom loving people like you?

edited

Last edited by Mitch (2008-05-15 10:11:42)

15 more years! 15 more years!
2008-05-15 10:06:03
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6915|Northern California
woah buster, i'm not a rational thinker as you say I am...(see other posts i make before judging thus)  But i do surprise myself once in a while..even when i don't plagiarize!  lol
2008-05-15 10:11:34
NantanCochise
Member
+55|6402|Portugal/United States
Where do you see anywhere on my post where I say that I agree with this situation. I was pointing out the obvious. Talking about our freedom and constitutional right will keep me here for a week. Precious time I do not have. Your country is mine and I cherish the constitution just as much as you. Maybe I should of started my last post - "This sucks, this goes against everyhting I stand for - but, bla bla bla".
2008-05-15 10:24:23
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6915|Northern California
Your first line is quite accusatory, and denotes you're talking to us ("you guys") as if we're Americans complaining too much and you're from somewhere else.  My bad.  Sorry for getting all "Captain America" on you and all. 

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-05-15 10:24:56)

2008-05-15 15:43:09
CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6781|CA, USA
i flew to Israel from US in mid February and did not have any issues with my corporate laptop.  maybe i missed the cut off or didn't look like a terrorist.

this is a dumb thing to do IMO because it will take someone forever to scan through all the files, pictures, etc.  Sure it's nice to catch a pedo with kiddy porn (which is one reason this policy was enacted i'm told).  however, what's to stop some TSA guy from downloading an Intel, MicroSoft, or AMD corporate laptop and selling the information?  Some of that stuff is super sensitive (like product roadmaps, process tech, etc).  Oh...and what about people who use turboTax on personal laptops?  TSA employee could sell your identity and you would be screwed.  This opens the door to seeing all your illegal downloads (i'm sure the RIAA's mouth is watering) and illegal unlicensed software too.  i mean why not, you have the data right in front of you.  talk about invasion of privacy. 

Plus, it's not only stupid from a logistical standpoint of manpower needed to scan files and data content, but also i could easily buy a 32GB memory key and store all kinds of things on that and not have it on my HD for the laptop.   Someone already mentioned mailing the DVD backup of your drive ahead of time and just having a vanilla laptop on the plane.  Check it out.  most terrorists are not lacking cash.  i'm sure they could go to Best Buy and plunk down 500 bucks for a shitty laptop at their destination and then take a sledgehammer to it in case they got compromised.   

if you want to get really sophisticated, you could encode messages into pictures.  the file would look like a regular gif of you and your camel but really if you run the decryptor, it would show the location of the iraqi WMDs holed up in syria.

dumb dumb dumb. 

don't even get me started with the shoe thing.  i want to pinch the head off that sh*thead who started the whole shoe-bomb thing.  grrr!
2008-05-15 15:45:48
agent146
Member
+127|6810|Jesus Land aka Canada
so....what if i had a trojan virus on my computer? what will happen then?

 

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